UK next gen fighter

Corsair1963 · by **Corsair1963** » 01 Aug 2018, 01:37

jetblast16 wrote:Kinda makes you wonder where the US is at on its 6th gen fighter programmes, PCA or whatever you like to call it.

From all reports still in the early concept stages. Yet, considering on how little we really know about the F-35 and what it's ultimately capable of. It should hardly be a surprise....

Honestly, to me the Tempest looks closer to a 5.5 Generation Fighter than a true 6th Generation Fighter. (i.e. leap) Yet, after the Typhoon and Rafale. It's hard to imagine the UK would repeat the same mistake again???

jetblast16 · by **jetblast16** » 01 Aug 2018, 02:33

It's very early in the programme. Admittedly, the cockpit concept was pretty impressive, minus some concerns about the hand gestures required to interact with it. Overall, I found the actual aircraft concept vehicle to be fairly unimpressive. They did state in one of the videos that the 'Tempest' or whatever they decide to call/label it in the future could look much different than what was presented at the show. At any rate, the US needs to start finalizing some concepts to pursue if they have any hope of fielding a system (possibly systems) in the next 20 years or so to replace the Raptor, Super Hornet, etc.

marsavian · by **marsavian** » 01 Aug 2018, 16:57

As a collective group of aviation enthusiasts we should not get sucked up to manufacturers claims of post 5th generation aircraft until everyone agrees what 6th generation aircraft really are. Nothing I have seen proposed looks revolutionary compared to the F-35 which
is the quintessential mass produced 5th generation fighter. It really does have to have quantum leaps in capability to justify a next generation moniker.

marsavian · by **marsavian** » 26 Sep 2019, 22:03

MBDA unveils Team Tempest weapon system concepts

https://www.janes.com/article/91538/mbd ... m-concepts

Working with Leonardo and BAE Systems, MBDA is advancing a hard-kill defensive aid system (HK-DAS) concept as part of the platform's integrated defensive system. Designed to track, target, and intercept incoming missiles, HK-DAS is a compact < 1 m length, 10 kg-class imaging infrared (IIR) hit-to-kill missile, released from launchers integrated within the platform airframe. In keeping with its commonality, modularity, and reuse principle, the company is also considering, as part of the same conceptual family, a scalable Ground Attack Micromissile in the same form factor, but furnished with a small explosive payload to enable a close-air support role from the platform.

Team Tempest WVRAAM weapons concepts – foreground: Increased Calibre WVRAAM; behind: WVRAAM twin pack Source: MBDA

mixelflick · by **mixelflick** » 27 Sep 2019, 16:30

marsavian wrote:As a collective group of aviation enthusiasts we should not get sucked up to manufacturers claims of post 5th generation aircraft until everyone agrees what 6th generation aircraft really are. Nothing I have seen proposed looks revolutionary compared to the F-35 which
is the quintessential mass produced 5th generation fighter. It really does have to have quantum leaps in capability to justify a next generation moniker.

If you're talking about Tempest, I wholeheartedly agree.

If OTOH you're talking about PCA, I'm not sure the last part of your statement squares up. Last I heard, USAF was more concerned with getting something fielded timely, or at least a lot more timely than F-22/35 development. As such, it may or may not be a quantum leap. This is pure speculation, but I believe PCA is farther along in development than what's been made known. Something is driving the Russians to speed field the SU-57, and it looks like work on the Hunter drone is accelerating too.

Their prior statements about SU-35/SU-30SM's/Mig-29's being "adequate to meet the threat, SU-57 can wait etc.".... you don't hear them singing that song anymore. I suppose it may be a realization the F-35 is better than advertised too, but something is driving modernization efforts. If I was a betting man, I'd say Pratt or GE have made a breakthrough in engine technology and more importantly, made it affordable. If we lead in anything, it's engine tech. That might be what's causing them some concern..

marsavian · by **marsavian** » 27 Sep 2019, 17:17

Sixth generation will be hypersonic aircraft, a true quantum leap, ushered in hopefully with the SR-72. Any other future stealth highly networked aircraft will still be 5th generation no matter how much marketing BS the manufacturers spin.

mixelflick · by **mixelflick** » 28 Sep 2019, 15:06

marsavian wrote:Sixth generation will be hypersonic aircraft, a true quantum leap, ushered in hopefully with the SR-72. Any other future stealth highly networked aircraft will still be 5th generation no matter how much marketing BS the manufacturers spin.

Interesting criteria. So if PCA isn't hypersonic but has other ground breaking technology (in sensors, engines or weapons), you wouldn't say it qualifies as "6th gen"?

That wouldn't be my criteria, but I respect yours. I think the odds PCA will be hyper-sonic are incredibly low, especially if the Air Force wants it anytime soon. It seems we're having a hard enough time getting a hypersonic missile/weapon, nevermind manned aircraft. The SR-72 is rumored to be hypersonic, but translating that into a new airframe with an air dominance mission seems unlikely. And expensive as hell, leading to low production numbers and a high per unit cost.

But perhaps you're right. I guess time will tell.

marsavian · by **marsavian** » 28 Sep 2019, 17:36

The SR-72 is rumored to be hypersonic, but translating that into a new airframe with an air dominance mission seems unlikely.

Hypersonic aircraft will not only fly fast but high as well. Look at all the fits SR-71 gave aircraft trying to intercept it now imagine something going nearly twice as fast. As a bomber it will have unique features in how far it can release ordinance from an internal bay way beyond any delivery platform now. Think of it as a possible replacement for the B-1A which never got built.

inst · by **inst** » 28 Sep 2019, 19:11

marsavian wrote:Sixth generation will be hypersonic aircraft, a true quantum leap, ushered in hopefully with the SR-72. Any other future stealth highly networked aircraft will still be 5th generation no matter how much marketing BS the manufacturers spin.

It is possible that "6th generation" systems in development will be closer to 5.5th generation. I'd define a generational leap as being able to soundly defeat the earliest variants of the previous generation. The F-15, for instance, was able to defeat all Soviet 3rd generation fighters as a member of the 4th generation, although the MiG-25 had tactics that could have defeated the F-15 or at least put it back to a 1:1 loss ratio (slow speed, fire first with the radar range, then zoom out of F-15 NEZ).

Systems that can do that would be, first, hypersonic aircraft that can outrun enemy missiles or render interception impossible. Another would be unmanned high-agility aircraft, which could bypass the G-limits of existing air-to-air missiles. A third would be hard-kill laser weapons, which could shoot down enemy air-to-air missiles as well as enemy aircraft. A true 6th generation aircraft would ideally combine the three capabilities.

inst · by **inst** » 28 Sep 2019, 19:19

mixelflick wrote:
marsavian wrote:As a collective group of aviation enthusiasts we should not get sucked up to manufacturers claims of post 5th generation aircraft until everyone agrees what 6th generation aircraft really are. Nothing I have seen proposed looks revolutionary compared to the F-35 which
is the quintessential mass produced 5th generation fighter. It really does have to have quantum leaps in capability to justify a next generation moniker.

If you're talking about Tempest, I wholeheartedly agree.

If OTOH you're talking about PCA, I'm not sure the last part of your statement squares up. Last I heard, USAF was more concerned with getting something fielded timely, or at least a lot more timely than F-22/35 development. As such, it may or may not be a quantum leap. This is pure speculation, but I believe PCA is farther along in development than what's been made known. Something is driving the Russians to speed field the SU-57, and it looks like work on the Hunter drone is accelerating too.

Their prior statements about SU-35/SU-30SM's/Mig-29's being "adequate to meet the threat, SU-57 can wait etc.".... you don't hear them singing that song anymore. I suppose it may be a realization the F-35 is better than advertised too, but something is driving modernization efforts. If I was a betting man, I'd say Pratt or GE have made a breakthrough in engine technology and more importantly, made it affordable. If we lead in anything, it's engine tech. That might be what's causing them some concern..

There are significant rumors about the US having made a breakthrough in engine technology, with claims that classified US engine technologies are powering next-generation American missiles like AIM-260, MSDM, and SACM. This could quite possibly end up being applied to fighter aircraft, enabling hypersonics or at least getting the F-35 to kinematic par.

With the F135, we've seen the cutting edge of American engine technology circa 2007. What's the cutting edge in 2019?

madrat · by **madrat** » 29 Sep 2019, 02:18

The experience over Syria woke up Russia. Now they are fearing Chinese progress and realize they are way behind even Europe

inst · by **inst** » 29 Sep 2019, 02:48

madrat wrote:The experience over Syria woke up Russia. Now they are fearing Chinese progress and realize they are way behind even Europe

I mean, the Russian end-game is to join the EU on their terms or have the EU just get subsumed by their Eurasian Union entity. In the West, we don't believe the Russians have any decent long-term strategic potential. But Russia as part of the EU or controlling the EU matches European economics to Russian military power and R&D power.

With that in consideration, they can't compete with the Chinese in the long-run unless they absorb the EU, and the Chinese are more likely to back the Russians at least in the short-run as a more autocratic / socialist EU removes the ideological conflict between Europe and China.

I'd see the renewed focus on the Su-57 as more of an attempt to keep their arms export industry alive and their military industry alive. With F-35s jetting around, who would want to buy an Su-35, unless the point is to take it apart as with the Chinese purchase? The Su-57, if the Russians can get it as cheap as they claim, is at least competitive with the F-35 even if it's likely the Su-57 can't compete on a parity basis with the F-35.

And, well, the Chinese believed that their J-11 (Flanker clones) and J-10s could, with appropriate tactics, counter American 5th generation aircraft, even if it had to rely on numerical superiority (see RAND study on crippling the F-22 by knocking out tankers). The Chinese quickly changed their tune the moment they had the J-20 running and began running war games against their J-11 and J-10 aircraft. Even with AEW&C support, the J-20s end up dominating J-11s and J-10s.

Something similar could have occurred with Russia; when you don't have stealth, you'll play up your counterstealth equipment, and perhaps drink your own Kool-Aid. Once you have stealth and test your own 5th gens vs your 4th gens, your tune rapidly changes.

hythelday · by **hythelday** » 27 Nov 2019, 09:35

Airbus hoping to combine British Tempest jet project with Franco-German effort

Guillaume Faury, the chief executive of Airbus has called for a single European fighter jet programme, merging British and continental European efforts.

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/airbus- ... an-effort/

Corsair1963 · by **Corsair1963** » 27 Nov 2019, 10:14

hythelday wrote:Airbus hoping to combine British Tempest jet project with Franco-German effort

Guillaume Faury, the chief executive of Airbus has called for a single European fighter jet programme, merging British and continental European efforts.

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/airbus- ... an-effort/

Very very unlikely.....UK has no interest in playing second fiddle to France and/or Germany. Especially, the former...

Corsair1963 · by **Corsair1963** » 27 Nov 2019, 10:55

marsavian wrote:As a collective group of aviation enthusiasts we should not get sucked up to manufacturers claims of post 5th generation aircraft until everyone agrees what 6th generation aircraft really are. Nothing I have seen proposed looks revolutionary compared to the F-35 which
is the quintessential mass produced 5th generation fighter. It really does have to have quantum leaps in capability to justify a next generation moniker.

Actually, I think the US is very wise to take it's time with the PCA/NGAD. As we haven't figured out half of what the F-35 can really do. Let alone the Generation (6th) beyond that....

This while Europe appears to be making the same mistake they did with both the Rafale and Typhoon. That is instead of developing them as 5th Generation Fighters. They took a small leap (less risky) and developed the two aforementioned as "4.5 Generation Fighters". Yet, by time they arrived the American 5th Generation F-22 and F-35 where hot on their heels....

Maybe it's just me but the FCAS and Tempest sure look more like a 5.5 Generation Fighter. Than a big leap 6th Generation one....