UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2018, 00:34
by zerion
Excluded from cooperative plans in Europe, UK sets groundwork for future fighters

LONDON ― Expectations are growing among industry executives and analysts that the British government will use a huge gathering of international air force chiefs in the U.K. in mid-July to outline a strategy leading to development of a new generation of fighter jets for the post-2040 era.

Left out in the cold by a joint Franco-German plan to develop a new fighter, Ministry of Defence officials ― supported by industry ― have been working for months on a combat air strategy to sustain Britain’s capabilities beyond the Eurofighter Typhoon, and they are determined to figure out a way forward this summer.

With more than 50 air force chiefs from around the world expected to attend the Royal International Air Tattoo at Fairford, southern England, as part of the Royal Air Force’s centenary celebrations, it is likely the British will use the event to kick-start plans to develop an eventual replacement for the Typhoons, which form the backbone of the country’s fighter fleet...

“I do get the impression they will go for something big in the way of an announcement. It could be something along the lines of ‘this is what we would like to do, and we want to do it with partners.’ In part it’s meant to be a bit of a shock to France and Germany,” Wheeldon said...

https://www.defensenews.com/digital-sho ... -fighters/

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2018, 07:27
by geforcerfx
The UK is the type of ally that we can throw them into PCA if they want and the fighter fills there projected needs.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2018, 07:35
by Corsair1963
I could see the UK and US partnering with a number of Asian Countries. To jointly develop a 6th Generation Fighter. With countries like Australia and Japan being high on the list. We could also see somebody like South Korea or even India join in.....think F-35 but an Asian Focus.

:2c:

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2018, 13:35
by zero-one
Corsair1963 wrote:I could see the UK and US partnering with a number of Asian Countries. To jointly develop a 6th Generation Fighter. With countries like Australia and Japan being high on the list. We could also see somebody like South Korea or even India join in.....think F-35 but an Asian Focus.

:2c:


Since the common enemy is China, this is a good venture. Has China overtaken Russia as the top tier adversary already?

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2018, 17:09
by sferrin
I would like to see a UK /Japan /South Korea team up. They'd have all the bases covered.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2018, 17:14
by disconnectedradical
sferrin wrote:I would like to see a UK /Japan /South Korea team up. They'd have all the bases covered.


Japan and South Korea teaming up though?

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2018, 18:36
by sferrin
disconnectedradical wrote:
sferrin wrote:I would like to see a UK /Japan /South Korea team up. They'd have all the bases covered.


Japan and South Korea teaming up though?


Why not? They have a lot of common interests. I wish they'd try to settle their past grudges and move on.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2018, 18:39
by geforcerfx
sferrin wrote:
disconnectedradical wrote:
sferrin wrote:I would like to see a UK /Japan /South Korea team up. They'd have all the bases covered.


Japan and South Korea teaming up though?


Why not? They have a lot of common interests. I wish they'd try to settle their past grudges and move on.


They did a decent amount of mending ties last year with the Nork Nuke threat. I see there relationship like the USA's and Vietnam, it's getting better just needs time, China and Nork accelerated the progress over the last few years.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2018, 19:51
by disconnectedradical
sferrin wrote:
disconnectedradical wrote:
sferrin wrote:I would like to see a UK /Japan /South Korea team up. They'd have all the bases covered.


Japan and South Korea teaming up though?


Why not? They have a lot of common interests. I wish they'd try to settle their past grudges and move on.


Right now they're getting closer but is it close enough to team up on a project like this? I have some South Korean and Japanese friends and let's say the grudges between the two are deep rooted, don't know how much it will change in near future.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 27 Jun 2018, 00:33
by weasel1962
JP-SK team up. Not going to happen.

If anyone has been to Korea, one'd still sees Dokdo adverts on their public transport. Whilst it may appears a win-win for both sides, the underlying politics would prevent any real or meaningful cooperation to enable a successful program. Each already have their own F-X programs. No real incentive to merge anytime.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 27 Jun 2018, 01:11
by eagleowl
And what would there be to 'merge' anyway? It's just going to be something like a work-share agreement for manufacturing. I'd rather be in (for military aviation) Dassault's current position as the sole developer of the Rafale than Airbus as a part of Eurofighter GmbH. (Or BAE as part of the JSF for that matter)

If technology sharing is what's needed then a well defined joint development programs with narrow scopes seem preferable. Like agree to develop Variable cycle engine technology cooperatively and improve any shortfalls in technology needed for a 6th generation fighter. Japan and the UK both have enough money to pay for fighter development without joining themselves at the hip.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 27 Jun 2018, 07:41
by Corsair1963
zero-one wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:I could see the UK and US partnering with a number of Asian Countries. To jointly develop a 6th Generation Fighter. With countries like Australia and Japan being high on the list. We could also see somebody like South Korea or even India join in.....think F-35 but an Asian Focus.

:2c:


Since the common enemy is China, this is a good venture. Has China overtaken Russia as the top tier adversary already?



Easily.....

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 27 Jun 2018, 07:46
by Corsair1963
weasel1962 wrote:JP-SK team up. Not going to happen.

If anyone has been to Korea, one'd still sees Dokdo adverts on their public transport. Whilst it may appears a win-win for both sides, the underlying politics would prevent any real or meaningful cooperation to enable a successful program. Each already have their own F-X programs. No real incentive to merge anytime.



I agree considerable bad feelings still under the surface. Yet, things are slowly improving.....



Also, if the program is similar to the F-35. Then Japan and South Korea would be just partners in a broad sense. (among many) So, I wouldn't rule it out. Of course much likely depend on what happen with North Korea....

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 27 Jun 2018, 12:05
by jakobs
geforcerfx wrote:The UK is the type of ally that we can throw them into PCA if they want and the fighter fills there projected needs.


Not sure if they want to though. Firstly I'm getting the impressions that the PCA will be a much bigger plane and I'm not sure UK is looking in that same direction.

Secondly I would guess that UK don't want their next project to be attached to the US at all simply because of the much smaller role it gives them in the overall project. From whats coming out of London these days focus seems all about the future of their aviation industry.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 27 Jun 2018, 13:23
by sferrin
eagleowl wrote:And what would there be to 'merge' anyway? It's just going to be something like a work-share agreement for manufacturing. I'd rather be in (for military aviation) Dassault's current position as the sole developer of the Rafale than Airbus as a part of Eurofighter GmbH. (Or BAE as part of the JSF for that matter)

If technology sharing is what's needed then a well defined joint development programs with narrow scopes seem preferable. Like agree to develop Variable cycle engine technology cooperatively and improve any shortfalls in technology needed for a 6th generation fighter. Japan and the UK both have enough money to pay for fighter development without joining themselves at the hip.


And yet the US teamed with many nations on the F-35 despite the fact it could have done it all on it's own (see F-22). It's called "sharing the cost of development".

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 28 Jun 2018, 01:00
by Corsair1963
sferrin wrote:
eagleowl wrote:And what would there be to 'merge' anyway? It's just going to be something like a work-share agreement for manufacturing. I'd rather be in (for military aviation) Dassault's current position as the sole developer of the Rafale than Airbus as a part of Eurofighter GmbH. (Or BAE as part of the JSF for that matter)

If technology sharing is what's needed then a well defined joint development programs with narrow scopes seem preferable. Like agree to develop Variable cycle engine technology cooperatively and improve any shortfalls in technology needed for a 6th generation fighter. Japan and the UK both have enough money to pay for fighter development without joining themselves at the hip.


And yet the US teamed with many nations on the F-35 despite the fact it could have done it all on it's own (see F-22). It's called "sharing the cost of development".



The F-35 is already such a leap over the competition. That many countries will be forced to join with the US for a 6th Generation Fighter. If, they have any hope of being competitive..... :shock:

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 28 Jun 2018, 13:43
by sferrin
Corsair1963 wrote:
sferrin wrote:
eagleowl wrote:And what would there be to 'merge' anyway? It's just going to be something like a work-share agreement for manufacturing. I'd rather be in (for military aviation) Dassault's current position as the sole developer of the Rafale than Airbus as a part of Eurofighter GmbH. (Or BAE as part of the JSF for that matter)

If technology sharing is what's needed then a well defined joint development programs with narrow scopes seem preferable. Like agree to develop Variable cycle engine technology cooperatively and improve any shortfalls in technology needed for a 6th generation fighter. Japan and the UK both have enough money to pay for fighter development without joining themselves at the hip.


And yet the US teamed with many nations on the F-35 despite the fact it could have done it all on it's own (see F-22). It's called "sharing the cost of development".


The F-35 is already such a leap over the competition. That many countries will be forced to join with the US for a 6th Generation Fighter. If, they have any hope of being competitive..... :shock:


That's also why I think the UK, SK, and Japan would be better off combining their resources instead of any of them trying to go it alone.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 29 Jun 2018, 12:57
by mixelflick
Given they couldn't develop a 5th gen, what makes them think they can develop a 6th gen? I don't just mean the UK, but whatever European partner nations sign on for this project?

The necessary expertise won't come from the UK, France, certainly not Germany. They did a nice job on their Eurocanards which are very competitive 4th plus gen jets but..... it's like the Russians trying to develop the SU-57 today. With no prior experience in stealth, super-cruise or integrated avionics and without the $, it's really a stretch they'll come up with 6th gen anything..

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 30 Jun 2018, 14:53
by sferrin
mixelflick wrote:Given they couldn't develop a 5th gen, what makes them think they can develop a 6th gen? I don't just mean the UK, but whatever European partner nations sign on for this project?

The necessary expertise won't come from the UK, France, certainly not Germany. They did a nice job on their Eurocanards which are very competitive 4th plus gen jets but..... it's like the Russians trying to develop the SU-57 today. With no prior experience in stealth, super-cruise or integrated avionics and without the $, it's really a stretch they'll come up with 6th gen anything..


China seems to be doing fine (but then they've got full access to all US stealth information pretty much). :doh: :doh: :bang: :bang:

J-20.jpg


32686277401_984b9580e1_o.png

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 30 Jun 2018, 17:54
by mixelflick
Here again, I think you need to question the "China is doing fine" assumption..

We know for example its motors are WAY behind. Further behind than even the Russians. So no supercruise, which is a key component of a true gen 5 aircraft. And "full access" to US stealth information? Yes, there has been some espionage. But full access is taking it too far. Knowing and having the mass production, fine tolerances to build fleets of said stealth fighters is another matter altogether.

We assume stealth, but little is known (or made public) as to its true stealth capabilities. If the Indian claim of SU-30MKI's detecting the J-20 are to be believed, that assumption is out the window too. Integrated avionics and superior SA? Nobody knows. But given the engine issues and less than all aspect stealth, I wouldn't be betting the farm it has those either.

What we may be seeing is something with better stealth qualities vs. the SU-57, but considerably worse than the F-117. That puts it somewhere in the neighborhood of a better Super Hornet (RCS wise), but still quite visible vs. the F-22 and F-35. It won't be a super-cruiser (at least initially), and it'll have better SA than their J-10C/J-11 variants, but likely far short of what the F-22 and 35 have achieved.

What is clear: Designing and fielding 5th gen aircraft is a spendy, time consuming process that took the US fully 3 generations of stealth to get it to where it is today. The likelihood that Russia, China or anyone else getting that right on its first try is (to put it mildly), unlikely...

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 30 Jun 2018, 19:54
by sferrin
Yes, "full access" was an obvious exaggeration, but sometimes it sure seems that way. Just look at how fast they're progressing due to cyber espionage giving them a leg up, and how many weapon systems they're copying. As for the engine situation:

comparison-between-al-31f-and-ws-15.jpg


WS-15 on the right.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 30 Jun 2018, 20:54
by wrightwing
Looks like they have some LOANesque nozzles, too.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 01 Jul 2018, 03:19
by weasel1962
Even if China is not doing fine today, its not just the snapshot but as important is the growth trajectory. The gap is closing. The trajectory is what Trump is trying to derail.

Its reaching an inflection point that the Chinese think there's not much else to copy. Instead the focus is shifting towards what else they can develop to gain an edge. The PLAAF is not waiting for a 6 gen plane to appear to copy. They are already thinking what it should look like.

Like the F-35, the J20 will continue to integrate new tech including new engines etc. The J-20 may not be stealthy but it is clearly stealthier, without external items, than legacy fighters. If America is going to fight China today, sure, the snapshot is important. However China isn't looking at fighting America today, its looking into the future.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 01 Jul 2018, 11:11
by marsavian
PCA would be a good fit for UK/Japan/Australia. They all have to defend islands/continent over large sea distances so require performance/range/persistence that the PCA would provide. Would also lower the cost for the US in providing more production numbers. Israel would probably pick up a few too to replace their F-15E/I on the long range strike role. Broadly I see the PCA being the generic F-15 replacement that F-22 was supposed to be.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 01 Jul 2018, 17:14
by mixelflick
marsavian wrote:PCA would be a good fit for UK/Japan/Australia. They all have to defend islands/continent over large sea distances so require performance/range/persistence that the PCA would provide. Would also lower the cost for the US in providing more production numbers. Israel would probably pick up a few too to replace their F-15E/I on the long range strike role. Broadly I see the PCA being the generic F-15 replacement that F-22 was supposed to be.


Really? I wasn't thinking that at all...

PCA will likely break new ground insofar as having the persistence/range closer to a bomber vs. fighter. That means an airframe bigger than today's fighters, again closer to FB-111/B-58 size vs. F-15/F-22. It's radar and sensors will be more comparable to JSTARS than the typical AESA/fighter airframe of today, and a laser/directed energy weapon means it'll be a big bird as well. All of that points to a new, more strategic role for it escorting B-21 Raiders and perhaps unmanned platforms during ISR sorties, along with more typical air superiority missions.

Here's the big question: Will the Navy try and field a carrier borne version? They've been out of the air superiority biz for a long time now, and seem to favor the "strike fighter" thing ala the SH, F-35 etc.. They've done so because of $ of course, betting the farm said strike fighters can wrestle control of the air away from the enemy vs. having a dedicated fighter for that mission (last seen in 2006, when the Tomcat was retired).

I'm afraid it's going to be a LONG time before we see such an aircraft again, at least in USN service. I hope they don't have to learn that lesson the hard way. Hopefully, the F-35 can carry that load, but it's no F-22. And with only around 350 of them, air superiority hangs on a particularly perilous string...

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 01 Jul 2018, 17:19
by rheonomic
mixelflick wrote:Here's the big question: Will the Navy try and field a carrier borne version?

Navy NGAD will probably be distinct from whatever the Air Force does.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 02 Jul 2018, 03:07
by Corsair1963
rheonomic wrote:
mixelflick wrote:Here's the big question: Will the Navy try and field a carrier borne version?

Navy NGAD will probably be distinct from whatever the Air Force does.




That is the plan but can the US Government really afford to fund two 6th Generation Fighter Programs???

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 02 Jul 2018, 13:33
by marsavian
mixelflick wrote:
marsavian wrote:PCA would be a good fit for UK/Japan/Australia. They all have to defend islands/continent over large sea distances so require performance/range/persistence that the PCA would provide. Would also lower the cost for the US in providing more production numbers. Israel would probably pick up a few too to replace their F-15E/I on the long range strike role. Broadly I see the PCA being the generic F-15 replacement that F-22 was supposed to be.


Really? I wasn't thinking that at all...

PCA will likely break new ground insofar as having the persistence/range closer to a bomber vs. fighter. That means an airframe bigger than today's fighters, again closer to FB-111/B-58 size vs. F-15/F-22. It's radar and sensors will be more comparable to JSTARS than the typical AESA/fighter airframe of today, and a laser/directed energy weapon means it'll be a big bird as well. All of that points to a new, more strategic role for it escorting B-21 Raiders and perhaps unmanned platforms during ISR sorties, along with more typical air superiority missions.

Here's the big question: Will the Navy try and field a carrier borne version? They've been out of the air superiority biz for a long time now, and seem to favor the "strike fighter" thing ala the SH, F-35 etc.. They've done so because of $ of course, betting the farm said strike fighters can wrestle control of the air away from the enemy vs. having a dedicated fighter for that mission (last seen in 2006, when the Tomcat was retired).

I'm afraid it's going to be a LONG time before we see such an aircraft again, at least in USN service. I hope they don't have to learn that lesson the hard way. Hopefully, the F-35 can carry that load, but it's no F-22. And with only around 350 of them, air superiority hangs on a particularly perilous string...


I don't disagree with your assertion that it would be FB-111/B-58 size maybe even bigger but with two F-135 Advent engines giving around 100 klbf total wet thrust it would still be taking off with a thrust/weight ratio around unity just like the F-15 but with much more range and stealth. A big wing to carry all that fuel would also give a reasonable wing loading. The thrust advances of modern engines make a long range escort interceptor also capable of being agile with a good design.

As to what the Navy will do no doubt they will engineer a contest which only a future Boeing aircraft can win ;).

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 02 Jul 2018, 14:20
by mixelflick
Jesus, you're right.

You just know that Boeing has something based on the Hornet ready to go. They've already marketed the Super Duper, so God knows what they'll call it this time. My grandchildren will be cursed with seeing Hornet derivatives flying from the decks of super-carriers. I was hoping I'd see those damned F-18's fly off into the sunset before I die, but all hope was lost when the Navy said "yes" to the block III upgrade...

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 03 Jul 2018, 17:00
by XanderCrews
The UK hasn't built a fighter by itself since the 1960s.


The odds of the south Korea, north Korea, and japan all joining to build a fighter are higher than the UK building it's own fighter all by itself

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 03 Jul 2018, 17:00
by XanderCrews
The UK hasn't built a fighter by itself since the 1960s.


The odds of the south Korea, north Korea, and japan all joining to build a fighter are higher than the UK building it's own fighter all by itself

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 03 Jul 2018, 17:26
by talkitron
Here is a long background article on the UK's upcoming strategy decision on whether and how to develop a sixth generation aircraft. Here is a quote from the section on potential partners.

UK mulls sixth generation fighter project

Meanwhile, defence analyst and commentator Howard Wheeldon has this view on potential partners: “My preference for a sixth-generation combat aircraft (or system) development would be for a collaboration on manned aircraft development based on relatively small numbers of aircraft being required and that would involve France, Britain, Germany and Italy. Alongside this, however, I would like to see the UK alone invest more into unmanned combat air capability development on its own or with a chosen partner. My second option would be for the UK to come together with Sweden and maybe some other Nordic states to develop next generation manned and unmanned combat aircraft capability. UK Typhoon export customers may well wish to have some involvement in this and it has not escaped my notice that the UK/Turkey TF-X manned combat aircraft capability development might also play into this idea.”

Wheeldon also cautions that, given the disparity between the US defence budget and rest of the world, “from a potential development cost and affordability basis, further collaborative partnerships with the US would seem to be unlikely” for a piloted sixth-generation combat aircraft.

The UK going it alone, however, says Hayward is: “impossible to contemplate” as an “independent development is far too expensive.” Barrie concurs: “Going it alone for a full blown programme doesn’t strike me as feasible. Given that it took near a decade (1975-1985) for the shape of the previous European combat aircraft developments to shake out, I suspect it may take some time for partnership structures to emerge, including on the Franco-German effort and on wherever the UK goes. A mix and match of traditional and new partners is an option, with perhaps some at the systems level only rather than on any whole project.”




https://www.aerosociety.com/news/uk-mul ... r-project/

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 03 Jul 2018, 17:37
by SpudmanWP
I love how many people throw around the "6th Gen" phrase before it's been defined and without having any "5th Gen" experience.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 03 Jul 2018, 18:17
by talkitron
The article is correct that to have a fighter ready in 2040 (on a European budget) you have to start spending money now. So you have to guess at what a sixth generation fighter will be now. We will see if the UK release more specifics with the upcoming combat aircraft industrial strategy document.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 03 Jul 2018, 20:58
by SpudmanWP
Saying "sixth generation fighter" means that you plan on having something that will differentiate from the current Gen in a significant way. Claiming that your new fighter will somehow be significantly better than something that you yourself did not develop & have no experience in building is what I find funny. You can't skip a Gen just by saying so.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 04 Jul 2018, 14:07
by mixelflick
It is increasingly clear that even if a country has the expertise (doubtful), they lack the $ necessary to fund a 5th generation fighter's development and deployment. Thus far it's a small club with the expertise (U.S. and presumably, China). The cost is astronomical, and there's no guarantee of success either. Very possible a country or partner countries could spend billions and at the end of the day, not have a viable product.

How then they propose to build a 6th gen is beyond me. At some point you have to put national pride aside and deal with reality IMO

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 04 Jul 2018, 16:22
by talkitron
We are talking about a fighter entering service in 2040. The UK (perhaps with some partners like Sweden) could build a F-35 clone with a few twists by 2040. Would it be better than new production F-35s in 2040? That is unclear; probably not given that a new build Typhoon (like for Kuwait) is probably slightly better in air-to-air and moderately worse in air-to-ground than a new build F-15E (like the F-15SA for Saudi Arabia).

The UK itself is fielding F-35s so the UK realizes it must do better than the F-35 in some dimensions in order to have a viable commercial product in 2040. Hence the need to speculate about what comes next: unmanned, manned control of unmanned wingmen, energy weapons, hypersonic speed, etc.

The higher speed engines might be good for Rolls-Royce's commercial business as well.

Here is a more news release-based article on this topic.

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/bae-awa ... stem-work/

BAE awarded contract for Future Combat Air System work

A key aspect of this procurement’s single source justification is MOD cumulative investment (over a number of decades) into BAE Systems (Operations) Ltd, as the UK’s lead Air systems integrator.

During this time BAE Systems (Operations) Ltd have built up a unique level of credible and capable technical expertise and Suitably Qualified Experienced Personnel (SQEP), and is necessary for the integrated delivery of concepts, associated requirements and the application of technology.


Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 05 Jul 2018, 16:37
by talkitron
There are going to be a lot of these UK next gen fighter articles leading up to the release of the combat air strategy, even though that document will be light on details. Here is an article on the UK possibly partnering with Sweden.

https://www.ft.com/content/818c6b98-7fc ... 1a0846c475

UK in talks with Sweden over next-generation fighter jet

The statement is expected to set out the criteria for international collaboration, stressing that the UK intends to play a leading design role in any partnership to develop a fighter to replace the Typhoon jet from 2040. Sweden — whose defence flagship, Saab, makes the Gripen combat aircraft — has indicated its potential interest and would be a natural partner, according to several sources.

The strategy will aim to do just that and will be a “strong statement of national interest”, according to one person close to the subject. However, it will not mention the Franco-German accord and will deliberately leave the door open to other partners. As well as Sweden, Japan and South Korea could be potential partners, industry sources said.


Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 05 Jul 2018, 19:30
by jakobs
I would love for us to join the UK. I think both Sweden and UK would get bigger industrial benefits in such a program rather than if any of the two joined France and Germany.

Not sure about bringing in Japan, they are way to much in bed with US on such issues. I have a very hard time seeing them abandon that for a European project.

Not sure about South Korea, but they seem very eager to get their own project going without other major countries involved except for component supply. Similar to what we in Sweden have been doing I would say.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 10 Jul 2018, 18:59
by talkitron
This is a workshop related to UK industrial policy in the combat aircraft sector. Likely the title is more exciting than the content for many here. I put one nice quote below.

https://t.co/fuZdskhFyJ

UK Combat Air – The Next Generation

If you don’t control the concept design, you do not control the programme. The end design emerges from a proper process/dialogue of . Design and requirements co-evolve through exploring what you can afford through-life. This means ensuring adaptability is designed in from the beginning with features like modularity and adequate margins for future sub-systems and aircraft supporting systems (weight, power, etc.). Concept exploration should push the boundaries and constraints because it is often constraints that prevent maximising aspects like adaptability and minimising supportability and sustainability.


Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 12 Jul 2018, 00:22
by talkitron
This article about a new UK fighter has a few newsworthy paragraphs about the concept work and competition with the French and Germans.


Why an unmanned fighter fleet isn’t yet viable, in the words of Britain’s Air Force chief

Tempest ― an industry grouping comprising BAE Systems, Leonardo, MBDA and Rolls-Royce ― has been doing conceptual work with the Royal Air Force rapid capability office since at least the turn of the year on the sort of capabilities any future fighter might need.

A second phase of work is now in discussion between the Tempest participants.

Whatever the combat air strategy looks like, Hillier has given notice that it will be different from a Franco-German offering.

“I don’t feel the U.K. role is to chase after France and Germany. We want to define what’s best for us and we will bring other nations with us. If in the future it includes France and Germany, that will be healthy as well,“ he said.

“What we are not going to do is just follow where other nations go. We have world-leading capabilities, we are going to define what we are going to do in the future and we are going to draw other nations towards us,” he added. “We have a leading role in the Typhoon [program] and a significant role on the F-35. This is what we are capable of, and from a U.K. perspective we intend to continue to have that position in [the] future.”


https://www.defensenews.com/digital-sho ... rce-chief/

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 12 Jul 2018, 01:50
by madrat
Tempest always was an unexciting and uninspiring name to me. Names like Hurricane and Spitfire evoke emotion. Wyvern even elicits a fantasy concept that beckons knights in shining armor battling fire-breathing dragons. Tempest? Not so much. Sounds like a reference to one of Shakespeare's more underwhelming themes for a play, maybe even makes me think it was one of his flops. Even Mosquito would be a better namesake, especially for a performance twin-engine fighter void of as much metal as possible.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 13 Jul 2018, 00:37
by talkitron
I like the name Tempest. :D It fits in with Hurricane and Typhoon.

Here is the RAF Air Power 2018 magazine; 2018 is the 100th anniversary of the RAF. There are short articles by many of the top brass. There is not what I would call true news in this publication but many people might find summaries of some of what is going on with the RAF interesting.

https://issuu.com/globalmediapartners/d ... power_2018

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 16 Jul 2018, 11:46
by talkitron
The UK Combat Air Strategy: An ambitious vision for the future is out. Happy reading! There will be many articles summarizing this over the next few days. There is also a mockup of a Tempest fighter at the UK air show going on right now.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... Lowres.pdf

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 16 Jul 2018, 14:40
by talkitron
Here is the BAE news article on today’s announcements. It seems like the Tempest is being sold on flexibility more than absolute performance. It will be easier to upgrade and more modular in its payload than current combat aircraft. Here is a quote. The page also has an animated graphic.

Depending on the mission, ‘role fit’ additions such as low observable conformal fuel tanks, weapons dispensers, air launched UAV dispensers, large modular sensors, long range oblique photography systems for reconnaissance and Laser Directed Energy Weapons could be available.


The BAE article mentions some medium term additions to Typhoon:

1. Spear Cap 3 ground attack missile
2. Enhancement to Storm Shadow cruise missile
3. New helmet
4. Lightning V target pod
5. BriteCloud, more flares
6. AESA radar (E-Scan)

https://www.baesystems.com/en/feature/t ... gn=fia2018

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 16 Jul 2018, 14:53
by marsavian

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 16 Jul 2018, 16:28
by zhangmdev
Tempest is a nice name. The concept reminds me of Monica.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 16 Jul 2018, 18:34
by talkitron
Here is an article saying budget realities surrounding the Tempest program will reduce the UK F-35 buy in the 2030's. The author speculates on the military features of the shape of the air frame.

The various artworks and the demonstrator model all includes canted vertical stabilisers, which are a feature on all currently operational fighter aircraft, but not the US Air Force’s famous B-2 Spirit stealth bomber, or various flying wing/cranked kite shapes that have come to characterise unmanned combat aerial vehicle (UCAV) demonstrators produced around the world, including Taranis, nEUROn, Sharp Sword, SCAT and X-47B. Vertical stabilisers indicate a design preference for fighter-like agility since they aid horizontal stability during manoeuvres, especially in extreme flight regimes. However, they also limit the extent to which an aircraft’s radar signature can be reduced, especially against low-frequency ‘anti-stealth’ type radars. Because of this, and the fact that some argue the agility of modern missiles make dogfighting redundant in future air combat, most concept art from US defence companies in recent years have not included vertical stabilisers, presumably to aid stealth against advanced and future radar systems.


The Typhoon programme cost the UK around £17 billion in development and acquisition costs for 160 aircraft. Tempest promises to be an even more ambitious undertaking, despite the progress made in various critical technologies in both the defence and civilian sectors since the 1980s when Typhoon was conceived. Assuming no major uplift in defence spending, the RAF and MoD will have to find significant funding within the equipment programme for the Tempest project if it is to have any hope of producing a real combat aircraft. Unfortunately, that is likely to be very difficult without adjusting the number of F-35s that the UK will eventually buy from the US, given that the continued public commitment to 138 of the stealth fighters will not be delivered on current funding timelines until the late 2030s at the earliest. Based on current defence spending assumptions, it is unlikely that the MoD will be able to adequately fund the testing and procurement phases of the Tempest while buying significant numbers of F-35s and maintaining an increasingly aging core Typhoon force as the latter approaches its eventual out of service date of approximately 2040. Something will eventually have to give.


https://rusi.org/publication/rusi-defen ... er-tempest

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 16 Jul 2018, 21:50
by milosh
Spaced engines, long central weapon bay/bays, tail sting with some sensor (maybe radar), and maybe some radar in wings? Pak-Faski :D

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 17 Jul 2018, 01:47
by Corsair1963
[quote="talkitron"]Here is an article saying budget realities surrounding the Tempest program will reduce the UK F-35 buy in the 2030's. The author speculates on the military features of the shape of the air frame.


Wild speculation nothing more. Especially, consider this so called Tempest is nothing but a "concept" at this stage.....

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 17 Jul 2018, 09:38
by citanon
Is it just me, or is this thing what the X32 would have looked like had the designers not been determined to make it ugly as sin:

Image

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 17 Jul 2018, 10:02
by Corsair1963
zhangmdev wrote:Tempest is a nice name. The concept reminds me of Monica.





Honestly, appear to similar to the existing F-35....

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 17 Jul 2018, 11:58
by zhangmdev
X-32 with twin DSI, and engines at the right places.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 17 Jul 2018, 14:56
by vilters
Even from this angle, I can clearly see a pretty basic aerodynamic error.
I hope they discover it before moving on.

Tip :
Look at a F-22 or an F-35 from a side view.
Then imagine this from a side view.
From the air intakes forward.
=> That whole nose section should be tilted DOWNwards around 2.5 to 3°, or the nose will always be at an angle of attack during level flight. => Drag.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 17 Jul 2018, 16:34
by SpudmanWP
So.. Anyone got any good "Tempest in a Teapot" jokes?

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 21:42
by barrelnut


Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 23:39
by count_to_10
vilters wrote:Even from this angle, I can clearly see a pretty basic aerodynamic error.
I hope they discover it before moving on.

Tip :
Look at a F-22 or an F-35 from a side view.
Then imagine this from a side view.
From the air intakes forward.
=> That whole nose section should be tilted DOWNwards around 2.5 to 3°, or the nose will always be at an angle of attack during level flight. => Drag.

That’s also lift. But there is a point there: the nose should be tilted down so that it doesn’t contribute to positive stability.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 19 Jul 2018, 23:17
by mixelflick
citanon wrote:Is it just me, or is this thing what the X32 would have looked like had the designers not been determined to make it ugly as sin:

Image


From this angle, it doesn't look half bad.

From the front or side, it looked like a pregnant guppy. Ugly as sin, as you say... :)

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 20 Jul 2018, 01:08
by madrat
Could have look like a droopy-faced beagle
Image

Although it looked cool at some angles, Boeing was wise at least to avoid a canard.
Image

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 20 Jul 2018, 13:22
by mixelflick
The Mig I.44 was a beautiful machine IMO...

Was never going to be stealthy, but I loved the layout. Spoke to speed, speed and more speed LOL. No sure how "supermaneuverable" it would have been, but it looks like a rocket ship IMO. Almost like a cross between the Typhoon and F-22....

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 21 Jul 2018, 00:48
by marsavian

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 21 Jul 2018, 16:40
by jetblast16
Tempest: Inside The Fighter Jet Of The Future | Forces TV


Hahaha...yeah, right. I like how they have all these hand gestures to control the displays. Liked to see how that would work when pulling Gs.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 21 Jul 2018, 17:00
by zero-one
jetblast16 wrote:
Hahaha...yeah, right. I like how they have all these hand gestures to control the displays. Liked to see how that would work when pulling Gs.


The thing has a cranked delta wing design with no tail and no canards. It looks similar to the X-32's design which did not meet the US Navy's requirements for maneuverability which is why they redesigned it to a conventional tail and wing.

The two X-32 aircraft featured a delta wing design. However, eight months into construction of the concept demonstrator aircraft, the JSF's maneuverability and payload requirements were refined at the request of the Navy and Boeing's delta wing design fell short of the new targets. Engineers altered the aircraft's design with a conventional canted twin tail (narrowly beating out a Pelikan tail) that reduced weight and improved agility, but it was too late to change the aircraft. It was judged that they would be sufficient to demonstrate Boeing's technology.


The twin tails are also noticeably smaller, so unless any of our experts say otherwise, I think the maneuvering requirements for the thing will be quite modest. They may not be expecting to pull a lot of Gs in this thing.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 23 Jul 2018, 22:17
by count_to_10
jetblast16 wrote:
Tempest: Inside The Fighter Jet Of The Future | Forces TV


Hahaha...yeah, right. I like how they have all these hand gestures to control the displays. Liked to see how that would work when pulling Gs.

You have to be really confident that the helmet will never glitch to get rid of all cockpit displays. Particularly when they can weigh as little as a few pounds.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 23 Jul 2018, 23:03
by SpudmanWP
jetblast16 wrote: Liked to see how that would work when pulling Gs.

Voice control, in English, with a Texas accent. :roll:

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2018, 08:46
by zero-one
count_to_10 wrote:You have to be really confident that the helmet will never glitch to get rid of all cockpit displays. Particularly when they can weigh as little as a few pounds.



Well that seems unfair if we have absolute confidence in the F-35's HMD. I see no reason for the Tempest to have this kind of issue.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 25 Jul 2018, 01:31
by jetblast16


They should have called this thing Spitfire II

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 25 Jul 2018, 06:01
by Corsair1963
Nothing wrong with Tempest.... :twisted:

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 25 Jul 2018, 08:45
by marsavian
For those who don't know Tempest was a UK WWII fighter/bomber plane derived from the Hawker Typhoon so that's why history is repeating itself in this Typhoon-Tempest sequel naming.

Image

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawker_Tempest

The Hawker Tempest is a British fighter aircraft primarily used by the Royal Air Force (RAF) in the Second World War. The Tempest, originally known as the Typhoon II, was an improved derivative of the Hawker Typhoon, intended to address the Typhoon's unexpected fall-off of performance at high altitude by replacing its wing with a thinner laminar flow design. Having diverged considerably from the Typhoon, it was chosen to rename the aircraft Tempest. The Tempest emerged as one of the most powerful fighters of World War II and was the fastest single-engine propeller-driven aircraft of the war at low altitude.

Upon entering service in 1944, the Tempest was used as a low-level interceptor, particularly against the V-1 flying bomb threat, and as a ground attack platform, in which it supported major events such as Operation Market Garden. Later, it successfully targeted the rail infrastructure in Germany and Luftwaffe aircraft on the ground, as well as countering such attacks by German fighters. The Tempest was effective in the low-level interception role, including against newly developed jet-propelled aircraft such as the Messerschmitt Me 262.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 25 Jul 2018, 09:45
by zero-one
jetblast16 wrote:
They should have called this thing Spitfire II


I wonder if this would hurt the Luftwaffe. The Spitfire was responsible for a lot of their airmen's deaths. And is largely credited with winning the Battle of Britain (Although the Huricane had more kills)

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 25 Jul 2018, 14:56
by jetblast16
I wonder if this would hurt the Luftwaffe.
Upon entering service in 1944, the Tempest was used as a low-level interceptor, particularly against the V-1 flying bomb threat, and as a ground attack platform, in which it supported major events such as Operation Market Garden. Later, it successfully targeted the rail infrastructure in Germany and Luftwaffe aircraft on the ground, as well as countering such attacks by German fighters. The Tempest was effective in the low-level interception role, including against newly developed jet-propelled aircraft such as the Messerschmitt Me 262.


Six of one, half a dozen of the other? I like Spitfire II; stealthy, possibly tail-less, super-cruiser, heading out over the North Atlantic, spittin' fire (rays of invisible heat aka laser energy) 8)

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 25 Jul 2018, 21:57
by sprstdlyscottsmn
It could only be Spitfire II if it was also jaw-droppingly beautiful to see and hear.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 25 Jul 2018, 22:13
by marsavian
The Luftwaffe is not going to be buying it so the UK can name it anything it wants. You can see a business model method to this madness really as there are a lot of Typhoon customers in the Middle East who would like a stealthy successor without the Israelis vetoing it through their US connections if it was a US aircraft. As its innards and weapons would be derived from the last Typhoons there would also be synergy there from the investment these customers have already made. Without Franco/German requirements holding back development they can get this sorted at a time of their choosing to seamlessly take over for Typhoon replacements in the 2035+ time frame.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 31 Jul 2018, 18:03
by basher54321
Jim Smith had significant technical roles in the development of the UK’s leading military aviation programmes. From ASRAAM and Nimrod, to the JSF and Eurofighter Typhoon. We asked his opinion on what we can learn from looking at Britain’s next potential fighter, Project Tempest.


https://hushkit.net/2018/07/19/project- ... l-liaison/

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 01 Aug 2018, 01:22
by jetblast16
Kinda makes you wonder where the US is at on its 6th gen fighter programmes, PCA or whatever you like to call it.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 01 Aug 2018, 01:37
by Corsair1963
jetblast16 wrote:Kinda makes you wonder where the US is at on its 6th gen fighter programmes, PCA or whatever you like to call it.



From all reports still in the early concept stages. Yet, considering on how little we really know about the F-35 and what it's ultimately capable of. It should hardly be a surprise....


Honestly, to me the Tempest looks closer to a 5.5 Generation Fighter than a true 6th Generation Fighter. (i.e. leap) Yet, after the Typhoon and Rafale. It's hard to imagine the UK would repeat the same mistake again???

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 01 Aug 2018, 02:33
by jetblast16
It's very early in the programme. Admittedly, the cockpit concept was pretty impressive, minus some concerns about the hand gestures required to interact with it. Overall, I found the actual aircraft concept vehicle to be fairly unimpressive. They did state in one of the videos that the 'Tempest' or whatever they decide to call/label it in the future could look much different than what was presented at the show. At any rate, the US needs to start finalizing some concepts to pursue if they have any hope of fielding a system (possibly systems) in the next 20 years or so to replace the Raptor, Super Hornet, etc.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 01 Aug 2018, 16:57
by marsavian
As a collective group of aviation enthusiasts we should not get sucked up to manufacturers claims of post 5th generation aircraft until everyone agrees what 6th generation aircraft really are. Nothing I have seen proposed looks revolutionary compared to the F-35 which
is the quintessential mass produced 5th generation fighter. It really does have to have quantum leaps in capability to justify a next generation moniker.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 26 Sep 2019, 22:03
by marsavian
MBDA unveils Team Tempest weapon system concepts

https://www.janes.com/article/91538/mbd ... m-concepts

Working with Leonardo and BAE Systems, MBDA is advancing a hard-kill defensive aid system (HK-DAS) concept as part of the platform's integrated defensive system. Designed to track, target, and intercept incoming missiles, HK-DAS is a compact < 1 m length, 10 kg-class imaging infrared (IIR) hit-to-kill missile, released from launchers integrated within the platform airframe. In keeping with its commonality, modularity, and reuse principle, the company is also considering, as part of the same conceptual family, a scalable Ground Attack Micromissile in the same form factor, but furnished with a small explosive payload to enable a close-air support role from the platform.


Image

Team Tempest WVRAAM weapons concepts – foreground: Increased Calibre WVRAAM; behind: WVRAAM twin pack Source: MBDA

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 27 Sep 2019, 16:30
by mixelflick
marsavian wrote:As a collective group of aviation enthusiasts we should not get sucked up to manufacturers claims of post 5th generation aircraft until everyone agrees what 6th generation aircraft really are. Nothing I have seen proposed looks revolutionary compared to the F-35 which
is the quintessential mass produced 5th generation fighter. It really does have to have quantum leaps in capability to justify a next generation moniker.


If you're talking about Tempest, I wholeheartedly agree.

If OTOH you're talking about PCA, I'm not sure the last part of your statement squares up. Last I heard, USAF was more concerned with getting something fielded timely, or at least a lot more timely than F-22/35 development. As such, it may or may not be a quantum leap. This is pure speculation, but I believe PCA is farther along in development than what's been made known. Something is driving the Russians to speed field the SU-57, and it looks like work on the Hunter drone is accelerating too.

Their prior statements about SU-35/SU-30SM's/Mig-29's being "adequate to meet the threat, SU-57 can wait etc.".... you don't hear them singing that song anymore. I suppose it may be a realization the F-35 is better than advertised too, but something is driving modernization efforts. If I was a betting man, I'd say Pratt or GE have made a breakthrough in engine technology and more importantly, made it affordable. If we lead in anything, it's engine tech. That might be what's causing them some concern..

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 27 Sep 2019, 17:17
by marsavian
Sixth generation will be hypersonic aircraft, a true quantum leap, ushered in hopefully with the SR-72. Any other future stealth highly networked aircraft will still be 5th generation no matter how much marketing BS the manufacturers spin.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 28 Sep 2019, 15:06
by mixelflick
marsavian wrote:Sixth generation will be hypersonic aircraft, a true quantum leap, ushered in hopefully with the SR-72. Any other future stealth highly networked aircraft will still be 5th generation no matter how much marketing BS the manufacturers spin.


Interesting criteria. So if PCA isn't hypersonic but has other ground breaking technology (in sensors, engines or weapons), you wouldn't say it qualifies as "6th gen"?

That wouldn't be my criteria, but I respect yours. I think the odds PCA will be hyper-sonic are incredibly low, especially if the Air Force wants it anytime soon. It seems we're having a hard enough time getting a hypersonic missile/weapon, nevermind manned aircraft. The SR-72 is rumored to be hypersonic, but translating that into a new airframe with an air dominance mission seems unlikely. And expensive as hell, leading to low production numbers and a high per unit cost.

But perhaps you're right. I guess time will tell.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 28 Sep 2019, 17:36
by marsavian
The SR-72 is rumored to be hypersonic, but translating that into a new airframe with an air dominance mission seems unlikely.


Hypersonic aircraft will not only fly fast but high as well. Look at all the fits SR-71 gave aircraft trying to intercept it now imagine something going nearly twice as fast. As a bomber it will have unique features in how far it can release ordinance from an internal bay way beyond any delivery platform now. Think of it as a possible replacement for the B-1A which never got built.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 28 Sep 2019, 19:11
by inst
marsavian wrote:Sixth generation will be hypersonic aircraft, a true quantum leap, ushered in hopefully with the SR-72. Any other future stealth highly networked aircraft will still be 5th generation no matter how much marketing BS the manufacturers spin.


It is possible that "6th generation" systems in development will be closer to 5.5th generation. I'd define a generational leap as being able to soundly defeat the earliest variants of the previous generation. The F-15, for instance, was able to defeat all Soviet 3rd generation fighters as a member of the 4th generation, although the MiG-25 had tactics that could have defeated the F-15 or at least put it back to a 1:1 loss ratio (slow speed, fire first with the radar range, then zoom out of F-15 NEZ).

Systems that can do that would be, first, hypersonic aircraft that can outrun enemy missiles or render interception impossible. Another would be unmanned high-agility aircraft, which could bypass the G-limits of existing air-to-air missiles. A third would be hard-kill laser weapons, which could shoot down enemy air-to-air missiles as well as enemy aircraft. A true 6th generation aircraft would ideally combine the three capabilities.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 28 Sep 2019, 19:19
by inst
mixelflick wrote:
marsavian wrote:As a collective group of aviation enthusiasts we should not get sucked up to manufacturers claims of post 5th generation aircraft until everyone agrees what 6th generation aircraft really are. Nothing I have seen proposed looks revolutionary compared to the F-35 which
is the quintessential mass produced 5th generation fighter. It really does have to have quantum leaps in capability to justify a next generation moniker.


If you're talking about Tempest, I wholeheartedly agree.

If OTOH you're talking about PCA, I'm not sure the last part of your statement squares up. Last I heard, USAF was more concerned with getting something fielded timely, or at least a lot more timely than F-22/35 development. As such, it may or may not be a quantum leap. This is pure speculation, but I believe PCA is farther along in development than what's been made known. Something is driving the Russians to speed field the SU-57, and it looks like work on the Hunter drone is accelerating too.

Their prior statements about SU-35/SU-30SM's/Mig-29's being "adequate to meet the threat, SU-57 can wait etc.".... you don't hear them singing that song anymore. I suppose it may be a realization the F-35 is better than advertised too, but something is driving modernization efforts. If I was a betting man, I'd say Pratt or GE have made a breakthrough in engine technology and more importantly, made it affordable. If we lead in anything, it's engine tech. That might be what's causing them some concern..



There are significant rumors about the US having made a breakthrough in engine technology, with claims that classified US engine technologies are powering next-generation American missiles like AIM-260, MSDM, and SACM. This could quite possibly end up being applied to fighter aircraft, enabling hypersonics or at least getting the F-35 to kinematic par.

With the F135, we've seen the cutting edge of American engine technology circa 2007. What's the cutting edge in 2019?

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 29 Sep 2019, 02:18
by madrat
The experience over Syria woke up Russia. Now they are fearing Chinese progress and realize they are way behind even Europe

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 29 Sep 2019, 02:48
by inst
madrat wrote:The experience over Syria woke up Russia. Now they are fearing Chinese progress and realize they are way behind even Europe


I mean, the Russian end-game is to join the EU on their terms or have the EU just get subsumed by their Eurasian Union entity. In the West, we don't believe the Russians have any decent long-term strategic potential. But Russia as part of the EU or controlling the EU matches European economics to Russian military power and R&D power.

With that in consideration, they can't compete with the Chinese in the long-run unless they absorb the EU, and the Chinese are more likely to back the Russians at least in the short-run as a more autocratic / socialist EU removes the ideological conflict between Europe and China.

I'd see the renewed focus on the Su-57 as more of an attempt to keep their arms export industry alive and their military industry alive. With F-35s jetting around, who would want to buy an Su-35, unless the point is to take it apart as with the Chinese purchase? The Su-57, if the Russians can get it as cheap as they claim, is at least competitive with the F-35 even if it's likely the Su-57 can't compete on a parity basis with the F-35.

And, well, the Chinese believed that their J-11 (Flanker clones) and J-10s could, with appropriate tactics, counter American 5th generation aircraft, even if it had to rely on numerical superiority (see RAND study on crippling the F-22 by knocking out tankers). The Chinese quickly changed their tune the moment they had the J-20 running and began running war games against their J-11 and J-10 aircraft. Even with AEW&C support, the J-20s end up dominating J-11s and J-10s.

Something similar could have occurred with Russia; when you don't have stealth, you'll play up your counterstealth equipment, and perhaps drink your own Kool-Aid. Once you have stealth and test your own 5th gens vs your 4th gens, your tune rapidly changes.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 27 Nov 2019, 09:35
by hythelday
Airbus hoping to combine British Tempest jet project with Franco-German effort


Guillaume Faury, the chief executive of Airbus has called for a single European fighter jet programme, merging British and continental European efforts.


https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/airbus- ... an-effort/

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 27 Nov 2019, 10:14
by Corsair1963
hythelday wrote:Airbus hoping to combine British Tempest jet project with Franco-German effort


Guillaume Faury, the chief executive of Airbus has called for a single European fighter jet programme, merging British and continental European efforts.


https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/airbus- ... an-effort/



Very very unlikely.....UK has no interest in playing second fiddle to France and/or Germany. Especially, the former... :?

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 27 Nov 2019, 10:55
by Corsair1963
marsavian wrote:As a collective group of aviation enthusiasts we should not get sucked up to manufacturers claims of post 5th generation aircraft until everyone agrees what 6th generation aircraft really are. Nothing I have seen proposed looks revolutionary compared to the F-35 which
is the quintessential mass produced 5th generation fighter. It really does have to have quantum leaps in capability to justify a next generation moniker.



Actually, I think the US is very wise to take it's time with the PCA/NGAD. As we haven't figured out half of what the F-35 can really do. Let alone the Generation (6th) beyond that....

This while Europe appears to be making the same mistake they did with both the Rafale and Typhoon. That is instead of developing them as 5th Generation Fighters. They took a small leap (less risky) and developed the two aforementioned as "4.5 Generation Fighters". Yet, by time they arrived the American 5th Generation F-22 and F-35 where hot on their heels....

Maybe it's just me but the FCAS and Tempest sure look more like a 5.5 Generation Fighter. Than a big leap 6th Generation one....

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 28 Nov 2019, 08:22
by wil59
Corsair1963 wrote:
marsavian wrote:As a collective group of aviation enthusiasts we should not get sucked up to manufacturers claims of post 5th generation aircraft until everyone agrees what 6th generation aircraft really are. Nothing I have seen proposed looks revolutionary compared to the F-35 which
is the quintessential mass produced 5th generation fighter. It really does have to have quantum leaps in capability to justify a next generation moniker.



Actually, I think the US is very wise to take it's time with the PCA/NGAD. As we haven't figured out half of what the F-35 can really do. Let alone the Generation (6th) beyond that....

This while Europe appears to be making the same mistake they did with both the Rafale and Typhoon. That is instead of developing them as 5th Generation Fighters. They took a small leap (less risky) and developed the two aforementioned as "4.5 Generation Fighters". Yet, by time they arrived the American 5th Generation F-22 and F-35 where hot on their heels....

Maybe it's just me but the FCAS and Tempest sure look more like a 5.5 Generation Fighter. Than a big leap 6th Generation one....
.
An error the 4.5 generation!?. Tell me when the 5 generations have participated in an armed conflict in the last 15 years?

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 28 Nov 2019, 10:14
by southernphantom
wil59 wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:
marsavian wrote:As a collective group of aviation enthusiasts we should not get sucked up to manufacturers claims of post 5th generation aircraft until everyone agrees what 6th generation aircraft really are. Nothing I have seen proposed looks revolutionary compared to the F-35 which
is the quintessential mass produced 5th generation fighter. It really does have to have quantum leaps in capability to justify a next generation moniker.



Actually, I think the US is very wise to take it's time with the PCA/NGAD. As we haven't figured out half of what the F-35 can really do. Let alone the Generation (6th) beyond that....

This while Europe appears to be making the same mistake they did with both the Rafale and Typhoon. That is instead of developing them as 5th Generation Fighters. They took a small leap (less risky) and developed the two aforementioned as "4.5 Generation Fighters". Yet, by time they arrived the American 5th Generation F-22 and F-35 where hot on their heels....

Maybe it's just me but the FCAS and Tempest sure look more like a 5.5 Generation Fighter. Than a big leap 6th Generation one....
.
An error the 4.5 generation!?. Tell me when the 5 generations have participated in an armed conflict in the last 15 years?


Seriously (Syriasly)?

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 28 Nov 2019, 11:14
by wil59
wil59 wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:
marsavian wrote:As a collective group of aviation enthusiasts we should not get sucked up to manufacturers claims of post 5th generation aircraft until everyone agrees what 6th generation aircraft really are. Nothing I have seen proposed looks revolutionary compared to the F-35 which
is the quintessential mass produced 5th generation fighter. It really does have to have quantum leaps in capability to justify a next generation moniker.



Actually, I think the US is very wise to take it's time with the PCA/NGAD. As we haven't figured out half of what the F-35 can really do. Let alone the Generation (6th) beyond that....

This while Europe appears to be making the same mistake they did with both the Rafale and Typhoon. That is instead of developing them as 5th Generation Fighters. They took a small leap (less risky) and developed the two aforementioned as "4.5 Generation Fighters". Yet, by time they arrived the American 5th Generation F-22 and F-35 where hot on their heels....

Maybe it's just me but the FCAS and Tempest sure look more like a 5.5 Generation Fighter. Than a big leap 6th Generation one....
.
An error the 4.5 generation!?. Tell me when the 5 generations have participated in an armed conflict in the last 15 years?
.
Apart from bombardment with a B2 ?! A bombardment with a 4 th generation aircraft would have given the same results.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 28 Nov 2019, 11:22
by wil59
wil59 wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:
marsavian wrote:As a collective group of aviation enthusiasts we should not get sucked up to manufacturers claims of post 5th generation aircraft until everyone agrees what 6th generation aircraft really are. Nothing I have seen proposed looks revolutionary compared to the F-35 which
is the quintessential mass produced 5th generation fighter. It really does have to have quantum leaps in capability to justify a next generation moniker.



Actually, I think the US is very wise to take it's time with the PCA/NGAD. As we haven't figured out half of what the F-35 can really do. Let alone the Generation (6th) beyond that....

This while Europe appears to be making the same mistake they did with both the Rafale and Typhoon. That is instead of developing them as 5th Generation Fighters. They took a small leap (less risky) and developed the two aforementioned as "4.5 Generation Fighters". Yet, by time they arrived the American 5th Generation F-22 and F-35 where hot on their heels....

Maybe it's just me but the FCAS and Tempest sure look more like a 5.5 Generation Fighter. Than a big leap 6th Generation one....
.
An error the 4.5 generation!?. Tell me when the 5 generations have participated in an armed conflict in the last 15 years?

What I mean is that the 5th generation will be relevant when the Russian and China have a consequent 5th generation hunt. It's not the pak-fa RCS and the j20, I really doubt their claims on their furtives.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 28 Nov 2019, 15:09
by madrat
J-20 is not a low RCS aircraft, it is true stealth. The LRIP J-20 has exceptional detail. The prototypes did not. It would be silly to under-estimate the production J-20.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 28 Nov 2019, 17:00
by mixelflick
INST

"The Chinese quickly changed their tune the moment they had the J-20 running and began running war games against their J-11 and J-10 aircraft. Even with AEW&C support, the J-20s end up dominating J-11s and J-10s..."

And we know this, how??

Did the Chinese offer up this information, the same way we did when the F-35 achieved a 20:1 kill ratio at Red Flag?? If so, this would be a major departure in what the Chinese share about their weapons systems...

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 02 Dec 2019, 13:07
by wil59
mixelflick wrote:INST

"The Chinese quickly changed their tune the moment they had the J-20 running and began running war games against their J-11 and J-10 aircraft. Even with AEW&C support, the J-20s end up dominating J-11s and J-10s..."

And we know this, how??

Did the Chinese offer up this information, the same way we did when the F-35 achieved a 20:1 kill ratio at Red Flag?? If so, this would be a major departure in what the Chinese share about their weapons systems...

hum, a J-10 or a J-11 are not really capable planes like the super hornet or rafale and in embedded electronics they must be very far from the hornet or rafale capabilities.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 03 Dec 2019, 04:07
by Corsair1963
wil59 wrote:An error the 4.5 generation!?. Tell me when the 5 generations have participated in an armed conflict in the last 15 years?



Tell me how many 4.5 Generation Fighters (Typhoon and Rafale) are going to be exported in the coming decade... :doh:

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 03 Dec 2019, 13:17
by wil59
Corsair1963 wrote:
wil59 wrote:An error the 4.5 generation!?. Tell me when the 5 generations have participated in an armed conflict in the last 15 years?



Tell me how many 4.5 Generation Fighters (Typhoon and Rafale) are going to be exported in the coming decade... :doh:

Well, except for the F-35 which is exporting. Mainly for political reasons and also to be able to benefit from the protection of the United States via NATO, I do not believe that the 4.5 generations are a mistake, they are cheaper to use and perfectly blend the work that is required. I have never heard a Rafale pilot complain, but rather the opposite, saying that it is a reliable machine that perfectly executes what is required. Stealth is good for some missions but it is possible to do otherwise with a non-stealth aircraft and I don't think they have s-400s on every street corner. In short, everyone's opinion. The French manufacturing policy is not dark if we do not control new technologies but to do it little by little. Look at the problems that the F-35 has encountered during all these years since its design and it is not yet finished! Sorry if my honesty can drive you crazy here, I mean, he has a lot of F-35 boy fans here. But I repeat, apart from the F-35, which 5th generation aircraft was exported?
.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 03 Dec 2019, 13:58
by wil59
wil59 wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:
wil59 wrote:An error the 4.5 generation!?. Tell me when the 5 generations have participated in an armed conflict in the last 15 years?



Tell me how many 4.5 Generation Fighters (Typhoon and Rafale) are going to be exported in the coming decade... :doh:

Well, except for the F-35 which is exporting. Mainly for political reasons and also to be able to benefit from the protection of the United States via NATO, I do not believe that the 4.5 generations are a mistake, they are cheaper to use and perfectly blend the work that is required. I have never heard a Rafale pilot complain, but rather the opposite, saying that it is a reliable machine that perfectly executes what is required. Stealth is good for some missions but it is possible to do otherwise with a non-stealth aircraft and I don't think they have s-400s on every street corner. In short, everyone's opinion. The French manufacturing policy is not dark if we do not control new technologies but to do it little by little. Look at the problems that the F-35 has encountered during all these years since its design and it is not yet finished! Sorry if my honesty can drive you crazy here, I mean, he has a lot of F-35 boy fans here. But I repeat, apart from the F-35, which 5th generation aircraft was exported?
.

I would add that the United States was the only country 30/40 years ago to invest in stealth research and design a stealth aircraft. No other country can afford it, the United States defence budget was higher than all other countries combined. The other countries France, England etc. could not follow the path of the United States. Apart from China, which has been investing heavily in the 5th generation for 10/15 years now, it is normal since China has considerably increased its defence budget over the past 10/15 years, other countries cannot keep up with this. This is why the 5ięme generation project is only now starting for France and England, which have the technical capacity to do so for a long time now, to see the Taranis or the Neuron. It was all about money, that's all! And since they had invested in the 4.5 generations they didn't have the attention to reinvest in the 5 consecutive generations.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 03 Dec 2019, 16:50
by vilters
No country,
I WILL write that again:

NO country (or any combination of countries in Europe) has the funds to properly R&D a true stealth airframe/engine combination.

We missed that boat completely.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 03 Dec 2019, 16:58
by botsing
vilters wrote:NO country (or any combination of countries in Europe) is willing to spend the funds to properly R&D a true stealth airframe/engine combination..

FTFY

EU and USA economy has always been very close to each other.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 03 Dec 2019, 17:19
by wil59
vilters wrote:No country,
I WILL write that again:

NO country (or any combination of countries in Europe) has the funds to properly R&D a true stealth airframe/engine combination.

We missed that boat completely.

Really! Really! So tell me why France and England launched the 5/6th generation program with their respective partners! You are the Tempest program, and SCAF, I reassure you that they are not cars! but beautiful and well a 5 or 6 th generation fighter aircraft program. So you're going to say they can't do it, in short, don't answer my post anymore you'll do me a favor tdc.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 03 Dec 2019, 17:36
by wrightwing
wil59 wrote:
vilters wrote:No country,
I WILL write that again:

NO country (or any combination of countries in Europe) has the funds to properly R&D a true stealth airframe/engine combination.

We missed that boat completely.

Really! Really! So tell me why France and England launched the 5/6th generation program with their respective partners! You are the Tempest program, and SCAF, I reassure you that they are not cars! but beautiful and well a 5 or 6 th generation fighter aircraft program. So you're going to say they can't do it, in short, don't answer my post anymore you'll do me a favor tdc.

I thought the Rafale and Typhoon were good enough. Which is it? Even EU nations know that with the US selling F-35s, and China/Russia at some point selling Su-57, J-20, and J-31s, along with myriad SAM systems, that 4th gen jets have a limited shelf life. What remains to be seen, is if they can avoid political clusterf@$me, and build their 5th generation jets in a timely and affordable manner.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 03 Dec 2019, 20:16
by wil59
wrightwing wrote:
wil59 wrote:
vilters wrote:No country,
I WILL write that again:

NO country (or any combination of countries in Europe) has the funds to properly R&D a true stealth airframe/engine combination.

We missed that boat completely.

Really! Really! So tell me why France and England launched the 5/6th generation program with their respective partners! You are the Tempest program, and SCAF, I reassure you that they are not cars! but beautiful and well a 5 or 6 th generation fighter aircraft program. So you're going to say they can't do it, in short, don't answer my post anymore you'll do me a favor tdc.

I thought the Rafale and Typhoon were good enough. Which is it? Even EU nations know that with the US selling F-35s, and China/Russia at some point selling Su-57, J-20, and J-31s, along with myriad SAM systems, that 4th gen jets have a limited shelf life. What remains to be seen, is if they can avoid political clusterf@$me, and build their 5th generation jets in a timely and affordable manner.

Well at the present time the Rafale is still current and efficient and will be even more so with the F4 standard in 2022, I invite you to consult the F4 specificities on connectivity, networking, etc. This evolution of the French aircraft should allow it to bring it fully into the network battle with new satellite and intra-patrol links, communication server, software radio. New functions will also be developed to improve aircraft capabilities such as sensor and radar evolution, frontal sector optronics (IRST), helmet sight capabilities and new weapons will be integrated such as the Mica NG air-to-air missile and the 1000 kg modular air-to-ground weaponry.

Finally, in terms of availability, Dassault works within the framework of an MCO (Maintenance in Operational Condition) which will be more verticalized under the authority of the aircraft manufacturer. F4 will include a new Prognosis and Diagnostic Assistance System introducing predictive maintenance capabilities. Other maintenance optimizations are also planned, including solutions based on Big Data and artificial intelligence. Finally, the Rafale will be equipped with a new engine control unit, and validation of the F4 standard is planned for 2024, with some functions available from 2022. The response to the F-35:

There was one important step missing to counter Lockheed-Martin's F-35, that of connectivity. It will soon be done with the "F4". With increased computing capacity, the aircraft will be able to communicate with drones, ground armoured vehicles and surface vessels, in order to react faster and with greater accuracy. The European response is being put in place, with aircraft that will be able to operate in "big data" mode while remaining manageable and efficient at all levels.

The mission for the French aircraft manufacturer: to deliver it to the armed forces by 2023 for a contract worth nearly two billion euros. As the Minister pointed out, some thirty other F4 Rafales were ordered by the State for delivery between 2027 and 2030. All of them represent the first embryo of the SCAF (air combat system of the future), a European programme under French leadership, the Rafale F4 will fly with drones and the SCAF and all this in a hyperconnectivity, so the burst will still have its place in 2030 and therefore is certainly not a mistake, saying that the Rafale is outdated is really a joke.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 04 Dec 2019, 00:19
by hb_pencil
wil59 wrote:
vilters wrote:No country,
I WILL write that again:

NO country (or any combination of countries in Europe) has the funds to properly R&D a true stealth airframe/engine combination.

We missed that boat completely.

Really! Really! So tell me why France and England launched the 5/6th generation program with their respective partners! You are the Tempest program, and SCAF, I reassure you that they are not cars! but beautiful and well a 5 or 6 th generation fighter aircraft program. So you're going to say they can't do it, in short, don't answer my post anymore you'll do me a favor tdc.


Because both underestimate the true cost of these systems. I think the only country that is truly willing to expend the capital to develop a 5th Gen in Europe alone is Germany, where its largely seen as an industrial development investment rather than a military one. However there are real questions whether they will actually follow through on that objective. A big issue is the ancillary capabilities that go around a fighter, which, frankly, only the United States has invested in. The FCAS says they intend to do that, but in spite of clear limitations in critical capabilities, they've made a number of moves that will just cost more and increase the difficulty to themselves.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 04 Dec 2019, 04:44
by XanderCrews
wil59 wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:
marsavian wrote:As a collective group of aviation enthusiasts we should not get sucked up to manufacturers claims of post 5th generation aircraft until everyone agrees what 6th generation aircraft really are. Nothing I have seen proposed looks revolutionary compared to the F-35 which
is the quintessential mass produced 5th generation fighter. It really does have to have quantum leaps in capability to justify a next generation moniker.



Actually, I think the US is very wise to take it's time with the PCA/NGAD. As we haven't figured out half of what the F-35 can really do. Let alone the Generation (6th) beyond that....

This while Europe appears to be making the same mistake they did with both the Rafale and Typhoon. That is instead of developing them as 5th Generation Fighters. They took a small leap (less risky) and developed the two aforementioned as "4.5 Generation Fighters". Yet, by time they arrived the American 5th Generation F-22 and F-35 where hot on their heels....

Maybe it's just me but the FCAS and Tempest sure look more like a 5.5 Generation Fighter. Than a big leap 6th Generation one....
.
An error the 4.5 generation!?. Tell me when the 5 generations have participated in an armed conflict in the last 15 years?



Image

I eagerly await your goal post moving...

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 04 Dec 2019, 04:57
by XanderCrews
wil59 wrote:Apart from bombardment with a B2 ?! A bombardment with a 4 th generation aircraft would have given the same results.


pure ignorance.

wil59 wrote: Look at the problems that the F-35 has encountered during all these years since its design and it is not yet finished! Sorry if my honesty can drive you crazy here, I mean, he has a lot of F-35 boy fans here. But I repeat, apart from the F-35, which 5th generation aircraft was exported?
.


Its not your "honesty" its your glib and unserious fanboy nature. You don't get to whine about fanboyism while chugging Rafale kool aide on behalf of all of Europe! LOL

The rafale has been "in progress" since its inception. the F4 your touting is yet another iteration of the continually "evolving design" but don't worry one day they will get it "right" and it still won't be a 5th generation fighter.

wil59 wrote:his is why the 5ięme generation project is only now starting for France and England, which have the technical capacity to do so for a long time now, to see the Taranis or the Neuron. It was all about money, that's all! And since they had invested in the 4.5 generations they didn't have the attention to reinvest in the 5 consecutive generations.


They invested all that time and money into those great and 4.5 gen programs that left them too poor to keep up in the 21st century? why Wil59 your countering your own argument. :mrgreen:

Taranis and Neuron are hardly the equivalents of engineering, building, fielding and taking to war a 5th generation manned fighter. Russia just got to learn the hard way how expensive and difficult and the massive support and research required. The technical seeds must be planted years ahead and again it took years and years to field the European 4.5 gen fighters as you note, time and money they can't get back. and theyre still working on them. Its was absurd how long it took to get the Rafale and the Typhoon into initial service and then gobs of time and ever more money to get them to be the acceptable level they are now. to the point where even you agree its sapped them for other programs until now LOL not bad for programs that got started in the early 1980s.

And now theyre going to out do the F-35 and F-22? Do I get to watch that trillion dollars pay off around 2068 or 2075? :doh: and theyll field 100 of them and the 101st model will be Tempest Mk6-6B-F9a2 (block 67- flight IV) finally on par with the 2018 F-35...



wil59 wrote:
vilters wrote:No country,
I WILL write that again:

NO country (or any combination of countries in Europe) has the funds to properly R&D a true stealth airframe/engine combination.

We missed that boat completely.

Really! Really! So tell me why France and England launched the 5/6th generation program with their respective partners! You are the Tempest program, and SCAF, I reassure you that they are not cars! but beautiful and well a 5 or 6 th generation fighter aircraft program. So you're going to say they can't do it, in short, don't answer my post anymore you'll do me a favor tdc.



They can "launch" whatever program they want. In my lifetime Ive seen hundreds of programs "launched" with various results.

Image

They launched the EF Typhoon FEFA program in 1983. The decision to "launch" the Rafale was made back in 1982, and the prototype first flew in 1986, and only 15 short years later they finally got it into service and as of today still havn't built even 200 of them.


but thats ok because its only been 37 years...

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 04 Dec 2019, 05:24
by XanderCrews
I do not believe that the 4.5 generations are a mistake, they are cheaper to use


false.

and in order to make the Rafale feasible costwise, its required making it the only game in town for France--theyve retired or plan to retire all other types

I have never heard a Rafale pilot complain, but rather the opposite, saying that it is a reliable machine that perfectly executes what is required.


utterly irrelevant.

Stealth is good for some missions but it is possible to do otherwise with a non-stealth aircraft and I don't think they have s-400s on every street corner. In short, everyone's opinion.


Its like 5th generation can do what gen 4.5 can, but 4.5 can't do what 5th generation can do, so youre left coping about how thats ok somehow because Gen 4.5 is cheaper when its not. Typhoon alone is so insanely expensive and many Typhoon nations are also buying F-35-- and now seeking to replace it with the program you were just telling us they launched as soon as they could finally get away from the Gen 4.5 money sinks and seek to replace them LOL

France is sticking with Rafale because they have no other choice and the "national pride" you so readily display to everyone here in absence of actual facts and information

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 04 Dec 2019, 10:28
by wil59
XanderCrews wrote:
I do not believe that the 4.5 generations are a mistake, they are cheaper to use


false.

and in order to make the Rafale feasible costwise, its required making it the only game in town for France--theyve retired or plan to retire all other types

I have never heard a Rafale pilot complain, but rather the opposite, saying that it is a reliable machine that perfectly executes what is required.


utterly irrelevant.

Stealth is good for some missions but it is possible to do otherwise with a non-stealth aircraft and I don't think they have s-400s on every street corner. In short, everyone's opinion.


Its like 5th generation can do what gen 4.5 can, but 4.5 can't do what 5th generation can do, so youre left coping about how thats ok somehow because Gen 4.5 is cheaper when its not. Typhoon alone is so insanely expensive and many Typhoon nations are also buying F-35-- and now seeking to replace it with the program you were just telling us they launched as soon as they could finally get away from the Gen 4.5 money sinks and seek to replace them LOL

France is sticking with Rafale because they have no other choice and the "national pride" you so readily display to everyone here in absence of actual facts and information
. Um, look at the operating costs for a 5-generation aircraft and that of a 4-generation aircraft, maintenance for each flight hour, fuel cost for each flight hour, how many men for the maintenance of an aircraft vs. 4th generation! You will see, but you already knew that exploiting a 5th generation is much more expensive. And now calculated over 15/20 years?. In short, your arguments are false, as are all the points you have made against me. And I'm going to add that: Dassault Aviation would not embark on a 5th generation project if it could not do so both technically and financially. For the Rafale, the number of aircraft ordered has been a program that has been determined for many years, and when you look at the program, each version of the burst scrupulously respects the specifications pre-established since the beginning of the contract. Here again you are mistaken! I would like to know who you are as a specialist, how the F-35 behaves at supersonic speed and how long it can stay that way. How would the structures react if the F-35 had to maneuver at 1.4 mach to avoid a missile in front approach considering that it would have to take a large number of G to avoid it?

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 04 Dec 2019, 11:15
by Corsair1963
wil59 wrote:
France is sticking with Rafale because they have no other choice and the "national pride" you so readily display to everyone here in absence of actual facts and information
. Um, look at the operating costs for a 5-generation aircraft and that of a 4-generation aircraft, maintenance for each flight hour, fuel cost for each flight hour, how many men for the maintenance of an aircraft vs. 4th generation! You will see, but you already knew that exploiting a 5th generation is much more expensive. And now calculated over 15/20 years?. In short, your arguments are false, as are all the points you have made against me. And I'm going to add that: Dassault Aviation would not embark on a 5th generation project if it could not do so both technically and financially. For the Rafale, the number of aircraft ordered has been a program that has been determined for many years, and when you look at the program, each version of the burst scrupulously respects the specifications pre-established since the beginning of the contract. Here again you are mistaken! I would like to know who you are as a specialist, how the F-35 behaves at supersonic speed and how long it can stay that way. How would the structures react if the F-35 had to maneuver at 1.4 mach to avoid a missile in front approach considering that it would have to take a large number of G to avoid it?
[/quote]


Honestly, you need to cut back on the medication. Do you really understand what you just said???

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 04 Dec 2019, 11:40
by wil59
XanderCrews wrote:
I do not believe that the 4.5 generations are a mistake, they are cheaper to use


false.

and in order to make the Rafale feasible costwise, its required making it the only game in town for France--theyve retired or plan to retire all other types

I have never heard a Rafale pilot complain, but rather the opposite, saying that it is a reliable machine that perfectly executes what is required.


utterly irrelevant.

Stealth is good for some missions but it is possible to do otherwise with a non-stealth aircraft and I don't think they have s-400s on every street corner. In short, everyone's opinion.


Its like 5th generation can do what gen 4.5 can, but 4.5 can't do what 5th generation can do, so youre left coping about how thats ok somehow because Gen 4.5 is cheaper when its not. Typhoon alone is so insanely expensive and many Typhoon nations are also buying F-35-- and now seeking to replace it with the program you were just telling us they launched as soon as they could finally get away from the Gen 4.5 money sinks and seek to replace them LOL

France is sticking with Rafale because they have no other choice and the "national pride" you so readily display to everyone here in absence of actual facts and information
What a bunch of bullshit
I would like to know why the British have embarked on a 5th generation program since they now have the F-35? It puzzles me since apparently the F-35 is the ultimate aircraft! As for Dassault if he launches it in the program you can be sure that they will go to the end. Dassault's approach is different from Lockheed Martin, the United States will spend a lot of money to implement a program even if it is technically difficult to design it because it will then be able to solve the various problems later with the money that the state gives them. For Dassault it is different the French state will not invest if the project presents too much uncertainty !Look at the Rafale program the cost in research and development then the realization of the project has scrupulously followed the specifications. Dassault had to respect the amount he was prescribed. How many debates the United States Congress has had about exceeding the costs for the realization of the F-35 simply too much! The United States and France have a different approach to this, so what? Was the 5th generation relevant for the current use: yes. A natural enemy which is Russia and China. Was the 5th generation relevant for France at the moment: no. The difference is also geopolitical, make no mistake! That's why making the program now for France is not a mistake!

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 04 Dec 2019, 11:53
by wil59
Corsair1963 wrote:
wil59 wrote:
France is sticking with Rafale because they have no other choice and the "national pride" you so readily display to everyone here in absence of actual facts and information
. Um, look at the operating costs for a 5-generation aircraft and that of a 4-generation aircraft, maintenance for each flight hour, fuel cost for each flight hour, how many men for the maintenance of an aircraft vs. 4th generation! You will see, but you already knew that exploiting a 5th generation is much more expensive. And now calculated over 15/20 years?. In short, your arguments are false, as are all the points you have made against me. And I'm going to add that: Dassault Aviation would not embark on a 5th generation project if it could not do so both technically and financially. For the Rafale, the number of aircraft ordered has been a program that has been determined for many years, and when you look at the program, each version of the burst scrupulously respects the specifications pre-established since the beginning of the contract. Here again you are mistaken! I would like to know who you are as a specialist, how the F-35 behaves at supersonic speed and how long it can stay that way. How would the structures react if the F-35 had to maneuver at 1.4 mach to avoid a missile in front approach considering that it would have to take a large number of G to avoid it?



Honestly, you need to cut back on the medication. Do you really understand what you just said???[/quote]I understand myself, that's the main thing. You have your opinions, I have mine, say I'm taking medication without you saying why you didn't agree? Okay it's really easy, and without interest short...

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 04 Dec 2019, 12:22
by hornetfinn
wil59 wrote: Um, look at the operating costs for a 5-generation aircraft and that of a 4-generation aircraft, maintenance for each flight hour, fuel cost for each flight hour, how many men for the maintenance of an aircraft vs. 4th generation! You will see, but you already knew that exploiting a 5th generation is much more expensive.


Danish Air Force (and USAF) calculations disagree with that. F-35 was calculated to be cheaper to buy and operate than 4+ gen Super Hornet or especially Eurofighter Typhoon. USAF says that F-35 flight hour costs are not that much higher than in F-16C. F-22 is more expensive to operate than most 4th gen fighters, but it's also much larger and powerful aircraft than all current Western 4th gen fighters.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 04 Dec 2019, 13:16
by wil59
hornetfinn wrote:
wil59 wrote: Um, look at the operating costs for a 5-generation aircraft and that of a 4-generation aircraft, maintenance for each flight hour, fuel cost for each flight hour, how many men for the maintenance of an aircraft vs. 4th generation! You will see, but you already knew that exploiting a 5th generation is much more expensive.


Danish Air Force (and USAF) calculations disagree with that. F-35 was calculated to be cheaper to buy and operate than 4+ gen Super Hornet or especially Eurofighter Typhoon. USAF says that F-35 flight hour costs are not that much higher than in F-16C. F-22 is more expensive to operate than most 4th gen fighters, but it's also much larger and powerful aircraft than all current Western 4th gen fighters.

To be honest, I have seen on several publications that the flight time was much higher compared to an f-16 or even a Rafale ,so yes it is bigger too I obviously consider it but does it justify a cost of 30 to 40% more expensive? Here is an article I read recently on the operating cost of the F-35: We have been perceiving it for some time, the doctrine of the "all stealthy" with the F-22 and F-35 no longer appeals. This is due to the cost of purchases and flight hours that negatively affect staffing. However, it has become clear that the provision of enough aircraft to hold during external operations (OpEx) and to maintain an adequate number of aircraft to ensure the safety of the American territory, the training and education of new pilots is not compatible with a limited number of aircraft, even if they are stealthy. In Washington, the Congressional Budget Office presented the U.S. federal government with a number of ideas to reduce costs, including reducing the number of additional purchases of Lockheed-Martin F-35 "Lightning II", withdrawing the Rockwell B-1B Lancer bomber fleets and postponing the development of the Northrop Grumman B-21 stealth bomber.

Reduce the deficit:

As part of the report entitled "Options for Reducing the Deficit: 2019 to 2028", the CBO described dozens of reductions in discretionary spending, both within and outside the Department of Defense, that could reduce the gap between U.S. government revenues and expenditures. The agency's analysis was made in light of a federal deficit that is expected to average 5.1% of GDP between 2022 and 2025, losses that would cause the federal government's debt to rise to levels higher than those of the Second World War. The plan to cancel additional F-35 purchases between 2019 and 2028 is expected to save the Pentagon $13 billion, according to the CBO. Instead of buying the F-35, the US Air Force would buy 510 F-16 Fighting-Falcon with the standard "Block70/75" Viper and 250 F-15 "Advanced Eagle" and the Navy and Marine Corps would buy 394 F/A-18 "Advanced Super Hornets until 2028. These purchases would be made within the same timeframe as the one currently in place for the F-35s. The services would continue to operate the 429 F-35s already purchased.

"The advantage of this option is that it would reduce the cost of replacing older DoD fighter aircraft while providing the new F-15, F-16 and F/A-18 with improved capabilities (including modern radars, precision weapons and digital communications). These aircraft are capable of defeating most of the threats that the United States is likely to face in the coming years," says the CBO. "The F-35s already purchased would reinforce the stealth capability of the B-2 and F-22 bombers currently in service, which would improve the ability of the services to operate against adversaries equipped with sophisticated air defence systems." The risk of delaying the B-21:

However, the most significant change in the US Air Force's procurement plans could be to delay the development of the B-21 stealth bomber, which would save about $32 billion between 2020 and 2028, according to the CBO. The B-21 is expected to enter service between the mid- to late 2020s. One of the advantages of this approach would be that the B-21 program could take advantage of future aerospace technologies not yet available, says the CBO.

"Taking advantage of future technological developments could be particularly useful for weapon systems that are expected to be in use for several decades," the agency explains. "Even 10 years later, a new bomber would still be available before today's bombers have reached the end of their useful lives."

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 04 Dec 2019, 14:07
by wil59
XanderCrews wrote:
wil59 wrote:Apart from bombardment with a B2 ?! A bombardment with a 4 th generation aircraft would have given the same results.


pure ignorance.

wil59 wrote: Look at the problems that the F-35 has encountered during all these years since its design and it is not yet finished! Sorry if my honesty can drive you crazy here, I mean, he has a lot of F-35 boy fans here. But I repeat, apart from the F-35, which 5th generation aircraft was exported?
.


Its not your "honesty" its your glib and unserious fanboy nature. You don't get to whine about fanboyism while chugging Rafale kool aide on behalf of all of Europe! LOL

The rafale has been "in progress" since its inception. the F4 your touting is yet another iteration of the continually "evolving design" but don't worry one day they will get it "right" and it still won't be a 5th generation fighter.

wil59 wrote:his is why the 5ięme generation project is only now starting for France and England, which have the technical capacity to do so for a long time now, to see the Taranis or the Neuron. It was all about money, that's all! And since they had invested in the 4.5 generations they didn't have the attention to reinvest in the 5 consecutive generations.


They invested all that time and money into those great and 4.5 gen programs that left them too poor to keep up in the 21st century? why Wil59 your countering your own argument. :mrgreen:

Taranis and Neuron are hardly the equivalents of engineering, building, fielding and taking to war a 5th generation manned fighter. Russia just got to learn the hard way how expensive and difficult and the massive support and research required. The technical seeds must be planted years ahead and again it took years and years to field the European 4.5 gen fighters as you note, time and money they can't get back. and theyre still working on them. Its was absurd how long it took to get the Rafale and the Typhoon into initial service and then gobs of time and ever more money to get them to be the acceptable level they are now. to the point where even you agree its sapped them for other programs until now LOL not bad for programs that got started in the early 1980s.

And now theyre going to out do the F-35 and F-22? Do I get to watch that trillion dollars pay off around 2068 or 2075? :doh: and theyll field 100 of them and the 101st model will be Tempest Mk6-6B-F9a2 (block 67- flight IV) finally on par with the 2018 F-35...



wil59 wrote:
vilters wrote:No country,
I WILL write that again:

NO country (or any combination of countries in Europe) has the funds to properly R&D a true stealth airframe/engine combination.

We missed that boat completely.

Really! Really! So tell me why France and England launched the 5/6th generation program with their respective partners! You are the Tempest program, and SCAF, I reassure you that they are not cars! but beautiful and well a 5 or 6 th generation fighter aircraft program. So you're going to say they can't do it, in short, don't answer my post anymore you'll do me a favor tdc.



They can "launch" whatever program they want. In my lifetime Ive seen hundreds of programs "launched" with various results.

Image

They launched the EF Typhoon FEFA program in 1983. The decision to "launch" the Rafale was made back in 1982, and the prototype first flew in 1986, and only 15 short years later they finally got it into service and as of today still havn't built even 200 of them.


but thats ok because its only been 37 years...
.
With the development of the ScaF programme, concerns have emerged about the evolution and longevity of the Rafale fighter aircraft. To this end, the French Air Force and the aircraft manufacturer Dassault explained last weekend how to maintain multi-role combat aircraft in air and naval service until about 2070.

Speaking at the IQPC international conference on combat aircraft in Berlin, Major General Frédéric Parisot, Deputy Chief of Staff for Plans and Programmes of the French Air Force, said there would probably be four other upgrade phases for the Rafale programme. The platform goes beyond the latest F3R configuration currently being deployed and envisages that the Rafale will consider serving as a force multiplier alongside the new generation fighter (NFG) currently being developed with Germany and Spain as part of the broader Future Combat Air System (ScaF / Future Air Combat System (SCAF).

The Rafale's current F3R configuration includes major software and hardware upgrades, including the integration of the MBDA Meteor air-to-air missile out of visual range (BVRAAM) and the latest laser-guided version of the Sagem Armement Air-Sol Modular (AASM) model. ) modular air-to-ground precision weapon, Thales' AESA active electronic scanning radar (RNA) RBE2, Thales' TALIOS long-range airborne targeting pod (as well as the SNIPER pod) and the automatic ground collision avoidance system (Auto-GCAS), an improved "buddy-to-buddy" refuelling module and the Spectra electronic warfare system.

The "F4" standard is expected to operate between 2023 and 2030 and includes improvements to the AESA radar (RNA2), as well as the TALIOS and Reco NG recognition modules. Upgrading the aircraft's communications suite, improved pilot helmet displays, a new engine control unit and the ability to carry new weapons such as the Mica Next-Generation (NG) air-to-air missile and the 1,000 kg MSAA. In addition to software and hardware improvements, the F4 upgrade will include a satellite antenna, as well as a new prognostic and diagnostic aid system designed to introduce predictive maintenance capabilities.

Then there will be two other update programs, F5 and F6. If no information has been provided regarding these two future standards, they will be directly involved to enable the Rafale fighter aircraft to operate in conjunction with the ScaF program. And even if the Rafale did not go that far, its future remains secure!
https://youtu.be/zvzcF-aZVto 14 ooo kilometres and 10 hours of flight! This is real life.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 04 Dec 2019, 18:35
by XanderCrews
. Um, look at the operating costs for a 5-generation aircraft and that of a 4-generation aircraft, maintenance for each flight hour, fuel cost for each flight hour, how many men for the maintenance of an aircraft vs. 4th generation!


the first thing is that CFPH has no set international standard and there are various methods even within the US about how to calculate it. moreover, its constantly shifting as in the US legacy airplanes cost more to CPFH every year. Eventually those curves meet and head in opposite directions.


You will see, but you already knew that exploiting a 5th generation is much more expensive. And now calculated over 15/20 years?.



If we are talking F-35 I'm going to bet heavily on a lower CPFH for F-35 than Rafale based on the fleet size and the fact that its a single engine alone. theres aready twice as Many F-35s in the world the last 10 years than there is the Rafale the last 38 years. This matters because one of the key notions behind the F-35 is a huge fleet size, economical manufacturing by mass and commonality within types. This is one of the reasons why F-35 is favorably compared with F-16 and other legacy platforms ALREADY. The sheer prices Rafale fetches on the international market, namely india also casts serious suspicion on its subsequent operating costs.

The F-22 is of course far more expensive and one of the reasons behind that is the SMALL FLEET SIZE.

I dont think the Rafale is cheap when theres even smaller numbers produced, with a very small annual production rate as well. Of all the Eurocanards Rafale has the smallest fleet size by far. India is a fiasco and its struggled with sales in Europe.

Dassault Aviation would not embark on a 5th generation project if it could not do so both technically and financially.



with enough time and money I have no doubt, but given the sheer amount of time and expense it took to create an airplane thats routinely outdone by the Super Hornet, you'll have to forgive me for being not really impressed at all.

on that note, as you whine about how theres no necessity for 5th generation, when 4th generation will do, then why is 4.5 necessary when Gen 4 will as you say, do just fine?

I think what started this argument was other like myself questioned with the benefit of hindsight if Gen 4.5 was really worth the time and expense that was put into it. Your arguments whether you mean to or not seemingly confirm that time and again.

Don't stop posting, you keep proving me right :mrgreen:

For the Rafale, the number of aircraft ordered has been a program that has been determined for many years, and when you look at the program, each version of the burst scrupulously respects the specifications pre-established since the beginning of the contract.


Here again you are mistaken! I would like to know who you are as a specialist, how the F-35 behaves at supersonic speed and how long it can stay that way. How would the structures react if the F-35 had to maneuver at 1.4 mach to avoid a missile in front approach considering that it would have to take a large number of G to avoid it?



you yourself specifically mentioned that fifth generation fighters handle things like the S-400 you specifically mentioned. So now your trying to come up with Xbox scenarios to prove what? you already conceded the point...

Make up your mind dude. one minute the Rafale is a cheap alternative for when the 5th generation is unnecessary overmatch and the next your telling us how superior Rafale is... and how 4th genaration can do what 5th can do, but 4.5 is totally necessary when Gen 4 will do:

wil59 wrote: a 4 th generation aircraft would have given the same results.


so 4.5 is unnecessary?

Image

worse than some of these Gripen Fanboys.

in fact your fanboyism is so over the top it only hurts your arguments and utterly lacks any objective looks or balanced factual accounting. This may not be the forum for you, we do actually try to avoid chatterboxing spamming fanboyism. There are many forums online that do support that. Your time may be better spent there, because you're not fooling anyone here.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 04 Dec 2019, 19:00
by XanderCrews
wil59 wrote: To be honest, I have seen on several publications that the flight time was much higher compared to an f-16 or even a Rafale ,so yes it is bigger too I obviously consider it but does it justify a cost of 30 to 40% more expensive?



INDIA: 36 Rafale jets was signed for €7.87 billion (according to XE.co m thats $8.54 Billion as of the moment)

BELGIUM: $6.5 billion Foreign Military Sales deal for 34 F-35 fighter jet. (And thats with the additional FMS fees... )

POLAND: September 11, 2019 - The State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign Military Sale to Poland of thirty-two (32) F-35 Joint Strike Fighter aircraft with support for an estimated cost of $6.5 billion. The Defense Security Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale on September 10, 2019.

Poland has requested to buy thirty-two (32) F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Conventional Take Off and Landing (CTOL) Aircraft and thirty-three (33) Pratt & Whitney F-135 Engines. Also included are Electronic Warfare Systems; Command, Control, Communications, Computer, and Intelligence/Communications, Navigational, and Identification (C4I/CNI); Autonomic Logistics Global Support System (ALGS); Autonomic Logistics Information System (ALIS); Full Mission Trainer; Weapons Employment Capability, and other Subsystems, Features, and Capabilities; F-35 unique infrared flares; reprogramming center; F-35 Performance Based Logistics; software development/integration; aircraft ferry and tanker support; support equipment; tools and test equipment; communications equipment; spares and repair parts; personnel training and training equipment; publications and technical documents; U.S. Government and contractor engineering, logistics, and personnel services; and other related elements of logistics and program support. The estimated cost is $6.5 billion. (again, with additional FMS fees)

Does the additional cost of the Rafale justify it?

Image

Here is an article I read recently on the operating cost of the F-35: We have been perceiving it for some time, the doctrine of the "all stealthy" with the F-22 and F-35 no longer appeals. This is due to the cost of purchases and flight hours that negatively affect staffing. However, it has become clear that the provision of enough aircraft to hold during external operations (OpEx) and to maintain an adequate number of aircraft to ensure the safety of the American territory, the training and education of new pilots is not compatible with a limited number of aircraft, even if they are stealthy. In Washington, the Congressional Budget Office presented the U.S. federal government with a number of ideas to reduce costs, including reducing the number of additional purchases of Lockheed-Martin F-35 "Lightning II", withdrawing the Rockwell B-1B Lancer bomber fleets and postponing the development of the Northrop Grumman B-21 stealth bomber.

Reduce the deficit:

As part of the report entitled "Options for Reducing the Deficit: 2019 to 2028", the CBO described dozens of reductions in discretionary spending, both within and outside the Department of Defense, that could reduce the gap between U.S. government revenues and expenditures. The agency's analysis was made in light of a federal deficit that is expected to average 5.1% of GDP between 2022 and 2025, losses that would cause the federal government's debt to rise to levels higher than those of the Second World War. The plan to cancel additional F-35 purchases between 2019 and 2028 is expected to save the Pentagon $13 billion, according to the CBO. Instead of buying the F-35, the US Air Force would buy 510 F-16 Fighting-Falcon with the standard "Block70/75" Viper and 250 F-15 "Advanced Eagle" and the Navy and Marine Corps would buy 394 F/A-18 "Advanced Super Hornets until 2028. These purchases would be made within the same timeframe as the one currently in place for the F-35s. The services would continue to operate the 429 F-35s already purchased.

"The advantage of this option is that it would reduce the cost of replacing older DoD fighter aircraft while providing the new F-15, F-16 and F/A-18 with improved capabilities (including modern radars, precision weapons and digital communications). These aircraft are capable of defeating most of the threats that the United States is likely to face in the coming years," says the CBO. "The F-35s already purchased would reinforce the stealth capability of the B-2 and F-22 bombers currently in service, which would improve the ability of the services to operate against adversaries equipped with sophisticated air defence systems." The risk of delaying the B-21:

However, the most significant change in the US Air Force's procurement plans could be to delay the development of the B-21 stealth bomber, which would save about $32 billion between 2020 and 2028, according to the CBO. The B-21 is expected to enter service between the mid- to late 2020s. One of the advantages of this approach would be that the B-21 program could take advantage of future aerospace technologies not yet available, says the CBO.

"Taking advantage of future technological developments could be particularly useful for weapon systems that are expected to be in use for several decades," the agency explains. "Even 10 years later, a new bomber would still be available before today's bombers have reached the end of their useful lives."


this is one of the many alternative concepts the CBO puts forth. its standard. moreover the issue isn't "generations" or "stealth" the concern is the balance of personnel and resources available to bring the number of aircraft required online. this is constant "ballet" the US Armed forces has been playing since the end of the cold war as it tries to replace the old with the new while also deploying and going to war for decades on end. The reason they're proposing improved legacy platforms is their logistics and infrastructure was established decades ago, and is already in place which would make adding to what is already been built helpful and easy as opposed to having to create and stand up new aircraft squadrons and the associated training, parts, infrastructure etc.

in short, this isn't what you think it is and you don't understand whats at the root of all this. naturally this careful explanation will probably go right over your head and be completely dismissed, but thats ok.

oh and For the record the CBO recommended the cancellation of the Gen 4.5 Super Hornet as it was considered unnecessary with the development of the 5th generation JSF :mrgreen:

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wil59 wrote: What a bunch of bullshit I would like to know why the British have embarked on a 5th generation program since they now have the F-35? It puzzles me since apparently the F-35 is the ultimate aircraft!


to replace the Gen 4.5 Typhoon. :mrgreen: no idea why thats so puzzling...

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 04 Dec 2019, 19:14
by XanderCrews
hornetfinn wrote:
wil59 wrote: Um, look at the operating costs for a 5-generation aircraft and that of a 4-generation aircraft, maintenance for each flight hour, fuel cost for each flight hour, how many men for the maintenance of an aircraft vs. 4th generation! You will see, but you already knew that exploiting a 5th generation is much more expensive.


Danish Air Force (and USAF) calculations disagree with that. F-35 was calculated to be cheaper to buy and operate than 4+ gen Super Hornet or especially Eurofighter Typhoon. USAF says that F-35 flight hour costs are not that much higher than in F-16C. F-22 is more expensive to operate than most 4th gen fighters, but it's also much larger and powerful aircraft than all current Western 4th gen fighters.



well said.

This isn't even close really. Even if the Rafale cheaper, the fact that the Typhoon (another gen 4.5) is so notoriously costly would seemingly hurt the Gen 4.5 argument, the same way including the expensive F-22 into F-35 accounting would hurt the 5th gen argument. F-35 is going to be completely competitive and again that ALREADY BEEN SHOWN with 4th gen and gen 4.5 operating costs. The Danes even proved it saved money because it was qualitatively better, meaning fewer 5th generation aircraft were even needed in the first place! so its not even a matter of 1 vs 1 CFPH comparison when the danes and others are also saving by not being forced to by larger numbers of airplanes that will have to be supported and maintained for decades.

yet another nail in the coffin when people consider the Belgium/poland F-35 prices vs the Rafale India price-- and the Belgians and Poles are still getting BETTER AND MORE CAPABLE AIRPLANES

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 04 Dec 2019, 23:07
by vilters
Facts and figures.

The USA is gonna build some 3.000+ F-35's, and they have the logistical chain in place to maintain the lot.
As an extra bonus : They have decades of experience with stealth on a number of "combat proven" airframes.

France : No stealth experience and as for numbers? Some 200 Rafales?
UK : No stealth and Tiffy at also around some 200 airframes.

No further explanation needed.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 04 Dec 2019, 23:27
by XanderCrews
vilters wrote:Facts and figures.

The USA is gonna build some 3.000+ F-35's, and they have the logistical chain in place to maintain the lot.
As an extra bonus : They have decades of experience with stealth on a number of "combat proven" airframes.


yup

France : No stealth experience and as for numbers? Some 200 Rafales?


not even 200.

UK : No stealth and Tiffy at also around some 200 airframes.

No further explanation needed.


the EF Typhoon program too had some serious issues with logistics and work shares if i recall. added a lot of cost.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2019, 02:48
by Corsair1963
wil59 wrote:
I understand myself, that's the main thing. You have your opinions, I have mine, say I'm taking medication without you saying why you didn't agree? Okay it's really easy, and without interest short...



Honestly, didn't think it was really worth my time..... :roll:

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2019, 03:07
by Corsair1963
vilters wrote:Facts and figures.

The USA is gonna build some 3.000+ F-35's, and they have the logistical chain in place to maintain the lot.
As an extra bonus : They have decades of experience with stealth on a number of "combat proven" airframes.

France : No stealth experience and as for numbers? Some 200 Rafales?
UK : No stealth and Tiffy at also around some 200 airframes.

No further explanation needed.



The larger numbers of F-35's produced will also have a positive impact on future upgrades. As the cost of development will be spread over a large base. This to will help drive down the cost of those upgrades!

The competition won't have that luxury. They will have fewer such upgrades and will have to pay more for the ones they do have.
:shock:

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2019, 10:14
by wil59
XanderCrews wrote:
. Um, look at the operating costs for a 5-generation aircraft and that of a 4-generation aircraft, maintenance for each flight hour, fuel cost for each flight hour, how many men for the maintenance of an aircraft vs. 4th generation!


the first thing is that CFPH has no set international standard and there are various methods even within the US about how to calculate it. moreover, its constantly shifting as in the US legacy airplanes cost more to CPFH every year. Eventually those curves meet and head in opposite directions.


You will see, but you already knew that exploiting a 5th generation is much more expensive. And now calculated over 15/20 years?.



If we are talking F-35 I'm going to bet heavily on a lower CPFH for F-35 than Rafale based on the fleet size and the fact that its a single engine alone. theres aready twice as Many F-35s in the world the last 10 years than there is the Rafale the last 38 years. This matters because one of the key notions behind the F-35 is a huge fleet size, economical manufacturing by mass and commonality within types. This is one of the reasons why F-35 is favorably compared with F-16 and other legacy platforms ALREADY. The sheer prices Rafale fetches on the international market, namely india also casts serious suspicion on its subsequent operating costs.

The F-22 is of course far more expensive and one of the reasons behind that is the SMALL FLEET SIZE.

I dont think the Rafale is cheap when theres even smaller numbers produced, with a very small annual production rate as well. Of all the Eurocanards Rafale has the smallest fleet size by far. India is a fiasco and its struggled with sales in Europe.

Dassault Aviation would not embark on a 5th generation project if it could not do so both technically and financially.



with enough time and money I have no doubt, but given the sheer amount of time and expense it took to create an airplane thats routinely outdone by the Super Hornet, you'll have to forgive me for being not really impressed at all.

on that note, as you whine about how theres no necessity for 5th generation, when 4th generation will do, then why is 4.5 necessary when Gen 4 will as you say, do just fine?

I think what started this argument was other like myself questioned with the benefit of hindsight if Gen 4.5 was really worth the time and expense that was put into it. Your arguments whether you mean to or not seemingly confirm that time and again.

Don't stop posting, you keep proving me right :mrgreen:

For the Rafale, the number of aircraft ordered has been a program that has been determined for many years, and when you look at the program, each version of the burst scrupulously respects the specifications pre-established since the beginning of the contract.


Here again you are mistaken! I would like to know who you are as a specialist, how the F-35 behaves at supersonic speed and how long it can stay that way. How would the structures react if the F-35 had to maneuver at 1.4 mach to avoid a missile in front approach considering that it would have to take a large number of G to avoid it?



you yourself specifically mentioned that fifth generation fighters handle things like the S-400 you specifically mentioned. So now your trying to come up with Xbox scenarios to prove what? you already conceded the point...

Make up your mind dude. one minute the Rafale is a cheap alternative for when the 5th generation is unnecessary overmatch and the next your telling us how superior Rafale is... and how 4th genaration can do what 5th can do, but 4.5 is totally necessary when Gen 4 will do:

wil59 wrote: a 4 th generation aircraft would have given the same results.


so 4.5 is unnecessary?

Image

worse than some of these Gripen Fanboys.

in fact your fanboyism is so over the top it only hurts your arguments and utterly lacks any objective looks or balanced factual accounting. This may not be the forum for you, we do actually try to avoid chatterboxing spamming fanboyism. There are many forums online that do support that. Your time may be better spent there, because you're not fooling anyone here.

Now the F-18 surpasses the Rafale! Um, can you elaborate?. There is one thing you can do, look at the testimonies of the F18 pilots who have done exercises with the Rafale on American carriers, you will see that they do not have the same opinions as you! While trying to minimize things, pride obliges! And I will remind you that even if the F-18 super-hornet was better on some things and worse on others, the prototype Rafale released in 1991, the prototype super-hornet made are first flight in 1995, so 2 planes from the same decade, so I have no problem with that. Despite this, I sincerely believe that the Rafale is superior to the f-18, more versatile (omnirole for Dassault determination) and sharper in dog-fight, with its aesa and Meteor combined this must give it an AA air superiority. And I could associate nuclear capacity as well.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2019, 14:31
by mixelflick
I think we've seen the last of UK designed fighters with the Typhoon. Granted it was a team effort, and it produced a fine aircraft. But the costs and expertise involved in designing a new, 5.5/6th gen fighter are just too much. And there's no guarantee it'll outperform the F-35, especially when unit cost, CPFH and integration into NATO's battlespace is taken into consideration.

No, with so many F-35's proliferating and bringing so much capability, a "new" next gen fighter for the UK isn't a smart investment. What I think will happen instead is the UK (and others) will produce more and better UAV's, which will be cheaper and compliment their F-35 fleets further out.

Too costly and entirely unrealistic IMO. I guess time will tell...

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2019, 16:32
by XanderCrews
I'll gladly elaborate, but first lets do a review:

You said the 5th generation has never seen combat-- that was false.

You said that anything the 5th generation could do, the 4th generation could do too-- this totally subverted your own original argument of the need for Gen 4.5 aircraft at all

you made a glib comment about the UK's next gen fighter being unccessary since the F-35 is awesome-- yet the purpose of the next Gen fighter is to replace the Typhoon, not the F-35

You claimed the F-35 was Superior to the Rafale -- this was TRUE. but

You then said the F-35 cost more-- this was demonstrably false.

I feel its important to bring up these points as you seem to post with some kind schizophrenic style and can't even keep track of your own claims. so lets begin again now on this small subject shall we?

wil59 wrote: Now the F-18 surpasses the Rafale! Um, can you elaborate?. There is one thing you can do, look at the testimonies of the F18 pilots who have done exercises with the Rafale on American carriers, you will see that they do not have the same opinions as you! While trying to minimize things, pride obliges!


I really don't care about pilot testimonies. I think at best they're guidelines. and should always be taken with a grain of salt. You seem to put a lot of stock into them so thats great. unprofessional but great. we also have pilots who consider the Rafale Underpowered, but lets not talk about that.


And I will remind you that even if the F-18 super-hornet was better on some things and worse on others, the prototype Rafale released in 1991, the prototype super-hornet made are first flight in 1995, so 2 planes from the same decade, so I have no problem with that.


I have no idea why this is relevant at all.

Despite this, I sincerely believe that the Rafale is superior to the f-18, more versatile (omnirole for Dassault determination) and sharper in dog-fight, with its aesa and Meteor combined this must give it an AA air superiority. And I could associate nuclear capacity as well.


if you check the stats of the legacy hornet vs the Rafale vs the Super Hornet, the Rafale and Legacy hornet match up extremely closely. so in terms of a lot of physical performance the Super Hornet has far more capacity this directly translates to more versatility with ordnance, range, and mission types. The Super Hornet also has the dedicated Growler EW version. The Super Hornet has many classified systems and other aspects that the Rafale lacks. (you can see the Canada competition for an example of this) I'll gladly conceede the Meteor is a great missile, but the Rafale is still closer to the old legacy ybug the USN has shed itself of. in the meantime the Super Hornet has an air to air kill with the boring old AMRAAM. and this is before getting into the Super Hornets impressive high AOA and control-ability

The Super Hornet/Growler has had far far more example produced and notable export success. The simple fact is that the super hornet does more, in great numbers and is the backbone of the USN. It fills a much larger perfromance "box" than the Rafale, even if the Rafale outclasses it in very narrow aspects in very specific examples. The Super Hornet simple does more, with more versatility. So when everyone is comparing what the Super Hornet can do better than the legacy hornet in terms of fuel and capacity etc, we also know with the Rafale and Legacy hornet so close in weight, loadout capacity, bringback capacity (one of the big objectives of the Super Hornet) and a host of other metrics its thus superior to the Rafale. in fact if the USN was offered Rafale as the Legacy Hornet replacement rather than the Super Hornet, Rafale would be quickly rejected. Its simple can't do the things the Super Hornet improved on. Again compare the stats of the 3 airplanes. You'll quickly see the occasional kilo for kilo similiarity between Hornet and Rafale, and the the SH outclassing them both


oh and as for the nuke LOL, its very funny to hear you say you don't need something like the F-35 since there aren't S-400s everywhere and then jump to nuclear weapons. Do you see what I mean about schizophrenia? Nobody needs to worry about S-400s, but Nukes are critical. Well Wil59, are we more likely to be encountering advanced SAMs or launching Nukes? I'd love to know.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2019, 23:43
by vilters
On a side note.
A very small side note.
Just a detail you know.

EVERYBODY that "had" 4 gen airframes is buying the F-35 (Including the UK , just another detail on an even smaller side note)

So ? ? Just as a detail you know. :doh:

Who on planet earth is going to buy the "next" European wonder? (never mind where it comes from France, Germany or UK)
All European countries are "served" for the next 50 years.

France and Germany?
Neither have the experience nor the resources to even start thinking about R&D.

And don't forget, each has the political obligation to protect its own industry. => Reason number ONE why nothing in Europe works.

Or are we waiting for the next Tornado, Tiffy, AM-400 failure.

Who cares, it's only taxpayers money.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 06 Dec 2019, 00:54
by XanderCrews
vilters wrote:On a side note.
A very small side note.
Just a detail you know.

EVERYBODY that "had" 4 gen airframes is buying the F-35 (Including the UK , just another detail on an even smaller side note)

So ? ? Just as a detail you know. :doh:

Who on planet earth is going to buy the "next" European wonder? (never mind where it comes from France, Germany or UK)
All European countries are "served" for the next 50 years.

France and Germany?
Neither have the experience nor the resources to even start thinking about R&D.

And don't forget, each has the political obligation to protect its own industry. => Reason number ONE why nothing in Europe works.

Or are we waiting for the next Tornado, Tiffy, AM-400 failure.

Who cares, it's only taxpayers money.


well the US only has decades of real world experience with 4th generation 4.5 generation and 5th generation, in some cased all 3 operating and fighting in the same AO. So surely they have no clue about the trade offs and advantages and attributes of the various types... all hail Rafale.

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: