UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2018, 00:34
by zerion
Excluded from cooperative plans in Europe, UK sets groundwork for future fighters

LONDON ― Expectations are growing among industry executives and analysts that the British government will use a huge gathering of international air force chiefs in the U.K. in mid-July to outline a strategy leading to development of a new generation of fighter jets for the post-2040 era.

Left out in the cold by a joint Franco-German plan to develop a new fighter, Ministry of Defence officials ― supported by industry ― have been working for months on a combat air strategy to sustain Britain’s capabilities beyond the Eurofighter Typhoon, and they are determined to figure out a way forward this summer.

With more than 50 air force chiefs from around the world expected to attend the Royal International Air Tattoo at Fairford, southern England, as part of the Royal Air Force’s centenary celebrations, it is likely the British will use the event to kick-start plans to develop an eventual replacement for the Typhoons, which form the backbone of the country’s fighter fleet...

“I do get the impression they will go for something big in the way of an announcement. It could be something along the lines of ‘this is what we would like to do, and we want to do it with partners.’ In part it’s meant to be a bit of a shock to France and Germany,” Wheeldon said...

https://www.defensenews.com/digital-sho ... -fighters/

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2018, 07:27
by geforcerfx
The UK is the type of ally that we can throw them into PCA if they want and the fighter fills there projected needs.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2018, 07:35
by Corsair1963
I could see the UK and US partnering with a number of Asian Countries. To jointly develop a 6th Generation Fighter. With countries like Australia and Japan being high on the list. We could also see somebody like South Korea or even India join in.....think F-35 but an Asian Focus.

:2c:

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2018, 13:35
by zero-one
Corsair1963 wrote:I could see the UK and US partnering with a number of Asian Countries. To jointly develop a 6th Generation Fighter. With countries like Australia and Japan being high on the list. We could also see somebody like South Korea or even India join in.....think F-35 but an Asian Focus.

:2c:


Since the common enemy is China, this is a good venture. Has China overtaken Russia as the top tier adversary already?

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2018, 17:09
by sferrin
I would like to see a UK /Japan /South Korea team up. They'd have all the bases covered.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2018, 17:14
by disconnectedradical
sferrin wrote:I would like to see a UK /Japan /South Korea team up. They'd have all the bases covered.


Japan and South Korea teaming up though?

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2018, 18:36
by sferrin
disconnectedradical wrote:
sferrin wrote:I would like to see a UK /Japan /South Korea team up. They'd have all the bases covered.


Japan and South Korea teaming up though?


Why not? They have a lot of common interests. I wish they'd try to settle their past grudges and move on.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2018, 18:39
by geforcerfx
sferrin wrote:
disconnectedradical wrote:
sferrin wrote:I would like to see a UK /Japan /South Korea team up. They'd have all the bases covered.


Japan and South Korea teaming up though?


Why not? They have a lot of common interests. I wish they'd try to settle their past grudges and move on.


They did a decent amount of mending ties last year with the Nork Nuke threat. I see there relationship like the USA's and Vietnam, it's getting better just needs time, China and Nork accelerated the progress over the last few years.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2018, 19:51
by disconnectedradical
sferrin wrote:
disconnectedradical wrote:
sferrin wrote:I would like to see a UK /Japan /South Korea team up. They'd have all the bases covered.


Japan and South Korea teaming up though?


Why not? They have a lot of common interests. I wish they'd try to settle their past grudges and move on.


Right now they're getting closer but is it close enough to team up on a project like this? I have some South Korean and Japanese friends and let's say the grudges between the two are deep rooted, don't know how much it will change in near future.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 27 Jun 2018, 00:33
by weasel1962
JP-SK team up. Not going to happen.

If anyone has been to Korea, one'd still sees Dokdo adverts on their public transport. Whilst it may appears a win-win for both sides, the underlying politics would prevent any real or meaningful cooperation to enable a successful program. Each already have their own F-X programs. No real incentive to merge anytime.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 27 Jun 2018, 01:11
by eagleowl
And what would there be to 'merge' anyway? It's just going to be something like a work-share agreement for manufacturing. I'd rather be in (for military aviation) Dassault's current position as the sole developer of the Rafale than Airbus as a part of Eurofighter GmbH. (Or BAE as part of the JSF for that matter)

If technology sharing is what's needed then a well defined joint development programs with narrow scopes seem preferable. Like agree to develop Variable cycle engine technology cooperatively and improve any shortfalls in technology needed for a 6th generation fighter. Japan and the UK both have enough money to pay for fighter development without joining themselves at the hip.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 27 Jun 2018, 07:41
by Corsair1963
zero-one wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:I could see the UK and US partnering with a number of Asian Countries. To jointly develop a 6th Generation Fighter. With countries like Australia and Japan being high on the list. We could also see somebody like South Korea or even India join in.....think F-35 but an Asian Focus.

:2c:


Since the common enemy is China, this is a good venture. Has China overtaken Russia as the top tier adversary already?



Easily.....

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 27 Jun 2018, 07:46
by Corsair1963
weasel1962 wrote:JP-SK team up. Not going to happen.

If anyone has been to Korea, one'd still sees Dokdo adverts on their public transport. Whilst it may appears a win-win for both sides, the underlying politics would prevent any real or meaningful cooperation to enable a successful program. Each already have their own F-X programs. No real incentive to merge anytime.



I agree considerable bad feelings still under the surface. Yet, things are slowly improving.....



Also, if the program is similar to the F-35. Then Japan and South Korea would be just partners in a broad sense. (among many) So, I wouldn't rule it out. Of course much likely depend on what happen with North Korea....

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 27 Jun 2018, 12:05
by jakobs
geforcerfx wrote:The UK is the type of ally that we can throw them into PCA if they want and the fighter fills there projected needs.


Not sure if they want to though. Firstly I'm getting the impressions that the PCA will be a much bigger plane and I'm not sure UK is looking in that same direction.

Secondly I would guess that UK don't want their next project to be attached to the US at all simply because of the much smaller role it gives them in the overall project. From whats coming out of London these days focus seems all about the future of their aviation industry.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 27 Jun 2018, 13:23
by sferrin
eagleowl wrote:And what would there be to 'merge' anyway? It's just going to be something like a work-share agreement for manufacturing. I'd rather be in (for military aviation) Dassault's current position as the sole developer of the Rafale than Airbus as a part of Eurofighter GmbH. (Or BAE as part of the JSF for that matter)

If technology sharing is what's needed then a well defined joint development programs with narrow scopes seem preferable. Like agree to develop Variable cycle engine technology cooperatively and improve any shortfalls in technology needed for a 6th generation fighter. Japan and the UK both have enough money to pay for fighter development without joining themselves at the hip.


And yet the US teamed with many nations on the F-35 despite the fact it could have done it all on it's own (see F-22). It's called "sharing the cost of development".

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 28 Jun 2018, 01:00
by Corsair1963
sferrin wrote:
eagleowl wrote:And what would there be to 'merge' anyway? It's just going to be something like a work-share agreement for manufacturing. I'd rather be in (for military aviation) Dassault's current position as the sole developer of the Rafale than Airbus as a part of Eurofighter GmbH. (Or BAE as part of the JSF for that matter)

If technology sharing is what's needed then a well defined joint development programs with narrow scopes seem preferable. Like agree to develop Variable cycle engine technology cooperatively and improve any shortfalls in technology needed for a 6th generation fighter. Japan and the UK both have enough money to pay for fighter development without joining themselves at the hip.


And yet the US teamed with many nations on the F-35 despite the fact it could have done it all on it's own (see F-22). It's called "sharing the cost of development".



The F-35 is already such a leap over the competition. That many countries will be forced to join with the US for a 6th Generation Fighter. If, they have any hope of being competitive..... :shock:

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 28 Jun 2018, 13:43
by sferrin
Corsair1963 wrote:
sferrin wrote:
eagleowl wrote:And what would there be to 'merge' anyway? It's just going to be something like a work-share agreement for manufacturing. I'd rather be in (for military aviation) Dassault's current position as the sole developer of the Rafale than Airbus as a part of Eurofighter GmbH. (Or BAE as part of the JSF for that matter)

If technology sharing is what's needed then a well defined joint development programs with narrow scopes seem preferable. Like agree to develop Variable cycle engine technology cooperatively and improve any shortfalls in technology needed for a 6th generation fighter. Japan and the UK both have enough money to pay for fighter development without joining themselves at the hip.


And yet the US teamed with many nations on the F-35 despite the fact it could have done it all on it's own (see F-22). It's called "sharing the cost of development".


The F-35 is already such a leap over the competition. That many countries will be forced to join with the US for a 6th Generation Fighter. If, they have any hope of being competitive..... :shock:


That's also why I think the UK, SK, and Japan would be better off combining their resources instead of any of them trying to go it alone.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 29 Jun 2018, 12:57
by mixelflick
Given they couldn't develop a 5th gen, what makes them think they can develop a 6th gen? I don't just mean the UK, but whatever European partner nations sign on for this project?

The necessary expertise won't come from the UK, France, certainly not Germany. They did a nice job on their Eurocanards which are very competitive 4th plus gen jets but..... it's like the Russians trying to develop the SU-57 today. With no prior experience in stealth, super-cruise or integrated avionics and without the $, it's really a stretch they'll come up with 6th gen anything..

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 30 Jun 2018, 14:53
by sferrin
mixelflick wrote:Given they couldn't develop a 5th gen, what makes them think they can develop a 6th gen? I don't just mean the UK, but whatever European partner nations sign on for this project?

The necessary expertise won't come from the UK, France, certainly not Germany. They did a nice job on their Eurocanards which are very competitive 4th plus gen jets but..... it's like the Russians trying to develop the SU-57 today. With no prior experience in stealth, super-cruise or integrated avionics and without the $, it's really a stretch they'll come up with 6th gen anything..


China seems to be doing fine (but then they've got full access to all US stealth information pretty much). :doh: :doh: :bang: :bang:

J-20.jpg


32686277401_984b9580e1_o.png

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 30 Jun 2018, 17:54
by mixelflick
Here again, I think you need to question the "China is doing fine" assumption..

We know for example its motors are WAY behind. Further behind than even the Russians. So no supercruise, which is a key component of a true gen 5 aircraft. And "full access" to US stealth information? Yes, there has been some espionage. But full access is taking it too far. Knowing and having the mass production, fine tolerances to build fleets of said stealth fighters is another matter altogether.

We assume stealth, but little is known (or made public) as to its true stealth capabilities. If the Indian claim of SU-30MKI's detecting the J-20 are to be believed, that assumption is out the window too. Integrated avionics and superior SA? Nobody knows. But given the engine issues and less than all aspect stealth, I wouldn't be betting the farm it has those either.

What we may be seeing is something with better stealth qualities vs. the SU-57, but considerably worse than the F-117. That puts it somewhere in the neighborhood of a better Super Hornet (RCS wise), but still quite visible vs. the F-22 and F-35. It won't be a super-cruiser (at least initially), and it'll have better SA than their J-10C/J-11 variants, but likely far short of what the F-22 and 35 have achieved.

What is clear: Designing and fielding 5th gen aircraft is a spendy, time consuming process that took the US fully 3 generations of stealth to get it to where it is today. The likelihood that Russia, China or anyone else getting that right on its first try is (to put it mildly), unlikely...

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 30 Jun 2018, 19:54
by sferrin
Yes, "full access" was an obvious exaggeration, but sometimes it sure seems that way. Just look at how fast they're progressing due to cyber espionage giving them a leg up, and how many weapon systems they're copying. As for the engine situation:

comparison-between-al-31f-and-ws-15.jpg


WS-15 on the right.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 30 Jun 2018, 20:54
by wrightwing
Looks like they have some LOANesque nozzles, too.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 01 Jul 2018, 03:19
by weasel1962
Even if China is not doing fine today, its not just the snapshot but as important is the growth trajectory. The gap is closing. The trajectory is what Trump is trying to derail.

Its reaching an inflection point that the Chinese think there's not much else to copy. Instead the focus is shifting towards what else they can develop to gain an edge. The PLAAF is not waiting for a 6 gen plane to appear to copy. They are already thinking what it should look like.

Like the F-35, the J20 will continue to integrate new tech including new engines etc. The J-20 may not be stealthy but it is clearly stealthier, without external items, than legacy fighters. If America is going to fight China today, sure, the snapshot is important. However China isn't looking at fighting America today, its looking into the future.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 01 Jul 2018, 11:11
by marsavian
PCA would be a good fit for UK/Japan/Australia. They all have to defend islands/continent over large sea distances so require performance/range/persistence that the PCA would provide. Would also lower the cost for the US in providing more production numbers. Israel would probably pick up a few too to replace their F-15E/I on the long range strike role. Broadly I see the PCA being the generic F-15 replacement that F-22 was supposed to be.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 01 Jul 2018, 17:14
by mixelflick
marsavian wrote:PCA would be a good fit for UK/Japan/Australia. They all have to defend islands/continent over large sea distances so require performance/range/persistence that the PCA would provide. Would also lower the cost for the US in providing more production numbers. Israel would probably pick up a few too to replace their F-15E/I on the long range strike role. Broadly I see the PCA being the generic F-15 replacement that F-22 was supposed to be.


Really? I wasn't thinking that at all...

PCA will likely break new ground insofar as having the persistence/range closer to a bomber vs. fighter. That means an airframe bigger than today's fighters, again closer to FB-111/B-58 size vs. F-15/F-22. It's radar and sensors will be more comparable to JSTARS than the typical AESA/fighter airframe of today, and a laser/directed energy weapon means it'll be a big bird as well. All of that points to a new, more strategic role for it escorting B-21 Raiders and perhaps unmanned platforms during ISR sorties, along with more typical air superiority missions.

Here's the big question: Will the Navy try and field a carrier borne version? They've been out of the air superiority biz for a long time now, and seem to favor the "strike fighter" thing ala the SH, F-35 etc.. They've done so because of $ of course, betting the farm said strike fighters can wrestle control of the air away from the enemy vs. having a dedicated fighter for that mission (last seen in 2006, when the Tomcat was retired).

I'm afraid it's going to be a LONG time before we see such an aircraft again, at least in USN service. I hope they don't have to learn that lesson the hard way. Hopefully, the F-35 can carry that load, but it's no F-22. And with only around 350 of them, air superiority hangs on a particularly perilous string...

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 01 Jul 2018, 17:19
by rheonomic
mixelflick wrote:Here's the big question: Will the Navy try and field a carrier borne version?

Navy NGAD will probably be distinct from whatever the Air Force does.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 02 Jul 2018, 03:07
by Corsair1963
rheonomic wrote:
mixelflick wrote:Here's the big question: Will the Navy try and field a carrier borne version?

Navy NGAD will probably be distinct from whatever the Air Force does.




That is the plan but can the US Government really afford to fund two 6th Generation Fighter Programs???

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 02 Jul 2018, 13:33
by marsavian
mixelflick wrote:
marsavian wrote:PCA would be a good fit for UK/Japan/Australia. They all have to defend islands/continent over large sea distances so require performance/range/persistence that the PCA would provide. Would also lower the cost for the US in providing more production numbers. Israel would probably pick up a few too to replace their F-15E/I on the long range strike role. Broadly I see the PCA being the generic F-15 replacement that F-22 was supposed to be.


Really? I wasn't thinking that at all...

PCA will likely break new ground insofar as having the persistence/range closer to a bomber vs. fighter. That means an airframe bigger than today's fighters, again closer to FB-111/B-58 size vs. F-15/F-22. It's radar and sensors will be more comparable to JSTARS than the typical AESA/fighter airframe of today, and a laser/directed energy weapon means it'll be a big bird as well. All of that points to a new, more strategic role for it escorting B-21 Raiders and perhaps unmanned platforms during ISR sorties, along with more typical air superiority missions.

Here's the big question: Will the Navy try and field a carrier borne version? They've been out of the air superiority biz for a long time now, and seem to favor the "strike fighter" thing ala the SH, F-35 etc.. They've done so because of $ of course, betting the farm said strike fighters can wrestle control of the air away from the enemy vs. having a dedicated fighter for that mission (last seen in 2006, when the Tomcat was retired).

I'm afraid it's going to be a LONG time before we see such an aircraft again, at least in USN service. I hope they don't have to learn that lesson the hard way. Hopefully, the F-35 can carry that load, but it's no F-22. And with only around 350 of them, air superiority hangs on a particularly perilous string...


I don't disagree with your assertion that it would be FB-111/B-58 size maybe even bigger but with two F-135 Advent engines giving around 100 klbf total wet thrust it would still be taking off with a thrust/weight ratio around unity just like the F-15 but with much more range and stealth. A big wing to carry all that fuel would also give a reasonable wing loading. The thrust advances of modern engines make a long range escort interceptor also capable of being agile with a good design.

As to what the Navy will do no doubt they will engineer a contest which only a future Boeing aircraft can win ;).

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 02 Jul 2018, 14:20
by mixelflick
Jesus, you're right.

You just know that Boeing has something based on the Hornet ready to go. They've already marketed the Super Duper, so God knows what they'll call it this time. My grandchildren will be cursed with seeing Hornet derivatives flying from the decks of super-carriers. I was hoping I'd see those damned F-18's fly off into the sunset before I die, but all hope was lost when the Navy said "yes" to the block III upgrade...

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 03 Jul 2018, 17:00
by XanderCrews
The UK hasn't built a fighter by itself since the 1960s.


The odds of the south Korea, north Korea, and japan all joining to build a fighter are higher than the UK building it's own fighter all by itself

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 03 Jul 2018, 17:00
by XanderCrews
The UK hasn't built a fighter by itself since the 1960s.


The odds of the south Korea, north Korea, and japan all joining to build a fighter are higher than the UK building it's own fighter all by itself

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 03 Jul 2018, 17:26
by talkitron
Here is a long background article on the UK's upcoming strategy decision on whether and how to develop a sixth generation aircraft. Here is a quote from the section on potential partners.

UK mulls sixth generation fighter project

Meanwhile, defence analyst and commentator Howard Wheeldon has this view on potential partners: “My preference for a sixth-generation combat aircraft (or system) development would be for a collaboration on manned aircraft development based on relatively small numbers of aircraft being required and that would involve France, Britain, Germany and Italy. Alongside this, however, I would like to see the UK alone invest more into unmanned combat air capability development on its own or with a chosen partner. My second option would be for the UK to come together with Sweden and maybe some other Nordic states to develop next generation manned and unmanned combat aircraft capability. UK Typhoon export customers may well wish to have some involvement in this and it has not escaped my notice that the UK/Turkey TF-X manned combat aircraft capability development might also play into this idea.”

Wheeldon also cautions that, given the disparity between the US defence budget and rest of the world, “from a potential development cost and affordability basis, further collaborative partnerships with the US would seem to be unlikely” for a piloted sixth-generation combat aircraft.

The UK going it alone, however, says Hayward is: “impossible to contemplate” as an “independent development is far too expensive.” Barrie concurs: “Going it alone for a full blown programme doesn’t strike me as feasible. Given that it took near a decade (1975-1985) for the shape of the previous European combat aircraft developments to shake out, I suspect it may take some time for partnership structures to emerge, including on the Franco-German effort and on wherever the UK goes. A mix and match of traditional and new partners is an option, with perhaps some at the systems level only rather than on any whole project.”




https://www.aerosociety.com/news/uk-mul ... r-project/

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 03 Jul 2018, 17:37
by SpudmanWP
I love how many people throw around the "6th Gen" phrase before it's been defined and without having any "5th Gen" experience.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 03 Jul 2018, 18:17
by talkitron
The article is correct that to have a fighter ready in 2040 (on a European budget) you have to start spending money now. So you have to guess at what a sixth generation fighter will be now. We will see if the UK release more specifics with the upcoming combat aircraft industrial strategy document.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 03 Jul 2018, 20:58
by SpudmanWP
Saying "sixth generation fighter" means that you plan on having something that will differentiate from the current Gen in a significant way. Claiming that your new fighter will somehow be significantly better than something that you yourself did not develop & have no experience in building is what I find funny. You can't skip a Gen just by saying so.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 04 Jul 2018, 14:07
by mixelflick
It is increasingly clear that even if a country has the expertise (doubtful), they lack the $ necessary to fund a 5th generation fighter's development and deployment. Thus far it's a small club with the expertise (U.S. and presumably, China). The cost is astronomical, and there's no guarantee of success either. Very possible a country or partner countries could spend billions and at the end of the day, not have a viable product.

How then they propose to build a 6th gen is beyond me. At some point you have to put national pride aside and deal with reality IMO

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 04 Jul 2018, 16:22
by talkitron
We are talking about a fighter entering service in 2040. The UK (perhaps with some partners like Sweden) could build a F-35 clone with a few twists by 2040. Would it be better than new production F-35s in 2040? That is unclear; probably not given that a new build Typhoon (like for Kuwait) is probably slightly better in air-to-air and moderately worse in air-to-ground than a new build F-15E (like the F-15SA for Saudi Arabia).

The UK itself is fielding F-35s so the UK realizes it must do better than the F-35 in some dimensions in order to have a viable commercial product in 2040. Hence the need to speculate about what comes next: unmanned, manned control of unmanned wingmen, energy weapons, hypersonic speed, etc.

The higher speed engines might be good for Rolls-Royce's commercial business as well.

Here is a more news release-based article on this topic.

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/bae-awa ... stem-work/

BAE awarded contract for Future Combat Air System work

A key aspect of this procurement’s single source justification is MOD cumulative investment (over a number of decades) into BAE Systems (Operations) Ltd, as the UK’s lead Air systems integrator.

During this time BAE Systems (Operations) Ltd have built up a unique level of credible and capable technical expertise and Suitably Qualified Experienced Personnel (SQEP), and is necessary for the integrated delivery of concepts, associated requirements and the application of technology.


Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 05 Jul 2018, 16:37
by talkitron
There are going to be a lot of these UK next gen fighter articles leading up to the release of the combat air strategy, even though that document will be light on details. Here is an article on the UK possibly partnering with Sweden.

https://www.ft.com/content/818c6b98-7fc ... 1a0846c475

UK in talks with Sweden over next-generation fighter jet

The statement is expected to set out the criteria for international collaboration, stressing that the UK intends to play a leading design role in any partnership to develop a fighter to replace the Typhoon jet from 2040. Sweden — whose defence flagship, Saab, makes the Gripen combat aircraft — has indicated its potential interest and would be a natural partner, according to several sources.

The strategy will aim to do just that and will be a “strong statement of national interest”, according to one person close to the subject. However, it will not mention the Franco-German accord and will deliberately leave the door open to other partners. As well as Sweden, Japan and South Korea could be potential partners, industry sources said.


Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 05 Jul 2018, 19:30
by jakobs
I would love for us to join the UK. I think both Sweden and UK would get bigger industrial benefits in such a program rather than if any of the two joined France and Germany.

Not sure about bringing in Japan, they are way to much in bed with US on such issues. I have a very hard time seeing them abandon that for a European project.

Not sure about South Korea, but they seem very eager to get their own project going without other major countries involved except for component supply. Similar to what we in Sweden have been doing I would say.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 10 Jul 2018, 18:59
by talkitron
This is a workshop related to UK industrial policy in the combat aircraft sector. Likely the title is more exciting than the content for many here. I put one nice quote below.

https://t.co/fuZdskhFyJ

UK Combat Air – The Next Generation

If you don’t control the concept design, you do not control the programme. The end design emerges from a proper process/dialogue of . Design and requirements co-evolve through exploring what you can afford through-life. This means ensuring adaptability is designed in from the beginning with features like modularity and adequate margins for future sub-systems and aircraft supporting systems (weight, power, etc.). Concept exploration should push the boundaries and constraints because it is often constraints that prevent maximising aspects like adaptability and minimising supportability and sustainability.


Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 12 Jul 2018, 00:22
by talkitron
This article about a new UK fighter has a few newsworthy paragraphs about the concept work and competition with the French and Germans.


Why an unmanned fighter fleet isn’t yet viable, in the words of Britain’s Air Force chief

Tempest ― an industry grouping comprising BAE Systems, Leonardo, MBDA and Rolls-Royce ― has been doing conceptual work with the Royal Air Force rapid capability office since at least the turn of the year on the sort of capabilities any future fighter might need.

A second phase of work is now in discussion between the Tempest participants.

Whatever the combat air strategy looks like, Hillier has given notice that it will be different from a Franco-German offering.

“I don’t feel the U.K. role is to chase after France and Germany. We want to define what’s best for us and we will bring other nations with us. If in the future it includes France and Germany, that will be healthy as well,“ he said.

“What we are not going to do is just follow where other nations go. We have world-leading capabilities, we are going to define what we are going to do in the future and we are going to draw other nations towards us,” he added. “We have a leading role in the Typhoon [program] and a significant role on the F-35. This is what we are capable of, and from a U.K. perspective we intend to continue to have that position in [the] future.”


https://www.defensenews.com/digital-sho ... rce-chief/

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 12 Jul 2018, 01:50
by madrat
Tempest always was an unexciting and uninspiring name to me. Names like Hurricane and Spitfire evoke emotion. Wyvern even elicits a fantasy concept that beckons knights in shining armor battling fire-breathing dragons. Tempest? Not so much. Sounds like a reference to one of Shakespeare's more underwhelming themes for a play, maybe even makes me think it was one of his flops. Even Mosquito would be a better namesake, especially for a performance twin-engine fighter void of as much metal as possible.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 13 Jul 2018, 00:37
by talkitron
I like the name Tempest. :D It fits in with Hurricane and Typhoon.

Here is the RAF Air Power 2018 magazine; 2018 is the 100th anniversary of the RAF. There are short articles by many of the top brass. There is not what I would call true news in this publication but many people might find summaries of some of what is going on with the RAF interesting.

https://issuu.com/globalmediapartners/d ... power_2018

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 16 Jul 2018, 11:46
by talkitron
The UK Combat Air Strategy: An ambitious vision for the future is out. Happy reading! There will be many articles summarizing this over the next few days. There is also a mockup of a Tempest fighter at the UK air show going on right now.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... Lowres.pdf

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 16 Jul 2018, 14:40
by talkitron
Here is the BAE news article on today’s announcements. It seems like the Tempest is being sold on flexibility more than absolute performance. It will be easier to upgrade and more modular in its payload than current combat aircraft. Here is a quote. The page also has an animated graphic.

Depending on the mission, ‘role fit’ additions such as low observable conformal fuel tanks, weapons dispensers, air launched UAV dispensers, large modular sensors, long range oblique photography systems for reconnaissance and Laser Directed Energy Weapons could be available.


The BAE article mentions some medium term additions to Typhoon:

1. Spear Cap 3 ground attack missile
2. Enhancement to Storm Shadow cruise missile
3. New helmet
4. Lightning V target pod
5. BriteCloud, more flares
6. AESA radar (E-Scan)

https://www.baesystems.com/en/feature/t ... gn=fia2018

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 16 Jul 2018, 14:53
by marsavian

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 16 Jul 2018, 16:28
by zhangmdev
Tempest is a nice name. The concept reminds me of Monica.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 16 Jul 2018, 18:34
by talkitron
Here is an article saying budget realities surrounding the Tempest program will reduce the UK F-35 buy in the 2030's. The author speculates on the military features of the shape of the air frame.

The various artworks and the demonstrator model all includes canted vertical stabilisers, which are a feature on all currently operational fighter aircraft, but not the US Air Force’s famous B-2 Spirit stealth bomber, or various flying wing/cranked kite shapes that have come to characterise unmanned combat aerial vehicle (UCAV) demonstrators produced around the world, including Taranis, nEUROn, Sharp Sword, SCAT and X-47B. Vertical stabilisers indicate a design preference for fighter-like agility since they aid horizontal stability during manoeuvres, especially in extreme flight regimes. However, they also limit the extent to which an aircraft’s radar signature can be reduced, especially against low-frequency ‘anti-stealth’ type radars. Because of this, and the fact that some argue the agility of modern missiles make dogfighting redundant in future air combat, most concept art from US defence companies in recent years have not included vertical stabilisers, presumably to aid stealth against advanced and future radar systems.


The Typhoon programme cost the UK around £17 billion in development and acquisition costs for 160 aircraft. Tempest promises to be an even more ambitious undertaking, despite the progress made in various critical technologies in both the defence and civilian sectors since the 1980s when Typhoon was conceived. Assuming no major uplift in defence spending, the RAF and MoD will have to find significant funding within the equipment programme for the Tempest project if it is to have any hope of producing a real combat aircraft. Unfortunately, that is likely to be very difficult without adjusting the number of F-35s that the UK will eventually buy from the US, given that the continued public commitment to 138 of the stealth fighters will not be delivered on current funding timelines until the late 2030s at the earliest. Based on current defence spending assumptions, it is unlikely that the MoD will be able to adequately fund the testing and procurement phases of the Tempest while buying significant numbers of F-35s and maintaining an increasingly aging core Typhoon force as the latter approaches its eventual out of service date of approximately 2040. Something will eventually have to give.


https://rusi.org/publication/rusi-defen ... er-tempest

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 16 Jul 2018, 21:50
by milosh
Spaced engines, long central weapon bay/bays, tail sting with some sensor (maybe radar), and maybe some radar in wings? Pak-Faski :D

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 17 Jul 2018, 01:47
by Corsair1963
[quote="talkitron"]Here is an article saying budget realities surrounding the Tempest program will reduce the UK F-35 buy in the 2030's. The author speculates on the military features of the shape of the air frame.


Wild speculation nothing more. Especially, consider this so called Tempest is nothing but a "concept" at this stage.....

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 17 Jul 2018, 09:38
by citanon
Is it just me, or is this thing what the X32 would have looked like had the designers not been determined to make it ugly as sin:

Image

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 17 Jul 2018, 10:02
by Corsair1963
zhangmdev wrote:Tempest is a nice name. The concept reminds me of Monica.





Honestly, appear to similar to the existing F-35....

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 17 Jul 2018, 11:58
by zhangmdev
X-32 with twin DSI, and engines at the right places.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 17 Jul 2018, 14:56
by vilters
Even from this angle, I can clearly see a pretty basic aerodynamic error.
I hope they discover it before moving on.

Tip :
Look at a F-22 or an F-35 from a side view.
Then imagine this from a side view.
From the air intakes forward.
=> That whole nose section should be tilted DOWNwards around 2.5 to 3°, or the nose will always be at an angle of attack during level flight. => Drag.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 17 Jul 2018, 16:34
by SpudmanWP
So.. Anyone got any good "Tempest in a Teapot" jokes?

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 21:42
by barrelnut


Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 23:39
by count_to_10
vilters wrote:Even from this angle, I can clearly see a pretty basic aerodynamic error.
I hope they discover it before moving on.

Tip :
Look at a F-22 or an F-35 from a side view.
Then imagine this from a side view.
From the air intakes forward.
=> That whole nose section should be tilted DOWNwards around 2.5 to 3°, or the nose will always be at an angle of attack during level flight. => Drag.

That’s also lift. But there is a point there: the nose should be tilted down so that it doesn’t contribute to positive stability.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 19 Jul 2018, 23:17
by mixelflick
citanon wrote:Is it just me, or is this thing what the X32 would have looked like had the designers not been determined to make it ugly as sin:

Image


From this angle, it doesn't look half bad.

From the front or side, it looked like a pregnant guppy. Ugly as sin, as you say... :)

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 20 Jul 2018, 01:08
by madrat
Could have look like a droopy-faced beagle
Image

Although it looked cool at some angles, Boeing was wise at least to avoid a canard.
Image

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 20 Jul 2018, 13:22
by mixelflick
The Mig I.44 was a beautiful machine IMO...

Was never going to be stealthy, but I loved the layout. Spoke to speed, speed and more speed LOL. No sure how "supermaneuverable" it would have been, but it looks like a rocket ship IMO. Almost like a cross between the Typhoon and F-22....

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 21 Jul 2018, 00:48
by marsavian

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 21 Jul 2018, 16:40
by jetblast16
Tempest: Inside The Fighter Jet Of The Future | Forces TV


Hahaha...yeah, right. I like how they have all these hand gestures to control the displays. Liked to see how that would work when pulling Gs.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 21 Jul 2018, 17:00
by zero-one
jetblast16 wrote:
Hahaha...yeah, right. I like how they have all these hand gestures to control the displays. Liked to see how that would work when pulling Gs.


The thing has a cranked delta wing design with no tail and no canards. It looks similar to the X-32's design which did not meet the US Navy's requirements for maneuverability which is why they redesigned it to a conventional tail and wing.

The two X-32 aircraft featured a delta wing design. However, eight months into construction of the concept demonstrator aircraft, the JSF's maneuverability and payload requirements were refined at the request of the Navy and Boeing's delta wing design fell short of the new targets. Engineers altered the aircraft's design with a conventional canted twin tail (narrowly beating out a Pelikan tail) that reduced weight and improved agility, but it was too late to change the aircraft. It was judged that they would be sufficient to demonstrate Boeing's technology.


The twin tails are also noticeably smaller, so unless any of our experts say otherwise, I think the maneuvering requirements for the thing will be quite modest. They may not be expecting to pull a lot of Gs in this thing.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 23 Jul 2018, 22:17
by count_to_10
jetblast16 wrote:
Tempest: Inside The Fighter Jet Of The Future | Forces TV


Hahaha...yeah, right. I like how they have all these hand gestures to control the displays. Liked to see how that would work when pulling Gs.

You have to be really confident that the helmet will never glitch to get rid of all cockpit displays. Particularly when they can weigh as little as a few pounds.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 23 Jul 2018, 23:03
by SpudmanWP
jetblast16 wrote: Liked to see how that would work when pulling Gs.

Voice control, in English, with a Texas accent. :roll:

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2018, 08:46
by zero-one
count_to_10 wrote:You have to be really confident that the helmet will never glitch to get rid of all cockpit displays. Particularly when they can weigh as little as a few pounds.



Well that seems unfair if we have absolute confidence in the F-35's HMD. I see no reason for the Tempest to have this kind of issue.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 25 Jul 2018, 01:31
by jetblast16


They should have called this thing Spitfire II

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 25 Jul 2018, 06:01
by Corsair1963
Nothing wrong with Tempest.... :twisted:

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 25 Jul 2018, 08:45
by marsavian
For those who don't know Tempest was a UK WWII fighter/bomber plane derived from the Hawker Typhoon so that's why history is repeating itself in this Typhoon-Tempest sequel naming.

Image

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawker_Tempest

The Hawker Tempest is a British fighter aircraft primarily used by the Royal Air Force (RAF) in the Second World War. The Tempest, originally known as the Typhoon II, was an improved derivative of the Hawker Typhoon, intended to address the Typhoon's unexpected fall-off of performance at high altitude by replacing its wing with a thinner laminar flow design. Having diverged considerably from the Typhoon, it was chosen to rename the aircraft Tempest. The Tempest emerged as one of the most powerful fighters of World War II and was the fastest single-engine propeller-driven aircraft of the war at low altitude.

Upon entering service in 1944, the Tempest was used as a low-level interceptor, particularly against the V-1 flying bomb threat, and as a ground attack platform, in which it supported major events such as Operation Market Garden. Later, it successfully targeted the rail infrastructure in Germany and Luftwaffe aircraft on the ground, as well as countering such attacks by German fighters. The Tempest was effective in the low-level interception role, including against newly developed jet-propelled aircraft such as the Messerschmitt Me 262.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 25 Jul 2018, 09:45
by zero-one
jetblast16 wrote:
They should have called this thing Spitfire II


I wonder if this would hurt the Luftwaffe. The Spitfire was responsible for a lot of their airmen's deaths. And is largely credited with winning the Battle of Britain (Although the Huricane had more kills)

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 25 Jul 2018, 14:56
by jetblast16
I wonder if this would hurt the Luftwaffe.
Upon entering service in 1944, the Tempest was used as a low-level interceptor, particularly against the V-1 flying bomb threat, and as a ground attack platform, in which it supported major events such as Operation Market Garden. Later, it successfully targeted the rail infrastructure in Germany and Luftwaffe aircraft on the ground, as well as countering such attacks by German fighters. The Tempest was effective in the low-level interception role, including against newly developed jet-propelled aircraft such as the Messerschmitt Me 262.


Six of one, half a dozen of the other? I like Spitfire II; stealthy, possibly tail-less, super-cruiser, heading out over the North Atlantic, spittin' fire (rays of invisible heat aka laser energy) 8)

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 25 Jul 2018, 21:57
by sprstdlyscottsmn
It could only be Spitfire II if it was also jaw-droppingly beautiful to see and hear.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 25 Jul 2018, 22:13
by marsavian
The Luftwaffe is not going to be buying it so the UK can name it anything it wants. You can see a business model method to this madness really as there are a lot of Typhoon customers in the Middle East who would like a stealthy successor without the Israelis vetoing it through their US connections if it was a US aircraft. As its innards and weapons would be derived from the last Typhoons there would also be synergy there from the investment these customers have already made. Without Franco/German requirements holding back development they can get this sorted at a time of their choosing to seamlessly take over for Typhoon replacements in the 2035+ time frame.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 31 Jul 2018, 18:03
by basher54321
Jim Smith had significant technical roles in the development of the UK’s leading military aviation programmes. From ASRAAM and Nimrod, to the JSF and Eurofighter Typhoon. We asked his opinion on what we can learn from looking at Britain’s next potential fighter, Project Tempest.


https://hushkit.net/2018/07/19/project- ... l-liaison/

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 01 Aug 2018, 01:22
by jetblast16
Kinda makes you wonder where the US is at on its 6th gen fighter programmes, PCA or whatever you like to call it.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 01 Aug 2018, 01:37
by Corsair1963
jetblast16 wrote:Kinda makes you wonder where the US is at on its 6th gen fighter programmes, PCA or whatever you like to call it.



From all reports still in the early concept stages. Yet, considering on how little we really know about the F-35 and what it's ultimately capable of. It should hardly be a surprise....


Honestly, to me the Tempest looks closer to a 5.5 Generation Fighter than a true 6th Generation Fighter. (i.e. leap) Yet, after the Typhoon and Rafale. It's hard to imagine the UK would repeat the same mistake again???

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 01 Aug 2018, 02:33
by jetblast16
It's very early in the programme. Admittedly, the cockpit concept was pretty impressive, minus some concerns about the hand gestures required to interact with it. Overall, I found the actual aircraft concept vehicle to be fairly unimpressive. They did state in one of the videos that the 'Tempest' or whatever they decide to call/label it in the future could look much different than what was presented at the show. At any rate, the US needs to start finalizing some concepts to pursue if they have any hope of fielding a system (possibly systems) in the next 20 years or so to replace the Raptor, Super Hornet, etc.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 01 Aug 2018, 16:57
by marsavian
As a collective group of aviation enthusiasts we should not get sucked up to manufacturers claims of post 5th generation aircraft until everyone agrees what 6th generation aircraft really are. Nothing I have seen proposed looks revolutionary compared to the F-35 which
is the quintessential mass produced 5th generation fighter. It really does have to have quantum leaps in capability to justify a next generation moniker.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 26 Sep 2019, 22:03
by marsavian
MBDA unveils Team Tempest weapon system concepts

https://www.janes.com/article/91538/mbd ... m-concepts

Working with Leonardo and BAE Systems, MBDA is advancing a hard-kill defensive aid system (HK-DAS) concept as part of the platform's integrated defensive system. Designed to track, target, and intercept incoming missiles, HK-DAS is a compact < 1 m length, 10 kg-class imaging infrared (IIR) hit-to-kill missile, released from launchers integrated within the platform airframe. In keeping with its commonality, modularity, and reuse principle, the company is also considering, as part of the same conceptual family, a scalable Ground Attack Micromissile in the same form factor, but furnished with a small explosive payload to enable a close-air support role from the platform.


Image

Team Tempest WVRAAM weapons concepts – foreground: Increased Calibre WVRAAM; behind: WVRAAM twin pack Source: MBDA

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 27 Sep 2019, 16:30
by mixelflick
marsavian wrote:As a collective group of aviation enthusiasts we should not get sucked up to manufacturers claims of post 5th generation aircraft until everyone agrees what 6th generation aircraft really are. Nothing I have seen proposed looks revolutionary compared to the F-35 which
is the quintessential mass produced 5th generation fighter. It really does have to have quantum leaps in capability to justify a next generation moniker.


If you're talking about Tempest, I wholeheartedly agree.

If OTOH you're talking about PCA, I'm not sure the last part of your statement squares up. Last I heard, USAF was more concerned with getting something fielded timely, or at least a lot more timely than F-22/35 development. As such, it may or may not be a quantum leap. This is pure speculation, but I believe PCA is farther along in development than what's been made known. Something is driving the Russians to speed field the SU-57, and it looks like work on the Hunter drone is accelerating too.

Their prior statements about SU-35/SU-30SM's/Mig-29's being "adequate to meet the threat, SU-57 can wait etc.".... you don't hear them singing that song anymore. I suppose it may be a realization the F-35 is better than advertised too, but something is driving modernization efforts. If I was a betting man, I'd say Pratt or GE have made a breakthrough in engine technology and more importantly, made it affordable. If we lead in anything, it's engine tech. That might be what's causing them some concern..

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 27 Sep 2019, 17:17
by marsavian
Sixth generation will be hypersonic aircraft, a true quantum leap, ushered in hopefully with the SR-72. Any other future stealth highly networked aircraft will still be 5th generation no matter how much marketing BS the manufacturers spin.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 28 Sep 2019, 15:06
by mixelflick
marsavian wrote:Sixth generation will be hypersonic aircraft, a true quantum leap, ushered in hopefully with the SR-72. Any other future stealth highly networked aircraft will still be 5th generation no matter how much marketing BS the manufacturers spin.


Interesting criteria. So if PCA isn't hypersonic but has other ground breaking technology (in sensors, engines or weapons), you wouldn't say it qualifies as "6th gen"?

That wouldn't be my criteria, but I respect yours. I think the odds PCA will be hyper-sonic are incredibly low, especially if the Air Force wants it anytime soon. It seems we're having a hard enough time getting a hypersonic missile/weapon, nevermind manned aircraft. The SR-72 is rumored to be hypersonic, but translating that into a new airframe with an air dominance mission seems unlikely. And expensive as hell, leading to low production numbers and a high per unit cost.

But perhaps you're right. I guess time will tell.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 28 Sep 2019, 17:36
by marsavian
The SR-72 is rumored to be hypersonic, but translating that into a new airframe with an air dominance mission seems unlikely.


Hypersonic aircraft will not only fly fast but high as well. Look at all the fits SR-71 gave aircraft trying to intercept it now imagine something going nearly twice as fast. As a bomber it will have unique features in how far it can release ordinance from an internal bay way beyond any delivery platform now. Think of it as a possible replacement for the B-1A which never got built.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 28 Sep 2019, 19:11
by inst
marsavian wrote:Sixth generation will be hypersonic aircraft, a true quantum leap, ushered in hopefully with the SR-72. Any other future stealth highly networked aircraft will still be 5th generation no matter how much marketing BS the manufacturers spin.


It is possible that "6th generation" systems in development will be closer to 5.5th generation. I'd define a generational leap as being able to soundly defeat the earliest variants of the previous generation. The F-15, for instance, was able to defeat all Soviet 3rd generation fighters as a member of the 4th generation, although the MiG-25 had tactics that could have defeated the F-15 or at least put it back to a 1:1 loss ratio (slow speed, fire first with the radar range, then zoom out of F-15 NEZ).

Systems that can do that would be, first, hypersonic aircraft that can outrun enemy missiles or render interception impossible. Another would be unmanned high-agility aircraft, which could bypass the G-limits of existing air-to-air missiles. A third would be hard-kill laser weapons, which could shoot down enemy air-to-air missiles as well as enemy aircraft. A true 6th generation aircraft would ideally combine the three capabilities.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 28 Sep 2019, 19:19
by inst
mixelflick wrote:
marsavian wrote:As a collective group of aviation enthusiasts we should not get sucked up to manufacturers claims of post 5th generation aircraft until everyone agrees what 6th generation aircraft really are. Nothing I have seen proposed looks revolutionary compared to the F-35 which
is the quintessential mass produced 5th generation fighter. It really does have to have quantum leaps in capability to justify a next generation moniker.


If you're talking about Tempest, I wholeheartedly agree.

If OTOH you're talking about PCA, I'm not sure the last part of your statement squares up. Last I heard, USAF was more concerned with getting something fielded timely, or at least a lot more timely than F-22/35 development. As such, it may or may not be a quantum leap. This is pure speculation, but I believe PCA is farther along in development than what's been made known. Something is driving the Russians to speed field the SU-57, and it looks like work on the Hunter drone is accelerating too.

Their prior statements about SU-35/SU-30SM's/Mig-29's being "adequate to meet the threat, SU-57 can wait etc.".... you don't hear them singing that song anymore. I suppose it may be a realization the F-35 is better than advertised too, but something is driving modernization efforts. If I was a betting man, I'd say Pratt or GE have made a breakthrough in engine technology and more importantly, made it affordable. If we lead in anything, it's engine tech. That might be what's causing them some concern..



There are significant rumors about the US having made a breakthrough in engine technology, with claims that classified US engine technologies are powering next-generation American missiles like AIM-260, MSDM, and SACM. This could quite possibly end up being applied to fighter aircraft, enabling hypersonics or at least getting the F-35 to kinematic par.

With the F135, we've seen the cutting edge of American engine technology circa 2007. What's the cutting edge in 2019?

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 29 Sep 2019, 02:18
by madrat
The experience over Syria woke up Russia. Now they are fearing Chinese progress and realize they are way behind even Europe

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 29 Sep 2019, 02:48
by inst
madrat wrote:The experience over Syria woke up Russia. Now they are fearing Chinese progress and realize they are way behind even Europe


I mean, the Russian end-game is to join the EU on their terms or have the EU just get subsumed by their Eurasian Union entity. In the West, we don't believe the Russians have any decent long-term strategic potential. But Russia as part of the EU or controlling the EU matches European economics to Russian military power and R&D power.

With that in consideration, they can't compete with the Chinese in the long-run unless they absorb the EU, and the Chinese are more likely to back the Russians at least in the short-run as a more autocratic / socialist EU removes the ideological conflict between Europe and China.

I'd see the renewed focus on the Su-57 as more of an attempt to keep their arms export industry alive and their military industry alive. With F-35s jetting around, who would want to buy an Su-35, unless the point is to take it apart as with the Chinese purchase? The Su-57, if the Russians can get it as cheap as they claim, is at least competitive with the F-35 even if it's likely the Su-57 can't compete on a parity basis with the F-35.

And, well, the Chinese believed that their J-11 (Flanker clones) and J-10s could, with appropriate tactics, counter American 5th generation aircraft, even if it had to rely on numerical superiority (see RAND study on crippling the F-22 by knocking out tankers). The Chinese quickly changed their tune the moment they had the J-20 running and began running war games against their J-11 and J-10 aircraft. Even with AEW&C support, the J-20s end up dominating J-11s and J-10s.

Something similar could have occurred with Russia; when you don't have stealth, you'll play up your counterstealth equipment, and perhaps drink your own Kool-Aid. Once you have stealth and test your own 5th gens vs your 4th gens, your tune rapidly changes.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 27 Nov 2019, 09:35
by hythelday
Airbus hoping to combine British Tempest jet project with Franco-German effort


Guillaume Faury, the chief executive of Airbus has called for a single European fighter jet programme, merging British and continental European efforts.


https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/airbus- ... an-effort/

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 27 Nov 2019, 10:14
by Corsair1963
hythelday wrote:Airbus hoping to combine British Tempest jet project with Franco-German effort


Guillaume Faury, the chief executive of Airbus has called for a single European fighter jet programme, merging British and continental European efforts.


https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/airbus- ... an-effort/



Very very unlikely.....UK has no interest in playing second fiddle to France and/or Germany. Especially, the former... :?

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 27 Nov 2019, 10:55
by Corsair1963
marsavian wrote:As a collective group of aviation enthusiasts we should not get sucked up to manufacturers claims of post 5th generation aircraft until everyone agrees what 6th generation aircraft really are. Nothing I have seen proposed looks revolutionary compared to the F-35 which
is the quintessential mass produced 5th generation fighter. It really does have to have quantum leaps in capability to justify a next generation moniker.



Actually, I think the US is very wise to take it's time with the PCA/NGAD. As we haven't figured out half of what the F-35 can really do. Let alone the Generation (6th) beyond that....

This while Europe appears to be making the same mistake they did with both the Rafale and Typhoon. That is instead of developing them as 5th Generation Fighters. They took a small leap (less risky) and developed the two aforementioned as "4.5 Generation Fighters". Yet, by time they arrived the American 5th Generation F-22 and F-35 where hot on their heels....

Maybe it's just me but the FCAS and Tempest sure look more like a 5.5 Generation Fighter. Than a big leap 6th Generation one....

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 28 Nov 2019, 08:22
by wil59
Corsair1963 wrote:
marsavian wrote:As a collective group of aviation enthusiasts we should not get sucked up to manufacturers claims of post 5th generation aircraft until everyone agrees what 6th generation aircraft really are. Nothing I have seen proposed looks revolutionary compared to the F-35 which
is the quintessential mass produced 5th generation fighter. It really does have to have quantum leaps in capability to justify a next generation moniker.



Actually, I think the US is very wise to take it's time with the PCA/NGAD. As we haven't figured out half of what the F-35 can really do. Let alone the Generation (6th) beyond that....

This while Europe appears to be making the same mistake they did with both the Rafale and Typhoon. That is instead of developing them as 5th Generation Fighters. They took a small leap (less risky) and developed the two aforementioned as "4.5 Generation Fighters". Yet, by time they arrived the American 5th Generation F-22 and F-35 where hot on their heels....

Maybe it's just me but the FCAS and Tempest sure look more like a 5.5 Generation Fighter. Than a big leap 6th Generation one....
.
An error the 4.5 generation!?. Tell me when the 5 generations have participated in an armed conflict in the last 15 years?

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 28 Nov 2019, 10:14
by southernphantom
wil59 wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:
marsavian wrote:As a collective group of aviation enthusiasts we should not get sucked up to manufacturers claims of post 5th generation aircraft until everyone agrees what 6th generation aircraft really are. Nothing I have seen proposed looks revolutionary compared to the F-35 which
is the quintessential mass produced 5th generation fighter. It really does have to have quantum leaps in capability to justify a next generation moniker.



Actually, I think the US is very wise to take it's time with the PCA/NGAD. As we haven't figured out half of what the F-35 can really do. Let alone the Generation (6th) beyond that....

This while Europe appears to be making the same mistake they did with both the Rafale and Typhoon. That is instead of developing them as 5th Generation Fighters. They took a small leap (less risky) and developed the two aforementioned as "4.5 Generation Fighters". Yet, by time they arrived the American 5th Generation F-22 and F-35 where hot on their heels....

Maybe it's just me but the FCAS and Tempest sure look more like a 5.5 Generation Fighter. Than a big leap 6th Generation one....
.
An error the 4.5 generation!?. Tell me when the 5 generations have participated in an armed conflict in the last 15 years?


Seriously (Syriasly)?

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 28 Nov 2019, 11:14
by wil59
wil59 wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:
marsavian wrote:As a collective group of aviation enthusiasts we should not get sucked up to manufacturers claims of post 5th generation aircraft until everyone agrees what 6th generation aircraft really are. Nothing I have seen proposed looks revolutionary compared to the F-35 which
is the quintessential mass produced 5th generation fighter. It really does have to have quantum leaps in capability to justify a next generation moniker.



Actually, I think the US is very wise to take it's time with the PCA/NGAD. As we haven't figured out half of what the F-35 can really do. Let alone the Generation (6th) beyond that....

This while Europe appears to be making the same mistake they did with both the Rafale and Typhoon. That is instead of developing them as 5th Generation Fighters. They took a small leap (less risky) and developed the two aforementioned as "4.5 Generation Fighters". Yet, by time they arrived the American 5th Generation F-22 and F-35 where hot on their heels....

Maybe it's just me but the FCAS and Tempest sure look more like a 5.5 Generation Fighter. Than a big leap 6th Generation one....
.
An error the 4.5 generation!?. Tell me when the 5 generations have participated in an armed conflict in the last 15 years?
.
Apart from bombardment with a B2 ?! A bombardment with a 4 th generation aircraft would have given the same results.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 28 Nov 2019, 11:22
by wil59
wil59 wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:
marsavian wrote:As a collective group of aviation enthusiasts we should not get sucked up to manufacturers claims of post 5th generation aircraft until everyone agrees what 6th generation aircraft really are. Nothing I have seen proposed looks revolutionary compared to the F-35 which
is the quintessential mass produced 5th generation fighter. It really does have to have quantum leaps in capability to justify a next generation moniker.



Actually, I think the US is very wise to take it's time with the PCA/NGAD. As we haven't figured out half of what the F-35 can really do. Let alone the Generation (6th) beyond that....

This while Europe appears to be making the same mistake they did with both the Rafale and Typhoon. That is instead of developing them as 5th Generation Fighters. They took a small leap (less risky) and developed the two aforementioned as "4.5 Generation Fighters". Yet, by time they arrived the American 5th Generation F-22 and F-35 where hot on their heels....

Maybe it's just me but the FCAS and Tempest sure look more like a 5.5 Generation Fighter. Than a big leap 6th Generation one....
.
An error the 4.5 generation!?. Tell me when the 5 generations have participated in an armed conflict in the last 15 years?

What I mean is that the 5th generation will be relevant when the Russian and China have a consequent 5th generation hunt. It's not the pak-fa RCS and the j20, I really doubt their claims on their furtives.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 28 Nov 2019, 15:09
by madrat
J-20 is not a low RCS aircraft, it is true stealth. The LRIP J-20 has exceptional detail. The prototypes did not. It would be silly to under-estimate the production J-20.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 28 Nov 2019, 17:00
by mixelflick
INST

"The Chinese quickly changed their tune the moment they had the J-20 running and began running war games against their J-11 and J-10 aircraft. Even with AEW&C support, the J-20s end up dominating J-11s and J-10s..."

And we know this, how??

Did the Chinese offer up this information, the same way we did when the F-35 achieved a 20:1 kill ratio at Red Flag?? If so, this would be a major departure in what the Chinese share about their weapons systems...

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 02 Dec 2019, 13:07
by wil59
mixelflick wrote:INST

"The Chinese quickly changed their tune the moment they had the J-20 running and began running war games against their J-11 and J-10 aircraft. Even with AEW&C support, the J-20s end up dominating J-11s and J-10s..."

And we know this, how??

Did the Chinese offer up this information, the same way we did when the F-35 achieved a 20:1 kill ratio at Red Flag?? If so, this would be a major departure in what the Chinese share about their weapons systems...

hum, a J-10 or a J-11 are not really capable planes like the super hornet or rafale and in embedded electronics they must be very far from the hornet or rafale capabilities.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 03 Dec 2019, 04:07
by Corsair1963
wil59 wrote:An error the 4.5 generation!?. Tell me when the 5 generations have participated in an armed conflict in the last 15 years?



Tell me how many 4.5 Generation Fighters (Typhoon and Rafale) are going to be exported in the coming decade... :doh:

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 03 Dec 2019, 13:17
by wil59
Corsair1963 wrote:
wil59 wrote:An error the 4.5 generation!?. Tell me when the 5 generations have participated in an armed conflict in the last 15 years?



Tell me how many 4.5 Generation Fighters (Typhoon and Rafale) are going to be exported in the coming decade... :doh:

Well, except for the F-35 which is exporting. Mainly for political reasons and also to be able to benefit from the protection of the United States via NATO, I do not believe that the 4.5 generations are a mistake, they are cheaper to use and perfectly blend the work that is required. I have never heard a Rafale pilot complain, but rather the opposite, saying that it is a reliable machine that perfectly executes what is required. Stealth is good for some missions but it is possible to do otherwise with a non-stealth aircraft and I don't think they have s-400s on every street corner. In short, everyone's opinion. The French manufacturing policy is not dark if we do not control new technologies but to do it little by little. Look at the problems that the F-35 has encountered during all these years since its design and it is not yet finished! Sorry if my honesty can drive you crazy here, I mean, he has a lot of F-35 boy fans here. But I repeat, apart from the F-35, which 5th generation aircraft was exported?
.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 03 Dec 2019, 13:58
by wil59
wil59 wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:
wil59 wrote:An error the 4.5 generation!?. Tell me when the 5 generations have participated in an armed conflict in the last 15 years?



Tell me how many 4.5 Generation Fighters (Typhoon and Rafale) are going to be exported in the coming decade... :doh:

Well, except for the F-35 which is exporting. Mainly for political reasons and also to be able to benefit from the protection of the United States via NATO, I do not believe that the 4.5 generations are a mistake, they are cheaper to use and perfectly blend the work that is required. I have never heard a Rafale pilot complain, but rather the opposite, saying that it is a reliable machine that perfectly executes what is required. Stealth is good for some missions but it is possible to do otherwise with a non-stealth aircraft and I don't think they have s-400s on every street corner. In short, everyone's opinion. The French manufacturing policy is not dark if we do not control new technologies but to do it little by little. Look at the problems that the F-35 has encountered during all these years since its design and it is not yet finished! Sorry if my honesty can drive you crazy here, I mean, he has a lot of F-35 boy fans here. But I repeat, apart from the F-35, which 5th generation aircraft was exported?
.

I would add that the United States was the only country 30/40 years ago to invest in stealth research and design a stealth aircraft. No other country can afford it, the United States defence budget was higher than all other countries combined. The other countries France, England etc. could not follow the path of the United States. Apart from China, which has been investing heavily in the 5th generation for 10/15 years now, it is normal since China has considerably increased its defence budget over the past 10/15 years, other countries cannot keep up with this. This is why the 5ięme generation project is only now starting for France and England, which have the technical capacity to do so for a long time now, to see the Taranis or the Neuron. It was all about money, that's all! And since they had invested in the 4.5 generations they didn't have the attention to reinvest in the 5 consecutive generations.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 03 Dec 2019, 16:50
by vilters
No country,
I WILL write that again:

NO country (or any combination of countries in Europe) has the funds to properly R&D a true stealth airframe/engine combination.

We missed that boat completely.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 03 Dec 2019, 16:58
by botsing
vilters wrote:NO country (or any combination of countries in Europe) is willing to spend the funds to properly R&D a true stealth airframe/engine combination..

FTFY

EU and USA economy has always been very close to each other.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 03 Dec 2019, 17:19
by wil59
vilters wrote:No country,
I WILL write that again:

NO country (or any combination of countries in Europe) has the funds to properly R&D a true stealth airframe/engine combination.

We missed that boat completely.

Really! Really! So tell me why France and England launched the 5/6th generation program with their respective partners! You are the Tempest program, and SCAF, I reassure you that they are not cars! but beautiful and well a 5 or 6 th generation fighter aircraft program. So you're going to say they can't do it, in short, don't answer my post anymore you'll do me a favor tdc.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 03 Dec 2019, 17:36
by wrightwing
wil59 wrote:
vilters wrote:No country,
I WILL write that again:

NO country (or any combination of countries in Europe) has the funds to properly R&D a true stealth airframe/engine combination.

We missed that boat completely.

Really! Really! So tell me why France and England launched the 5/6th generation program with their respective partners! You are the Tempest program, and SCAF, I reassure you that they are not cars! but beautiful and well a 5 or 6 th generation fighter aircraft program. So you're going to say they can't do it, in short, don't answer my post anymore you'll do me a favor tdc.

I thought the Rafale and Typhoon were good enough. Which is it? Even EU nations know that with the US selling F-35s, and China/Russia at some point selling Su-57, J-20, and J-31s, along with myriad SAM systems, that 4th gen jets have a limited shelf life. What remains to be seen, is if they can avoid political clusterf@$me, and build their 5th generation jets in a timely and affordable manner.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 03 Dec 2019, 20:16
by wil59
wrightwing wrote:
wil59 wrote:
vilters wrote:No country,
I WILL write that again:

NO country (or any combination of countries in Europe) has the funds to properly R&D a true stealth airframe/engine combination.

We missed that boat completely.

Really! Really! So tell me why France and England launched the 5/6th generation program with their respective partners! You are the Tempest program, and SCAF, I reassure you that they are not cars! but beautiful and well a 5 or 6 th generation fighter aircraft program. So you're going to say they can't do it, in short, don't answer my post anymore you'll do me a favor tdc.

I thought the Rafale and Typhoon were good enough. Which is it? Even EU nations know that with the US selling F-35s, and China/Russia at some point selling Su-57, J-20, and J-31s, along with myriad SAM systems, that 4th gen jets have a limited shelf life. What remains to be seen, is if they can avoid political clusterf@$me, and build their 5th generation jets in a timely and affordable manner.

Well at the present time the Rafale is still current and efficient and will be even more so with the F4 standard in 2022, I invite you to consult the F4 specificities on connectivity, networking, etc. This evolution of the French aircraft should allow it to bring it fully into the network battle with new satellite and intra-patrol links, communication server, software radio. New functions will also be developed to improve aircraft capabilities such as sensor and radar evolution, frontal sector optronics (IRST), helmet sight capabilities and new weapons will be integrated such as the Mica NG air-to-air missile and the 1000 kg modular air-to-ground weaponry.

Finally, in terms of availability, Dassault works within the framework of an MCO (Maintenance in Operational Condition) which will be more verticalized under the authority of the aircraft manufacturer. F4 will include a new Prognosis and Diagnostic Assistance System introducing predictive maintenance capabilities. Other maintenance optimizations are also planned, including solutions based on Big Data and artificial intelligence. Finally, the Rafale will be equipped with a new engine control unit, and validation of the F4 standard is planned for 2024, with some functions available from 2022. The response to the F-35:

There was one important step missing to counter Lockheed-Martin's F-35, that of connectivity. It will soon be done with the "F4". With increased computing capacity, the aircraft will be able to communicate with drones, ground armoured vehicles and surface vessels, in order to react faster and with greater accuracy. The European response is being put in place, with aircraft that will be able to operate in "big data" mode while remaining manageable and efficient at all levels.

The mission for the French aircraft manufacturer: to deliver it to the armed forces by 2023 for a contract worth nearly two billion euros. As the Minister pointed out, some thirty other F4 Rafales were ordered by the State for delivery between 2027 and 2030. All of them represent the first embryo of the SCAF (air combat system of the future), a European programme under French leadership, the Rafale F4 will fly with drones and the SCAF and all this in a hyperconnectivity, so the burst will still have its place in 2030 and therefore is certainly not a mistake, saying that the Rafale is outdated is really a joke.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 04 Dec 2019, 00:19
by hb_pencil
wil59 wrote:
vilters wrote:No country,
I WILL write that again:

NO country (or any combination of countries in Europe) has the funds to properly R&D a true stealth airframe/engine combination.

We missed that boat completely.

Really! Really! So tell me why France and England launched the 5/6th generation program with their respective partners! You are the Tempest program, and SCAF, I reassure you that they are not cars! but beautiful and well a 5 or 6 th generation fighter aircraft program. So you're going to say they can't do it, in short, don't answer my post anymore you'll do me a favor tdc.


Because both underestimate the true cost of these systems. I think the only country that is truly willing to expend the capital to develop a 5th Gen in Europe alone is Germany, where its largely seen as an industrial development investment rather than a military one. However there are real questions whether they will actually follow through on that objective. A big issue is the ancillary capabilities that go around a fighter, which, frankly, only the United States has invested in. The FCAS says they intend to do that, but in spite of clear limitations in critical capabilities, they've made a number of moves that will just cost more and increase the difficulty to themselves.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 04 Dec 2019, 04:44
by XanderCrews
wil59 wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:
marsavian wrote:As a collective group of aviation enthusiasts we should not get sucked up to manufacturers claims of post 5th generation aircraft until everyone agrees what 6th generation aircraft really are. Nothing I have seen proposed looks revolutionary compared to the F-35 which
is the quintessential mass produced 5th generation fighter. It really does have to have quantum leaps in capability to justify a next generation moniker.



Actually, I think the US is very wise to take it's time with the PCA/NGAD. As we haven't figured out half of what the F-35 can really do. Let alone the Generation (6th) beyond that....

This while Europe appears to be making the same mistake they did with both the Rafale and Typhoon. That is instead of developing them as 5th Generation Fighters. They took a small leap (less risky) and developed the two aforementioned as "4.5 Generation Fighters". Yet, by time they arrived the American 5th Generation F-22 and F-35 where hot on their heels....

Maybe it's just me but the FCAS and Tempest sure look more like a 5.5 Generation Fighter. Than a big leap 6th Generation one....
.
An error the 4.5 generation!?. Tell me when the 5 generations have participated in an armed conflict in the last 15 years?



Image

I eagerly await your goal post moving...

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 04 Dec 2019, 04:57
by XanderCrews
wil59 wrote:Apart from bombardment with a B2 ?! A bombardment with a 4 th generation aircraft would have given the same results.


pure ignorance.

wil59 wrote: Look at the problems that the F-35 has encountered during all these years since its design and it is not yet finished! Sorry if my honesty can drive you crazy here, I mean, he has a lot of F-35 boy fans here. But I repeat, apart from the F-35, which 5th generation aircraft was exported?
.


Its not your "honesty" its your glib and unserious fanboy nature. You don't get to whine about fanboyism while chugging Rafale kool aide on behalf of all of Europe! LOL

The rafale has been "in progress" since its inception. the F4 your touting is yet another iteration of the continually "evolving design" but don't worry one day they will get it "right" and it still won't be a 5th generation fighter.

wil59 wrote:his is why the 5ięme generation project is only now starting for France and England, which have the technical capacity to do so for a long time now, to see the Taranis or the Neuron. It was all about money, that's all! And since they had invested in the 4.5 generations they didn't have the attention to reinvest in the 5 consecutive generations.


They invested all that time and money into those great and 4.5 gen programs that left them too poor to keep up in the 21st century? why Wil59 your countering your own argument. :mrgreen:

Taranis and Neuron are hardly the equivalents of engineering, building, fielding and taking to war a 5th generation manned fighter. Russia just got to learn the hard way how expensive and difficult and the massive support and research required. The technical seeds must be planted years ahead and again it took years and years to field the European 4.5 gen fighters as you note, time and money they can't get back. and theyre still working on them. Its was absurd how long it took to get the Rafale and the Typhoon into initial service and then gobs of time and ever more money to get them to be the acceptable level they are now. to the point where even you agree its sapped them for other programs until now LOL not bad for programs that got started in the early 1980s.

And now theyre going to out do the F-35 and F-22? Do I get to watch that trillion dollars pay off around 2068 or 2075? :doh: and theyll field 100 of them and the 101st model will be Tempest Mk6-6B-F9a2 (block 67- flight IV) finally on par with the 2018 F-35...



wil59 wrote:
vilters wrote:No country,
I WILL write that again:

NO country (or any combination of countries in Europe) has the funds to properly R&D a true stealth airframe/engine combination.

We missed that boat completely.

Really! Really! So tell me why France and England launched the 5/6th generation program with their respective partners! You are the Tempest program, and SCAF, I reassure you that they are not cars! but beautiful and well a 5 or 6 th generation fighter aircraft program. So you're going to say they can't do it, in short, don't answer my post anymore you'll do me a favor tdc.



They can "launch" whatever program they want. In my lifetime Ive seen hundreds of programs "launched" with various results.

Image

They launched the EF Typhoon FEFA program in 1983. The decision to "launch" the Rafale was made back in 1982, and the prototype first flew in 1986, and only 15 short years later they finally got it into service and as of today still havn't built even 200 of them.


but thats ok because its only been 37 years...

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 04 Dec 2019, 05:24
by XanderCrews
I do not believe that the 4.5 generations are a mistake, they are cheaper to use


false.

and in order to make the Rafale feasible costwise, its required making it the only game in town for France--theyve retired or plan to retire all other types

I have never heard a Rafale pilot complain, but rather the opposite, saying that it is a reliable machine that perfectly executes what is required.


utterly irrelevant.

Stealth is good for some missions but it is possible to do otherwise with a non-stealth aircraft and I don't think they have s-400s on every street corner. In short, everyone's opinion.


Its like 5th generation can do what gen 4.5 can, but 4.5 can't do what 5th generation can do, so youre left coping about how thats ok somehow because Gen 4.5 is cheaper when its not. Typhoon alone is so insanely expensive and many Typhoon nations are also buying F-35-- and now seeking to replace it with the program you were just telling us they launched as soon as they could finally get away from the Gen 4.5 money sinks and seek to replace them LOL

France is sticking with Rafale because they have no other choice and the "national pride" you so readily display to everyone here in absence of actual facts and information

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 04 Dec 2019, 10:28
by wil59
XanderCrews wrote:
I do not believe that the 4.5 generations are a mistake, they are cheaper to use


false.

and in order to make the Rafale feasible costwise, its required making it the only game in town for France--theyve retired or plan to retire all other types

I have never heard a Rafale pilot complain, but rather the opposite, saying that it is a reliable machine that perfectly executes what is required.


utterly irrelevant.

Stealth is good for some missions but it is possible to do otherwise with a non-stealth aircraft and I don't think they have s-400s on every street corner. In short, everyone's opinion.


Its like 5th generation can do what gen 4.5 can, but 4.5 can't do what 5th generation can do, so youre left coping about how thats ok somehow because Gen 4.5 is cheaper when its not. Typhoon alone is so insanely expensive and many Typhoon nations are also buying F-35-- and now seeking to replace it with the program you were just telling us they launched as soon as they could finally get away from the Gen 4.5 money sinks and seek to replace them LOL

France is sticking with Rafale because they have no other choice and the "national pride" you so readily display to everyone here in absence of actual facts and information
. Um, look at the operating costs for a 5-generation aircraft and that of a 4-generation aircraft, maintenance for each flight hour, fuel cost for each flight hour, how many men for the maintenance of an aircraft vs. 4th generation! You will see, but you already knew that exploiting a 5th generation is much more expensive. And now calculated over 15/20 years?. In short, your arguments are false, as are all the points you have made against me. And I'm going to add that: Dassault Aviation would not embark on a 5th generation project if it could not do so both technically and financially. For the Rafale, the number of aircraft ordered has been a program that has been determined for many years, and when you look at the program, each version of the burst scrupulously respects the specifications pre-established since the beginning of the contract. Here again you are mistaken! I would like to know who you are as a specialist, how the F-35 behaves at supersonic speed and how long it can stay that way. How would the structures react if the F-35 had to maneuver at 1.4 mach to avoid a missile in front approach considering that it would have to take a large number of G to avoid it?

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 04 Dec 2019, 11:15
by Corsair1963
wil59 wrote:
France is sticking with Rafale because they have no other choice and the "national pride" you so readily display to everyone here in absence of actual facts and information
. Um, look at the operating costs for a 5-generation aircraft and that of a 4-generation aircraft, maintenance for each flight hour, fuel cost for each flight hour, how many men for the maintenance of an aircraft vs. 4th generation! You will see, but you already knew that exploiting a 5th generation is much more expensive. And now calculated over 15/20 years?. In short, your arguments are false, as are all the points you have made against me. And I'm going to add that: Dassault Aviation would not embark on a 5th generation project if it could not do so both technically and financially. For the Rafale, the number of aircraft ordered has been a program that has been determined for many years, and when you look at the program, each version of the burst scrupulously respects the specifications pre-established since the beginning of the contract. Here again you are mistaken! I would like to know who you are as a specialist, how the F-35 behaves at supersonic speed and how long it can stay that way. How would the structures react if the F-35 had to maneuver at 1.4 mach to avoid a missile in front approach considering that it would have to take a large number of G to avoid it?
[/quote]


Honestly, you need to cut back on the medication. Do you really understand what you just said???

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 04 Dec 2019, 11:40
by wil59
XanderCrews wrote:
I do not believe that the 4.5 generations are a mistake, they are cheaper to use


false.

and in order to make the Rafale feasible costwise, its required making it the only game in town for France--theyve retired or plan to retire all other types

I have never heard a Rafale pilot complain, but rather the opposite, saying that it is a reliable machine that perfectly executes what is required.


utterly irrelevant.

Stealth is good for some missions but it is possible to do otherwise with a non-stealth aircraft and I don't think they have s-400s on every street corner. In short, everyone's opinion.


Its like 5th generation can do what gen 4.5 can, but 4.5 can't do what 5th generation can do, so youre left coping about how thats ok somehow because Gen 4.5 is cheaper when its not. Typhoon alone is so insanely expensive and many Typhoon nations are also buying F-35-- and now seeking to replace it with the program you were just telling us they launched as soon as they could finally get away from the Gen 4.5 money sinks and seek to replace them LOL

France is sticking with Rafale because they have no other choice and the "national pride" you so readily display to everyone here in absence of actual facts and information
What a bunch of bullshit
I would like to know why the British have embarked on a 5th generation program since they now have the F-35? It puzzles me since apparently the F-35 is the ultimate aircraft! As for Dassault if he launches it in the program you can be sure that they will go to the end. Dassault's approach is different from Lockheed Martin, the United States will spend a lot of money to implement a program even if it is technically difficult to design it because it will then be able to solve the various problems later with the money that the state gives them. For Dassault it is different the French state will not invest if the project presents too much uncertainty !Look at the Rafale program the cost in research and development then the realization of the project has scrupulously followed the specifications. Dassault had to respect the amount he was prescribed. How many debates the United States Congress has had about exceeding the costs for the realization of the F-35 simply too much! The United States and France have a different approach to this, so what? Was the 5th generation relevant for the current use: yes. A natural enemy which is Russia and China. Was the 5th generation relevant for France at the moment: no. The difference is also geopolitical, make no mistake! That's why making the program now for France is not a mistake!

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 04 Dec 2019, 11:53
by wil59
Corsair1963 wrote:
wil59 wrote:
France is sticking with Rafale because they have no other choice and the "national pride" you so readily display to everyone here in absence of actual facts and information
. Um, look at the operating costs for a 5-generation aircraft and that of a 4-generation aircraft, maintenance for each flight hour, fuel cost for each flight hour, how many men for the maintenance of an aircraft vs. 4th generation! You will see, but you already knew that exploiting a 5th generation is much more expensive. And now calculated over 15/20 years?. In short, your arguments are false, as are all the points you have made against me. And I'm going to add that: Dassault Aviation would not embark on a 5th generation project if it could not do so both technically and financially. For the Rafale, the number of aircraft ordered has been a program that has been determined for many years, and when you look at the program, each version of the burst scrupulously respects the specifications pre-established since the beginning of the contract. Here again you are mistaken! I would like to know who you are as a specialist, how the F-35 behaves at supersonic speed and how long it can stay that way. How would the structures react if the F-35 had to maneuver at 1.4 mach to avoid a missile in front approach considering that it would have to take a large number of G to avoid it?



Honestly, you need to cut back on the medication. Do you really understand what you just said???[/quote]I understand myself, that's the main thing. You have your opinions, I have mine, say I'm taking medication without you saying why you didn't agree? Okay it's really easy, and without interest short...

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 04 Dec 2019, 12:22
by hornetfinn
wil59 wrote: Um, look at the operating costs for a 5-generation aircraft and that of a 4-generation aircraft, maintenance for each flight hour, fuel cost for each flight hour, how many men for the maintenance of an aircraft vs. 4th generation! You will see, but you already knew that exploiting a 5th generation is much more expensive.


Danish Air Force (and USAF) calculations disagree with that. F-35 was calculated to be cheaper to buy and operate than 4+ gen Super Hornet or especially Eurofighter Typhoon. USAF says that F-35 flight hour costs are not that much higher than in F-16C. F-22 is more expensive to operate than most 4th gen fighters, but it's also much larger and powerful aircraft than all current Western 4th gen fighters.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 04 Dec 2019, 13:16
by wil59
hornetfinn wrote:
wil59 wrote: Um, look at the operating costs for a 5-generation aircraft and that of a 4-generation aircraft, maintenance for each flight hour, fuel cost for each flight hour, how many men for the maintenance of an aircraft vs. 4th generation! You will see, but you already knew that exploiting a 5th generation is much more expensive.


Danish Air Force (and USAF) calculations disagree with that. F-35 was calculated to be cheaper to buy and operate than 4+ gen Super Hornet or especially Eurofighter Typhoon. USAF says that F-35 flight hour costs are not that much higher than in F-16C. F-22 is more expensive to operate than most 4th gen fighters, but it's also much larger and powerful aircraft than all current Western 4th gen fighters.

To be honest, I have seen on several publications that the flight time was much higher compared to an f-16 or even a Rafale ,so yes it is bigger too I obviously consider it but does it justify a cost of 30 to 40% more expensive? Here is an article I read recently on the operating cost of the F-35: We have been perceiving it for some time, the doctrine of the "all stealthy" with the F-22 and F-35 no longer appeals. This is due to the cost of purchases and flight hours that negatively affect staffing. However, it has become clear that the provision of enough aircraft to hold during external operations (OpEx) and to maintain an adequate number of aircraft to ensure the safety of the American territory, the training and education of new pilots is not compatible with a limited number of aircraft, even if they are stealthy. In Washington, the Congressional Budget Office presented the U.S. federal government with a number of ideas to reduce costs, including reducing the number of additional purchases of Lockheed-Martin F-35 "Lightning II", withdrawing the Rockwell B-1B Lancer bomber fleets and postponing the development of the Northrop Grumman B-21 stealth bomber.

Reduce the deficit:

As part of the report entitled "Options for Reducing the Deficit: 2019 to 2028", the CBO described dozens of reductions in discretionary spending, both within and outside the Department of Defense, that could reduce the gap between U.S. government revenues and expenditures. The agency's analysis was made in light of a federal deficit that is expected to average 5.1% of GDP between 2022 and 2025, losses that would cause the federal government's debt to rise to levels higher than those of the Second World War. The plan to cancel additional F-35 purchases between 2019 and 2028 is expected to save the Pentagon $13 billion, according to the CBO. Instead of buying the F-35, the US Air Force would buy 510 F-16 Fighting-Falcon with the standard "Block70/75" Viper and 250 F-15 "Advanced Eagle" and the Navy and Marine Corps would buy 394 F/A-18 "Advanced Super Hornets until 2028. These purchases would be made within the same timeframe as the one currently in place for the F-35s. The services would continue to operate the 429 F-35s already purchased.

"The advantage of this option is that it would reduce the cost of replacing older DoD fighter aircraft while providing the new F-15, F-16 and F/A-18 with improved capabilities (including modern radars, precision weapons and digital communications). These aircraft are capable of defeating most of the threats that the United States is likely to face in the coming years," says the CBO. "The F-35s already purchased would reinforce the stealth capability of the B-2 and F-22 bombers currently in service, which would improve the ability of the services to operate against adversaries equipped with sophisticated air defence systems." The risk of delaying the B-21:

However, the most significant change in the US Air Force's procurement plans could be to delay the development of the B-21 stealth bomber, which would save about $32 billion between 2020 and 2028, according to the CBO. The B-21 is expected to enter service between the mid- to late 2020s. One of the advantages of this approach would be that the B-21 program could take advantage of future aerospace technologies not yet available, says the CBO.

"Taking advantage of future technological developments could be particularly useful for weapon systems that are expected to be in use for several decades," the agency explains. "Even 10 years later, a new bomber would still be available before today's bombers have reached the end of their useful lives."

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 04 Dec 2019, 14:07
by wil59
XanderCrews wrote:
wil59 wrote:Apart from bombardment with a B2 ?! A bombardment with a 4 th generation aircraft would have given the same results.


pure ignorance.

wil59 wrote: Look at the problems that the F-35 has encountered during all these years since its design and it is not yet finished! Sorry if my honesty can drive you crazy here, I mean, he has a lot of F-35 boy fans here. But I repeat, apart from the F-35, which 5th generation aircraft was exported?
.


Its not your "honesty" its your glib and unserious fanboy nature. You don't get to whine about fanboyism while chugging Rafale kool aide on behalf of all of Europe! LOL

The rafale has been "in progress" since its inception. the F4 your touting is yet another iteration of the continually "evolving design" but don't worry one day they will get it "right" and it still won't be a 5th generation fighter.

wil59 wrote:his is why the 5ięme generation project is only now starting for France and England, which have the technical capacity to do so for a long time now, to see the Taranis or the Neuron. It was all about money, that's all! And since they had invested in the 4.5 generations they didn't have the attention to reinvest in the 5 consecutive generations.


They invested all that time and money into those great and 4.5 gen programs that left them too poor to keep up in the 21st century? why Wil59 your countering your own argument. :mrgreen:

Taranis and Neuron are hardly the equivalents of engineering, building, fielding and taking to war a 5th generation manned fighter. Russia just got to learn the hard way how expensive and difficult and the massive support and research required. The technical seeds must be planted years ahead and again it took years and years to field the European 4.5 gen fighters as you note, time and money they can't get back. and theyre still working on them. Its was absurd how long it took to get the Rafale and the Typhoon into initial service and then gobs of time and ever more money to get them to be the acceptable level they are now. to the point where even you agree its sapped them for other programs until now LOL not bad for programs that got started in the early 1980s.

And now theyre going to out do the F-35 and F-22? Do I get to watch that trillion dollars pay off around 2068 or 2075? :doh: and theyll field 100 of them and the 101st model will be Tempest Mk6-6B-F9a2 (block 67- flight IV) finally on par with the 2018 F-35...



wil59 wrote:
vilters wrote:No country,
I WILL write that again:

NO country (or any combination of countries in Europe) has the funds to properly R&D a true stealth airframe/engine combination.

We missed that boat completely.

Really! Really! So tell me why France and England launched the 5/6th generation program with their respective partners! You are the Tempest program, and SCAF, I reassure you that they are not cars! but beautiful and well a 5 or 6 th generation fighter aircraft program. So you're going to say they can't do it, in short, don't answer my post anymore you'll do me a favor tdc.



They can "launch" whatever program they want. In my lifetime Ive seen hundreds of programs "launched" with various results.

Image

They launched the EF Typhoon FEFA program in 1983. The decision to "launch" the Rafale was made back in 1982, and the prototype first flew in 1986, and only 15 short years later they finally got it into service and as of today still havn't built even 200 of them.


but thats ok because its only been 37 years...
.
With the development of the ScaF programme, concerns have emerged about the evolution and longevity of the Rafale fighter aircraft. To this end, the French Air Force and the aircraft manufacturer Dassault explained last weekend how to maintain multi-role combat aircraft in air and naval service until about 2070.

Speaking at the IQPC international conference on combat aircraft in Berlin, Major General Frédéric Parisot, Deputy Chief of Staff for Plans and Programmes of the French Air Force, said there would probably be four other upgrade phases for the Rafale programme. The platform goes beyond the latest F3R configuration currently being deployed and envisages that the Rafale will consider serving as a force multiplier alongside the new generation fighter (NFG) currently being developed with Germany and Spain as part of the broader Future Combat Air System (ScaF / Future Air Combat System (SCAF).

The Rafale's current F3R configuration includes major software and hardware upgrades, including the integration of the MBDA Meteor air-to-air missile out of visual range (BVRAAM) and the latest laser-guided version of the Sagem Armement Air-Sol Modular (AASM) model. ) modular air-to-ground precision weapon, Thales' AESA active electronic scanning radar (RNA) RBE2, Thales' TALIOS long-range airborne targeting pod (as well as the SNIPER pod) and the automatic ground collision avoidance system (Auto-GCAS), an improved "buddy-to-buddy" refuelling module and the Spectra electronic warfare system.

The "F4" standard is expected to operate between 2023 and 2030 and includes improvements to the AESA radar (RNA2), as well as the TALIOS and Reco NG recognition modules. Upgrading the aircraft's communications suite, improved pilot helmet displays, a new engine control unit and the ability to carry new weapons such as the Mica Next-Generation (NG) air-to-air missile and the 1,000 kg MSAA. In addition to software and hardware improvements, the F4 upgrade will include a satellite antenna, as well as a new prognostic and diagnostic aid system designed to introduce predictive maintenance capabilities.

Then there will be two other update programs, F5 and F6. If no information has been provided regarding these two future standards, they will be directly involved to enable the Rafale fighter aircraft to operate in conjunction with the ScaF program. And even if the Rafale did not go that far, its future remains secure!
https://youtu.be/zvzcF-aZVto 14 ooo kilometres and 10 hours of flight! This is real life.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 04 Dec 2019, 18:35
by XanderCrews
. Um, look at the operating costs for a 5-generation aircraft and that of a 4-generation aircraft, maintenance for each flight hour, fuel cost for each flight hour, how many men for the maintenance of an aircraft vs. 4th generation!


the first thing is that CFPH has no set international standard and there are various methods even within the US about how to calculate it. moreover, its constantly shifting as in the US legacy airplanes cost more to CPFH every year. Eventually those curves meet and head in opposite directions.


You will see, but you already knew that exploiting a 5th generation is much more expensive. And now calculated over 15/20 years?.



If we are talking F-35 I'm going to bet heavily on a lower CPFH for F-35 than Rafale based on the fleet size and the fact that its a single engine alone. theres aready twice as Many F-35s in the world the last 10 years than there is the Rafale the last 38 years. This matters because one of the key notions behind the F-35 is a huge fleet size, economical manufacturing by mass and commonality within types. This is one of the reasons why F-35 is favorably compared with F-16 and other legacy platforms ALREADY. The sheer prices Rafale fetches on the international market, namely india also casts serious suspicion on its subsequent operating costs.

The F-22 is of course far more expensive and one of the reasons behind that is the SMALL FLEET SIZE.

I dont think the Rafale is cheap when theres even smaller numbers produced, with a very small annual production rate as well. Of all the Eurocanards Rafale has the smallest fleet size by far. India is a fiasco and its struggled with sales in Europe.

Dassault Aviation would not embark on a 5th generation project if it could not do so both technically and financially.



with enough time and money I have no doubt, but given the sheer amount of time and expense it took to create an airplane thats routinely outdone by the Super Hornet, you'll have to forgive me for being not really impressed at all.

on that note, as you whine about how theres no necessity for 5th generation, when 4th generation will do, then why is 4.5 necessary when Gen 4 will as you say, do just fine?

I think what started this argument was other like myself questioned with the benefit of hindsight if Gen 4.5 was really worth the time and expense that was put into it. Your arguments whether you mean to or not seemingly confirm that time and again.

Don't stop posting, you keep proving me right :mrgreen:

For the Rafale, the number of aircraft ordered has been a program that has been determined for many years, and when you look at the program, each version of the burst scrupulously respects the specifications pre-established since the beginning of the contract.


Here again you are mistaken! I would like to know who you are as a specialist, how the F-35 behaves at supersonic speed and how long it can stay that way. How would the structures react if the F-35 had to maneuver at 1.4 mach to avoid a missile in front approach considering that it would have to take a large number of G to avoid it?



you yourself specifically mentioned that fifth generation fighters handle things like the S-400 you specifically mentioned. So now your trying to come up with Xbox scenarios to prove what? you already conceded the point...

Make up your mind dude. one minute the Rafale is a cheap alternative for when the 5th generation is unnecessary overmatch and the next your telling us how superior Rafale is... and how 4th genaration can do what 5th can do, but 4.5 is totally necessary when Gen 4 will do:

wil59 wrote: a 4 th generation aircraft would have given the same results.


so 4.5 is unnecessary?

Image

worse than some of these Gripen Fanboys.

in fact your fanboyism is so over the top it only hurts your arguments and utterly lacks any objective looks or balanced factual accounting. This may not be the forum for you, we do actually try to avoid chatterboxing spamming fanboyism. There are many forums online that do support that. Your time may be better spent there, because you're not fooling anyone here.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 04 Dec 2019, 19:00
by XanderCrews
wil59 wrote: To be honest, I have seen on several publications that the flight time was much higher compared to an f-16 or even a Rafale ,so yes it is bigger too I obviously consider it but does it justify a cost of 30 to 40% more expensive?



INDIA: 36 Rafale jets was signed for €7.87 billion (according to XE.co m thats $8.54 Billion as of the moment)

BELGIUM: $6.5 billion Foreign Military Sales deal for 34 F-35 fighter jet. (And thats with the additional FMS fees... )

POLAND: September 11, 2019 - The State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign Military Sale to Poland of thirty-two (32) F-35 Joint Strike Fighter aircraft with support for an estimated cost of $6.5 billion. The Defense Security Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale on September 10, 2019.

Poland has requested to buy thirty-two (32) F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Conventional Take Off and Landing (CTOL) Aircraft and thirty-three (33) Pratt & Whitney F-135 Engines. Also included are Electronic Warfare Systems; Command, Control, Communications, Computer, and Intelligence/Communications, Navigational, and Identification (C4I/CNI); Autonomic Logistics Global Support System (ALGS); Autonomic Logistics Information System (ALIS); Full Mission Trainer; Weapons Employment Capability, and other Subsystems, Features, and Capabilities; F-35 unique infrared flares; reprogramming center; F-35 Performance Based Logistics; software development/integration; aircraft ferry and tanker support; support equipment; tools and test equipment; communications equipment; spares and repair parts; personnel training and training equipment; publications and technical documents; U.S. Government and contractor engineering, logistics, and personnel services; and other related elements of logistics and program support. The estimated cost is $6.5 billion. (again, with additional FMS fees)

Does the additional cost of the Rafale justify it?

Image

Here is an article I read recently on the operating cost of the F-35: We have been perceiving it for some time, the doctrine of the "all stealthy" with the F-22 and F-35 no longer appeals. This is due to the cost of purchases and flight hours that negatively affect staffing. However, it has become clear that the provision of enough aircraft to hold during external operations (OpEx) and to maintain an adequate number of aircraft to ensure the safety of the American territory, the training and education of new pilots is not compatible with a limited number of aircraft, even if they are stealthy. In Washington, the Congressional Budget Office presented the U.S. federal government with a number of ideas to reduce costs, including reducing the number of additional purchases of Lockheed-Martin F-35 "Lightning II", withdrawing the Rockwell B-1B Lancer bomber fleets and postponing the development of the Northrop Grumman B-21 stealth bomber.

Reduce the deficit:

As part of the report entitled "Options for Reducing the Deficit: 2019 to 2028", the CBO described dozens of reductions in discretionary spending, both within and outside the Department of Defense, that could reduce the gap between U.S. government revenues and expenditures. The agency's analysis was made in light of a federal deficit that is expected to average 5.1% of GDP between 2022 and 2025, losses that would cause the federal government's debt to rise to levels higher than those of the Second World War. The plan to cancel additional F-35 purchases between 2019 and 2028 is expected to save the Pentagon $13 billion, according to the CBO. Instead of buying the F-35, the US Air Force would buy 510 F-16 Fighting-Falcon with the standard "Block70/75" Viper and 250 F-15 "Advanced Eagle" and the Navy and Marine Corps would buy 394 F/A-18 "Advanced Super Hornets until 2028. These purchases would be made within the same timeframe as the one currently in place for the F-35s. The services would continue to operate the 429 F-35s already purchased.

"The advantage of this option is that it would reduce the cost of replacing older DoD fighter aircraft while providing the new F-15, F-16 and F/A-18 with improved capabilities (including modern radars, precision weapons and digital communications). These aircraft are capable of defeating most of the threats that the United States is likely to face in the coming years," says the CBO. "The F-35s already purchased would reinforce the stealth capability of the B-2 and F-22 bombers currently in service, which would improve the ability of the services to operate against adversaries equipped with sophisticated air defence systems." The risk of delaying the B-21:

However, the most significant change in the US Air Force's procurement plans could be to delay the development of the B-21 stealth bomber, which would save about $32 billion between 2020 and 2028, according to the CBO. The B-21 is expected to enter service between the mid- to late 2020s. One of the advantages of this approach would be that the B-21 program could take advantage of future aerospace technologies not yet available, says the CBO.

"Taking advantage of future technological developments could be particularly useful for weapon systems that are expected to be in use for several decades," the agency explains. "Even 10 years later, a new bomber would still be available before today's bombers have reached the end of their useful lives."


this is one of the many alternative concepts the CBO puts forth. its standard. moreover the issue isn't "generations" or "stealth" the concern is the balance of personnel and resources available to bring the number of aircraft required online. this is constant "ballet" the US Armed forces has been playing since the end of the cold war as it tries to replace the old with the new while also deploying and going to war for decades on end. The reason they're proposing improved legacy platforms is their logistics and infrastructure was established decades ago, and is already in place which would make adding to what is already been built helpful and easy as opposed to having to create and stand up new aircraft squadrons and the associated training, parts, infrastructure etc.

in short, this isn't what you think it is and you don't understand whats at the root of all this. naturally this careful explanation will probably go right over your head and be completely dismissed, but thats ok.

oh and For the record the CBO recommended the cancellation of the Gen 4.5 Super Hornet as it was considered unnecessary with the development of the 5th generation JSF :mrgreen:

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wil59 wrote: What a bunch of bullshit I would like to know why the British have embarked on a 5th generation program since they now have the F-35? It puzzles me since apparently the F-35 is the ultimate aircraft!


to replace the Gen 4.5 Typhoon. :mrgreen: no idea why thats so puzzling...

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 04 Dec 2019, 19:14
by XanderCrews
hornetfinn wrote:
wil59 wrote: Um, look at the operating costs for a 5-generation aircraft and that of a 4-generation aircraft, maintenance for each flight hour, fuel cost for each flight hour, how many men for the maintenance of an aircraft vs. 4th generation! You will see, but you already knew that exploiting a 5th generation is much more expensive.


Danish Air Force (and USAF) calculations disagree with that. F-35 was calculated to be cheaper to buy and operate than 4+ gen Super Hornet or especially Eurofighter Typhoon. USAF says that F-35 flight hour costs are not that much higher than in F-16C. F-22 is more expensive to operate than most 4th gen fighters, but it's also much larger and powerful aircraft than all current Western 4th gen fighters.



well said.

This isn't even close really. Even if the Rafale cheaper, the fact that the Typhoon (another gen 4.5) is so notoriously costly would seemingly hurt the Gen 4.5 argument, the same way including the expensive F-22 into F-35 accounting would hurt the 5th gen argument. F-35 is going to be completely competitive and again that ALREADY BEEN SHOWN with 4th gen and gen 4.5 operating costs. The Danes even proved it saved money because it was qualitatively better, meaning fewer 5th generation aircraft were even needed in the first place! so its not even a matter of 1 vs 1 CFPH comparison when the danes and others are also saving by not being forced to by larger numbers of airplanes that will have to be supported and maintained for decades.

yet another nail in the coffin when people consider the Belgium/poland F-35 prices vs the Rafale India price-- and the Belgians and Poles are still getting BETTER AND MORE CAPABLE AIRPLANES

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 04 Dec 2019, 23:07
by vilters
Facts and figures.

The USA is gonna build some 3.000+ F-35's, and they have the logistical chain in place to maintain the lot.
As an extra bonus : They have decades of experience with stealth on a number of "combat proven" airframes.

France : No stealth experience and as for numbers? Some 200 Rafales?
UK : No stealth and Tiffy at also around some 200 airframes.

No further explanation needed.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 04 Dec 2019, 23:27
by XanderCrews
vilters wrote:Facts and figures.

The USA is gonna build some 3.000+ F-35's, and they have the logistical chain in place to maintain the lot.
As an extra bonus : They have decades of experience with stealth on a number of "combat proven" airframes.


yup

France : No stealth experience and as for numbers? Some 200 Rafales?


not even 200.

UK : No stealth and Tiffy at also around some 200 airframes.

No further explanation needed.


the EF Typhoon program too had some serious issues with logistics and work shares if i recall. added a lot of cost.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2019, 02:48
by Corsair1963
wil59 wrote:
I understand myself, that's the main thing. You have your opinions, I have mine, say I'm taking medication without you saying why you didn't agree? Okay it's really easy, and without interest short...



Honestly, didn't think it was really worth my time..... :roll:

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2019, 03:07
by Corsair1963
vilters wrote:Facts and figures.

The USA is gonna build some 3.000+ F-35's, and they have the logistical chain in place to maintain the lot.
As an extra bonus : They have decades of experience with stealth on a number of "combat proven" airframes.

France : No stealth experience and as for numbers? Some 200 Rafales?
UK : No stealth and Tiffy at also around some 200 airframes.

No further explanation needed.



The larger numbers of F-35's produced will also have a positive impact on future upgrades. As the cost of development will be spread over a large base. This to will help drive down the cost of those upgrades!

The competition won't have that luxury. They will have fewer such upgrades and will have to pay more for the ones they do have.
:shock:

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2019, 10:14
by wil59
XanderCrews wrote:
. Um, look at the operating costs for a 5-generation aircraft and that of a 4-generation aircraft, maintenance for each flight hour, fuel cost for each flight hour, how many men for the maintenance of an aircraft vs. 4th generation!


the first thing is that CFPH has no set international standard and there are various methods even within the US about how to calculate it. moreover, its constantly shifting as in the US legacy airplanes cost more to CPFH every year. Eventually those curves meet and head in opposite directions.


You will see, but you already knew that exploiting a 5th generation is much more expensive. And now calculated over 15/20 years?.



If we are talking F-35 I'm going to bet heavily on a lower CPFH for F-35 than Rafale based on the fleet size and the fact that its a single engine alone. theres aready twice as Many F-35s in the world the last 10 years than there is the Rafale the last 38 years. This matters because one of the key notions behind the F-35 is a huge fleet size, economical manufacturing by mass and commonality within types. This is one of the reasons why F-35 is favorably compared with F-16 and other legacy platforms ALREADY. The sheer prices Rafale fetches on the international market, namely india also casts serious suspicion on its subsequent operating costs.

The F-22 is of course far more expensive and one of the reasons behind that is the SMALL FLEET SIZE.

I dont think the Rafale is cheap when theres even smaller numbers produced, with a very small annual production rate as well. Of all the Eurocanards Rafale has the smallest fleet size by far. India is a fiasco and its struggled with sales in Europe.

Dassault Aviation would not embark on a 5th generation project if it could not do so both technically and financially.



with enough time and money I have no doubt, but given the sheer amount of time and expense it took to create an airplane thats routinely outdone by the Super Hornet, you'll have to forgive me for being not really impressed at all.

on that note, as you whine about how theres no necessity for 5th generation, when 4th generation will do, then why is 4.5 necessary when Gen 4 will as you say, do just fine?

I think what started this argument was other like myself questioned with the benefit of hindsight if Gen 4.5 was really worth the time and expense that was put into it. Your arguments whether you mean to or not seemingly confirm that time and again.

Don't stop posting, you keep proving me right :mrgreen:

For the Rafale, the number of aircraft ordered has been a program that has been determined for many years, and when you look at the program, each version of the burst scrupulously respects the specifications pre-established since the beginning of the contract.


Here again you are mistaken! I would like to know who you are as a specialist, how the F-35 behaves at supersonic speed and how long it can stay that way. How would the structures react if the F-35 had to maneuver at 1.4 mach to avoid a missile in front approach considering that it would have to take a large number of G to avoid it?



you yourself specifically mentioned that fifth generation fighters handle things like the S-400 you specifically mentioned. So now your trying to come up with Xbox scenarios to prove what? you already conceded the point...

Make up your mind dude. one minute the Rafale is a cheap alternative for when the 5th generation is unnecessary overmatch and the next your telling us how superior Rafale is... and how 4th genaration can do what 5th can do, but 4.5 is totally necessary when Gen 4 will do:

wil59 wrote: a 4 th generation aircraft would have given the same results.


so 4.5 is unnecessary?

Image

worse than some of these Gripen Fanboys.

in fact your fanboyism is so over the top it only hurts your arguments and utterly lacks any objective looks or balanced factual accounting. This may not be the forum for you, we do actually try to avoid chatterboxing spamming fanboyism. There are many forums online that do support that. Your time may be better spent there, because you're not fooling anyone here.

Now the F-18 surpasses the Rafale! Um, can you elaborate?. There is one thing you can do, look at the testimonies of the F18 pilots who have done exercises with the Rafale on American carriers, you will see that they do not have the same opinions as you! While trying to minimize things, pride obliges! And I will remind you that even if the F-18 super-hornet was better on some things and worse on others, the prototype Rafale released in 1991, the prototype super-hornet made are first flight in 1995, so 2 planes from the same decade, so I have no problem with that. Despite this, I sincerely believe that the Rafale is superior to the f-18, more versatile (omnirole for Dassault determination) and sharper in dog-fight, with its aesa and Meteor combined this must give it an AA air superiority. And I could associate nuclear capacity as well.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2019, 14:31
by mixelflick
I think we've seen the last of UK designed fighters with the Typhoon. Granted it was a team effort, and it produced a fine aircraft. But the costs and expertise involved in designing a new, 5.5/6th gen fighter are just too much. And there's no guarantee it'll outperform the F-35, especially when unit cost, CPFH and integration into NATO's battlespace is taken into consideration.

No, with so many F-35's proliferating and bringing so much capability, a "new" next gen fighter for the UK isn't a smart investment. What I think will happen instead is the UK (and others) will produce more and better UAV's, which will be cheaper and compliment their F-35 fleets further out.

Too costly and entirely unrealistic IMO. I guess time will tell...

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2019, 16:32
by XanderCrews
I'll gladly elaborate, but first lets do a review:

You said the 5th generation has never seen combat-- that was false.

You said that anything the 5th generation could do, the 4th generation could do too-- this totally subverted your own original argument of the need for Gen 4.5 aircraft at all

you made a glib comment about the UK's next gen fighter being unccessary since the F-35 is awesome-- yet the purpose of the next Gen fighter is to replace the Typhoon, not the F-35

You claimed the F-35 was Superior to the Rafale -- this was TRUE. but

You then said the F-35 cost more-- this was demonstrably false.

I feel its important to bring up these points as you seem to post with some kind schizophrenic style and can't even keep track of your own claims. so lets begin again now on this small subject shall we?

wil59 wrote: Now the F-18 surpasses the Rafale! Um, can you elaborate?. There is one thing you can do, look at the testimonies of the F18 pilots who have done exercises with the Rafale on American carriers, you will see that they do not have the same opinions as you! While trying to minimize things, pride obliges!


I really don't care about pilot testimonies. I think at best they're guidelines. and should always be taken with a grain of salt. You seem to put a lot of stock into them so thats great. unprofessional but great. we also have pilots who consider the Rafale Underpowered, but lets not talk about that.


And I will remind you that even if the F-18 super-hornet was better on some things and worse on others, the prototype Rafale released in 1991, the prototype super-hornet made are first flight in 1995, so 2 planes from the same decade, so I have no problem with that.


I have no idea why this is relevant at all.

Despite this, I sincerely believe that the Rafale is superior to the f-18, more versatile (omnirole for Dassault determination) and sharper in dog-fight, with its aesa and Meteor combined this must give it an AA air superiority. And I could associate nuclear capacity as well.


if you check the stats of the legacy hornet vs the Rafale vs the Super Hornet, the Rafale and Legacy hornet match up extremely closely. so in terms of a lot of physical performance the Super Hornet has far more capacity this directly translates to more versatility with ordnance, range, and mission types. The Super Hornet also has the dedicated Growler EW version. The Super Hornet has many classified systems and other aspects that the Rafale lacks. (you can see the Canada competition for an example of this) I'll gladly conceede the Meteor is a great missile, but the Rafale is still closer to the old legacy ybug the USN has shed itself of. in the meantime the Super Hornet has an air to air kill with the boring old AMRAAM. and this is before getting into the Super Hornets impressive high AOA and control-ability

The Super Hornet/Growler has had far far more example produced and notable export success. The simple fact is that the super hornet does more, in great numbers and is the backbone of the USN. It fills a much larger perfromance "box" than the Rafale, even if the Rafale outclasses it in very narrow aspects in very specific examples. The Super Hornet simple does more, with more versatility. So when everyone is comparing what the Super Hornet can do better than the legacy hornet in terms of fuel and capacity etc, we also know with the Rafale and Legacy hornet so close in weight, loadout capacity, bringback capacity (one of the big objectives of the Super Hornet) and a host of other metrics its thus superior to the Rafale. in fact if the USN was offered Rafale as the Legacy Hornet replacement rather than the Super Hornet, Rafale would be quickly rejected. Its simple can't do the things the Super Hornet improved on. Again compare the stats of the 3 airplanes. You'll quickly see the occasional kilo for kilo similiarity between Hornet and Rafale, and the the SH outclassing them both


oh and as for the nuke LOL, its very funny to hear you say you don't need something like the F-35 since there aren't S-400s everywhere and then jump to nuclear weapons. Do you see what I mean about schizophrenia? Nobody needs to worry about S-400s, but Nukes are critical. Well Wil59, are we more likely to be encountering advanced SAMs or launching Nukes? I'd love to know.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2019, 23:43
by vilters
On a side note.
A very small side note.
Just a detail you know.

EVERYBODY that "had" 4 gen airframes is buying the F-35 (Including the UK , just another detail on an even smaller side note)

So ? ? Just as a detail you know. :doh:

Who on planet earth is going to buy the "next" European wonder? (never mind where it comes from France, Germany or UK)
All European countries are "served" for the next 50 years.

France and Germany?
Neither have the experience nor the resources to even start thinking about R&D.

And don't forget, each has the political obligation to protect its own industry. => Reason number ONE why nothing in Europe works.

Or are we waiting for the next Tornado, Tiffy, AM-400 failure.

Who cares, it's only taxpayers money.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 06 Dec 2019, 00:54
by XanderCrews
vilters wrote:On a side note.
A very small side note.
Just a detail you know.

EVERYBODY that "had" 4 gen airframes is buying the F-35 (Including the UK , just another detail on an even smaller side note)

So ? ? Just as a detail you know. :doh:

Who on planet earth is going to buy the "next" European wonder? (never mind where it comes from France, Germany or UK)
All European countries are "served" for the next 50 years.

France and Germany?
Neither have the experience nor the resources to even start thinking about R&D.

And don't forget, each has the political obligation to protect its own industry. => Reason number ONE why nothing in Europe works.

Or are we waiting for the next Tornado, Tiffy, AM-400 failure.

Who cares, it's only taxpayers money.


well the US only has decades of real world experience with 4th generation 4.5 generation and 5th generation, in some cased all 3 operating and fighting in the same AO. So surely they have no clue about the trade offs and advantages and attributes of the various types... all hail Rafale.

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 06 Dec 2019, 17:27
by mixelflick
I can see where SH does some (but certainly not all) things better vs. Rafale. And that's been my issue with it from the get go: It's not absolutely dominant, and that IMO is what our brave pilots deserve.

It pains me to hear about how American F-18's found themselves lacking vs. Mig-29's in some cases, because of their inferior thrust to weight ratio. Ditto for the SH vs. Rafale. But the issue here again is the UK's next gen fighter.

I think the lesson from the F-18SH/Rafale etc. is that "multi-role" is the new reality. Translation? It won't be a dominant air to air machine like Tiffy or the F-22 - we don't design aircraft like that anymore. "Air to everything" means more capability, which means things will only get more expensive.

They're going to wind up with something LIKE the F-35, with no guarantees it'll be any better. In fact, it could be much worse. So the relevant questions are...

1.) Do they have the expertise to do it?
2.) Do they have the $ to do it?

I'm not convinced the answer to either is "yes". And even if one of them is yes, they can't afford the luxury of just one - it needs to be yes to both. Too tall an order, IMO. Just keep buying up-rated F-35's. Will take care of any problems they have for the next 50 years...

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 06 Dec 2019, 19:48
by XanderCrews
mixelflick wrote:I can see where SH does some (but certainly not all) things better vs. Rafale. And that's been my issue with it from the get go: It's not absolutely dominant, and that IMO is what our brave pilots deserve.

It pains me to hear about how American F-18's found themselves lacking vs. Mig-29's in some cases, because of their inferior thrust to weight ratio. Ditto for the SH vs. Rafale.


The SH does far more than the Rafale does. The Rafale outclasses it in only very specific narrow aspects. while doind everything else better than the original Hornet. moreover, theres still plenty of people still using legacy hornets and harriers right now and will be for the next 10 years.


But the issue here again is the UK's next gen fighter.

I think the lesson from the F-18SH/Rafale etc. is that "multi-role" is the new reality. Translation? It won't be a dominant air to air machine like Tiffy or the F-22 - we don't design aircraft like that anymore. "Air to everything" means more capability, which means things will only get more expensive.

They're going to wind up with something LIKE the F-35, with no guarantees it'll be any better. In fact, it could be much worse. So the relevant questions are...

1.) Do they have the expertise to do it?
2.) Do they have the $ to do it?

I'm not convinced the answer to either is "yes". And even if one of them is yes, they can't afford the luxury of just one - it needs to be yes to both. Too tall an order, IMO. Just keep buying up-rated F-35's. Will take care of any problems they have for the next 50 years...



its entirely possible. What Wil59 is missing is not that the Rafale happened. It did. thats great and all, but the question is what they really got for what they paid vs the time and effort they put into all of it.

was the juice worth the squeeze? What a Euro next gen fighter has to do (especially if its Gen 5.5 or whatever) is outclass the F-35 and F-22 while not falling victim to the same problems of not only 5th gen development but that which happened with EF typhoon development. Thats an EXTREMELY tall order. "all we are asking is perfection on the first try of the most advanced fighter ever designed" yeah good luck with that!

Can they do it? sure. with enough time and money anything is possible. For as good as the Typhoon is, is it so amazingly incredibly amazing that an F-15C or E can't do a lot of the same stuff while also having some other uniqiue advantages? Typhoon is not amazeballs different enough to really bother with if your content with you F-15s. the exception is the RSAF?

everyone else is fine. Japan passed. RoK passed. the US LOL hell no. so lots of F-15 nations are perfectly content. outside of maintaining homegrown jobs and industry Europe probably could have gotten away with canceling these programs when the wall fell and just buying US. but whatever.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 07 Dec 2019, 01:26
by marsavian
The UK next gen fighter is not about being better than F-22/F-35 its low bar main requirement is purely the continuation of UK, i.e. BAE, military aviation technology in this century. It will be the 5th generation equivalent of the Rafale while SCAF/NGF will be the 5th generation equivalent of Typhoon because it will have the guaranteed volume in Europe this time. Whether any of these two products will be better or cheaper than F-35 is immaterial to the sponsoring European governments where independent European military industrial considerations are the primary consideration. They may pick up foreign sales anyway due to US foreign policy barring F-35 from certain countries.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 07 Dec 2019, 11:59
by wil59
XanderCrews wrote:I'll gladly elaborate, but first lets do a review:

You said the 5th generation has never seen combat-- that was false.

You said that anything the 5th generation could do, the 4th generation could do too-- this totally subverted your own original argument of the need for Gen 4.5 aircraft at all

you made a glib comment about the UK's next gen fighter being unccessary since the F-35 is awesome-- yet the purpose of the next Gen fighter is to replace the Typhoon, not the F-35

You claimed the F-35 was Superior to the Rafale -- this was TRUE. but

You then said the F-35 cost more-- this was demonstrably false.

I feel its important to bring up these points as you seem to post with some kind schizophrenic style and can't even keep track of your own claims. so lets begin again now on this small subject shall we?

wil59 wrote: Now the F-18 surpasses the Rafale! Um, can you elaborate?. There is one thing you can do, look at the testimonies of the F18 pilots who have done exercises with the Rafale on American carriers, you will see that they do not have the same opinions as you! While trying to minimize things, pride obliges!


I really don't care about pilot testimonies. I think at best they're guidelines. and should always be taken with a grain of salt. You seem to put a lot of stock into them so thats great. unprofessional but great. we also have pilots who consider the Rafale Underpowered, but lets not talk about that.


And I will remind you that even if the F-18 super-hornet was better on some things and worse on others, the prototype Rafale released in 1991, the prototype super-hornet made are first flight in 1995, so 2 planes from the same decade, so I have no problem with that.


I have no idea why this is relevant at all.

Despite this, I sincerely believe that the Rafale is superior to the f-18, more versatile (omnirole for Dassault determination) and sharper in dog-fight, with its aesa and Meteor combined this must give it an AA air superiority. And I could associate nuclear capacity as well.


if you check the stats of the legacy hornet vs the Rafale vs the Super Hornet, the Rafale and Legacy hornet match up extremely closely. so in terms of a lot of physical performance the Super Hornet has far more capacity this directly translates to more versatility with ordnance, range, and mission types. The Super Hornet also has the dedicated Growler EW version. The Super Hornet has many classified systems and other aspects that the Rafale lacks. (you can see the Canada competition for an example of this) I'll gladly conceede the Meteor is a great missile, but the Rafale is still closer to the old legacy ybug the USN has shed itself of. in the meantime the Super Hornet has an air to air kill with the boring old AMRAAM. and this is before getting into the Super Hornets impressive high AOA and control-ability

The Super Hornet/Growler has had far far more example produced and notable export success. The simple fact is that the super hornet does more, in great numbers and is the backbone of the USN. It fills a much larger perfromance "box" than the Rafale, even if the Rafale outclasses it in very narrow aspects in very specific examples. The Super Hornet simple does more, with more versatility. So when everyone is comparing what the Super Hornet can do better than the legacy hornet in terms of fuel and capacity etc, we also know with the Rafale and Legacy hornet so close in weight, loadout capacity, bringback capacity (one of the big objectives of the Super Hornet) and a host of other metrics its thus superior to the Rafale. in fact if the USN was offered Rafale as the Legacy Hornet replacement rather than the Super Hornet, Rafale would be quickly rejected. Its simple can't do the things the Super Hornet improved on. Again compare the stats of the 3 airplanes. You'll quickly see the occasional kilo for kilo similiarity between Hornet and Rafale, and the the SH outclassing them both


oh and as for the nuke LOL, its very funny to hear you say you don't need something like the F-35 since there aren't S-400s everywhere and then jump to nuclear weapons. Do you see what I mean about schizophrenia? Nobody needs to worry about S-400s, but Nukes are critical. Well Wil59, are we more likely to be encountering advanced SAMs or launching Nukes? I'd love to know.

Look rapport F-35. https://www.pogo.org/investigation/2019 ... e-threats/

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 07 Dec 2019, 14:14
by disconnectedradical
Citing POGO on the F-35? They have about zero credibility on modern weapons.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2019, 08:04
by knowan
disconnectedradical wrote:Citing POGO on the F-35? They have about zero credibility on modern weapons.


Yep, even the slightest bit of scrutiny of their claims reveals them to be highly misleading.

Eg, the claim of an average of $158.4 million per F-35 includes research and development, military construction, operations & maintenance, spare parts, etc.
If the same standard was applied to the costs of aircraft such as the Rafale, it would result in the cost being over $350 million per plane, and even the Gripen A/B/C/D being up around $100 million per plane.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 09 Dec 2019, 06:58
by XanderCrews


Boy thats pure desperation right there. You also already admitted the F-35 was superior. we were debating about Rafale vs Super Hornet since F-35 is well beyond Rafale already.

I'll say it again:

You said the 5th generation has never seen combat-- that was false.

You said that anything the 5th generation could do, the 4th generation could do too-- this totally subverted your own original argument of the need for Gen 4.5 aircraft at all

you made a glib comment about the UK's next gen fighter being unnecessary since the F-35 is awesome-- yet the purpose of the next Gen fighter is to replace the Typhoon, not the F-35

You claimed the F-35 was Superior to the Rafale -- this was TRUE. but

You then said the F-35 cost more-- this was demonstrably false.


Your entire host of arguments have fallen utterly flat. The one redeeming quality of the Rafale is that you say its cheaper, but its not even that. I provided not just one example but 2 examples of where the F-35 comes in at a much lower cost than the Rafale, and I even went so far as to show everything that is included in the Polish Deal. (which is important because these deals can vary widely)

This is over, and the next time you want to fanboy post and trot out these obvious lies, I'm going to gladly refer you to this thread

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 01 Jan 2020, 15:33
by marsavian
Ambitious Tempest fighter jet programme to accelerate in 2020

International companies will double UK recruitment as they race to finalise business case

https://amp.ft.com/content/64011a42-28d ... 4e74b0ef3#

The UK’s ambitious plans to develop a next generation stealth fighter jet are to accelerate in the coming 12 months, with the four international companies leading the programme preparing to step up recruitment as they race to finalise a business case for the project.

The four founding partners of the Tempest programme — BAE Systems; the UK arm of Leonardo of Italy; MBDA, the European missile maker; and Rolls-Royce — have until December 2020 to complete their analysis of a programme critical to the future of Britain’s combat air capabilities.

“We have to give the government confidence we are working towards a viable international partnership,” said Andrew Kennedy, strategic campaigns director in BAE Systems’ Air division. “They have to be confident we are doing something that will be affordable, capable and delivered on time.”

To meet the deadline, the companies plan to more than double the total UK workforce involved in the project from the current 1,000 to 2,500 by 2021.

The acceleration of the Tempest programme comes as the UK prepares to carry out a sweeping defence review which will consider the UK’s diplomatic and military place in the world after Brexit.

But with the Ministry of Defence facing a £15bn shortfall in its equipment budget over the next decade, the review will also look at ways the British armed forces can reduce costs.

Tempest is the centrepiece of Britain’s combat air strategy and designed to underline the country’s intention to retain its cutting-edge expertise in spite of Brexit, after being left out of a rival Franco-German future fighter project.

It will eventually replace the Eurofighter Typhoon, which will start to be retired from Royal Air Force service in about 2040, and will complement the US made F-35 stealth fighter jet.

The companies developing Tempest aim to devise a business case that delivers a cutting-edge combat air system — which may include not just advanced weapons but deployable drones — in about half the 20 years it took to take Typhoon from the concept phase to operational service.

“To get this number [of jobs] this early — that is pretty significant,” said Francis Tusa, editor of Defence Analysis. “If you went back to the early 2000s, BAE Systems would have had 3,000 people working on Typhoon. But at this stage of game, to have 2,500 research engineers — that is big.”

The Tempest project was unveiled in the summer of 2018 with initial funding of £2bn-a-year following a decision by France and Germany to leave the UK out of its future fighter jet programme.

Since then, Italy and Sweden have joined the UK project, while Spain has committed to the Franco-German fighter.

Both programmes have continued independently, although many experts believe that they will eventually have to converge. There are questions over whether the UK can afford such an ambitious programme given the funding shortfall in the MoD’s equipment plan and concerns over next year’s budget.

Executives involved in both projects have privately admitted that eventually there will be pressure to merge. However, the longer the two projects continue, the harder it may be to integrate them. “Both sides are very much on their paths,” said one person close to the UK project.

Another senior UK executive said his company had no intention of accepting a secondary role in a project led by Dassault for France and Airbus for Germany, with Safran and MTU collaborating on the propulsion system.

Tempest is considered vital to secure the future of the UK’s £6bn-a-year combat air sector, which has made up more than 80 per cent of the country’s defence exports over the past decade.

“Team Tempest will ensure the UK has the capability to sit at the top table in an international collaborative programme,” said Mr Kennedy.

When the project was launched, the government prioritised international partnerships both to reduce costs and to open up new export markets.

But the collaboration was being done differently than in the past, according to Mr Kennedy. The initial phase of the project was not about sharing out work between partners but “how we will work in the future . . . It is about how to develop capabilities quicker”, he said.

The French and German teams, meanwhile, are determined to limit participation in the first phase of their project, when capabilities are identified, responsibilities are sketched out and work begins on a demonstrator.

“If we open the door to the British, the Scandinavians, the Italians, we will do another 400M and it will be a disaster,” said one executive involved in the Franco-German project. “Every time you add one new partner you multiply the cost by two or three. Everybody wants to impose some specs, which is understandable, but when you build something where five, six or seven people are happy, you build a monster.”

However, the Franco-German project has also been beset by tensions, in particular over the leadership of the engine programme. France’s spending bill for 2020, passed this month in the Senate, raised concerns that the project could be at risk due to serious disagreements between the French and German industrial partners. In early December Safran of France and MTU of Germany reached agreement on a division of responsibilities for the design development and servicing of propulsion system.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 01 Jan 2020, 23:42
by Corsair1963
Actually, the US maybe wise to hold off a little on developing a 6th Generation Fighter. Just as it did with the F-22/F-35 vs Rafale/Typhoon.

Which, would allow it to maintain it's advantage.... :|

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 02 Jan 2020, 00:05
by marsavian
The US is allegedly developing a 6th gen fighter/bomber at the slow pace required for the technology to mature, i.e. the hypersonic SR-72. However it will still probably beat these laggard European 5th gens into production ;).

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 02 Jan 2020, 15:02
by vilters
Let us look in the mirror; We are too late.
Europe missed the 5th Generation stealth fighter and sensor fusion capabilities integration completely.
We arent even close to the Chinese these days.

And the US is already in the study / prototype phase of a 6th Generation.


the tech capability list / order is as follows.

1 USA
2 Chinese
3 Russia
4 (and a distant 4) is Europe

Why? We continue to fight internally and that prevents moving forward.

And we are doing it again: Germany/France on one side and the UK on the other.

The longer we continue this internal fight / Bullshit, the more we will drop behind.

Edited for the market:

The UK and the ex-F-16 market already decided to go F-35. Every country involved has airframes or signed contracts.

Who on planet Earth is (( ahum )) "Europe" going to build planes for? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

And an answer like : To keep the Industry going is (again) bullshit.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 02 Jan 2020, 20:39
by madrat
Your list is unfounded speculation.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 02 Jan 2020, 21:30
by marsavian
vilters wrote:Who on planet Earth is (( ahum )) "Europe" going to build planes for?


Themselves and the Middle East/India etc, i.e. current Typhoon/Rafale buyers who won't be getting F-35 any time soon due to politics.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 03 Jan 2020, 12:08
by knowan
vilters wrote:And an answer like : To keep the Industry going is (again) bullshit.


There are legitimate strategic reasons to produce unnecessary military equipment in order to retain the related industries.

It's expensive, but it is much less expensive than trying to produce the equipment when it is needed and there isn't an existing industry.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 03 Jan 2020, 12:36
by vilters
There is NO speculation in that list.

The USA is a collection of states all working together.
China is under strickt central control.
Russia is Russia and will Always be Russia

Europe on the other hand is a collection of individual countries, all trying to protect individual industries.

Europe is a "wet dream" (mostly from crying).

What are we aiming for?
The next AM400 disaster?
Or the next generation of overweight helicopters?
On top of the previous failure? The Tornado?

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 03 Jan 2020, 15:17
by mixelflick
I don't know that I'd categorize the Tornado as a disaster. More along the lines of the F-111, which suffered a protracted development period but ultimately resulted in a very useful tactical bomber. Few would argue that the Typhoon isn't a potent fighter, perhaps the best in the West after the Raptor (at least until the F-35 got here).

The problem with the eurocanards was timing: They came online just prior to 5th gen aircraft changing the scene. Though Typhoon largely achieved its objectives, it didn't do so in overwhelming fashion. Which means its competitive advantage was short lived, and is increasingly eroded as each day ticks by.

Having said all of that, I don't see this Tempest thing ever coming to fruition. Too much money, too many cooks will ultimately appear in the kitchen and jumping from 4++ gen aircraft to a world beating 6th isn't likely. I think the UK just needs to swallow its national pride and buy more US aircraft. That's true almost everywhere else you look too. Look at the Indian attempt to build a light strike fighter (Tejas). I don't expect Japan's or S. Korea's attempt at buildng a stealth fighter to turn out any different, either..

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 03 Jan 2020, 22:07
by vilters
The problem for everybody is final cost per airframe and the US can devide F-35 R&D costs over +/- 3.000 airframes.

If the UK, or France, or Germany, or Japan, or Korea, or Turkey builds a "next gen" ?
How many are they going to build, and at what final unit cost?

It is for all practical reasons impossible to compete with the USA the next few decades.

And tech wise?
The US has the stealth experience starting with U2, SR-72, F-117, F-22, F-35 and B2.

Europe has a blanco sheet. Yeah, a million national and international discussions, but nothing flying to show for.

Tiffy and Rafale belong to the top of the bill 4th gen, but that's about it.
And even with those and comparing costs/airframe Tiffy and Rafale to the F-35 you are nowhere even close.

Russia, China and India each have their own market.
Their biggest problem is internal corruption.
Lots of investments but little of that money actually arrives on the working floor.

Completely agree with mixelflick ; "Europe" has to swallow its pride and buy USA airframes.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 03 Jan 2020, 23:05
by irt
vilters wrote:Let us look in the mirror; We are too late.
Europe missed the 5th Generation stealth fighter and sensor fusion capabilities integration completely.
We arent even close to the Chinese these days.

And the US is already in the study / prototype phase of a 6th Generation.


the tech capability list / order is as follows.

1 USA
2 Chinese
3 Russia
4 (and a distant 4) is Europe

Why? We continue to fight internally and that prevents moving forward.

And we are doing it again: Germany/France on one side and the UK on the other.

The longer we continue this internal fight / Bullshit, the more we will drop behind.

Edited for the market:

The UK and the ex-F-16 market already decided to go F-35. Every country involved has airframes or signed contracts.

Who on planet Earth is (( ahum )) "Europe" going to build planes for? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

And an answer like : To keep the Industry going is (again) bullshit.


Are you high or something?

Europe never had any plans for a 5th gen plane.
The canards were built to counter the soviets latest planes and
they did. Still to this day the Russians aint got nothing flying thats even close to any of the european fighters. And before you say something, the Su57 is a big joke, just like all the F35 fanboys are saying.

U think Russia and China has better tech capability than Europe?
Neither Russia or China cant even build an engine that matches the EJ or snecma engines developed in the 80's. Their newest planes still fly with uppgraded su27 engines. Still inferior to any of the european engines. As far as I know the russians havnt even fielded any AESA radars in any of their fighter jets. China claims alot, and the J20 look way more serious than the Su57 but still doubt they beat the europeans in military tech.

Uk went F35 cus they needed a Harrier replacement for the new aircraft carriers, they never had any plans to replace Typhoon with the F35.

Europe build planes for themselves, and that way they can get them as they want them. Yes US is planing for 6th gen, are they gonna let NATO or EU allies buy those planes if they want to? Or develop it in cooperation with the European nations? No way, just like the F22. The US dont even trust its closest NATO allies to buy its best planes, so why shuld the European nations scrap their own aviation industry and trust the US to supply them with what they want and need? And whatever the new European jets turn out to be, they will be way better than anything the Ruskies will be able to produce.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 04 Jan 2020, 09:38
by milosh
irt wrote:U think Russia and China has better tech capability than Europe?
Neither Russia or China cant even build an engine that matches the EJ or snecma engines developed in the 80's. Their newest planes still fly with uppgraded su27 engines. Still inferior to any of the european engines. As far as I know the russians havnt even fielded any AESA radars in any of their fighter jets. China claims alot, and the J20 look way more serious than the Su57 but still doubt they beat the europeans in military tech.


117 isn't AL-31F. 117 have new core, new ignition system (one of kind in world), new nozzle (at least later ones) and new FADEC.

Su-57 and J-20 both carry weapons internally compared to canards which carry them externally, both carry huge ammount of fuel so no need for external fuel tanks which are common thing on canards. So they are vlo or much easier to became vlo then canards.

Europe have tech that isn't question but what Europe don't have is consensus, so Germany and France will try to build new fighter, France would like to sell fighter to Saudis which could use it against neighbors and Germans would say no and then program would be dead.

Brits on other side don't have any big partner so they would make Tempest just for themselves so price would be astronomical.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 04 Jan 2020, 16:17
by irt
milosh wrote:
irt wrote:U think Russia and China has better tech capability than Europe?
Neither Russia or China cant even build an engine that matches the EJ or snecma engines developed in the 80's. Their newest planes still fly with uppgraded su27 engines. Still inferior to any of the european engines. As far as I know the russians havnt even fielded any AESA radars in any of their fighter jets. China claims alot, and the J20 look way more serious than the Su57 but still doubt they beat the europeans in military tech.


117 isn't AL-31F. 117 have new core, new ignition system (one of kind in world), new nozzle (at least later ones) and new FADEC.

Su-57 and J-20 both carry weapons internally compared to canards which carry them externally, both carry huge ammount of fuel so no need for external fuel tanks which are common thing on canards. So even if you don't take in account RCS they are lot more potent then canards.

Europe have tech that isn't question but what Europe don't have is consensus, so Germany and France will try to build new fighter, France would like to sell fighter to Saudis which could use it against neighbors and Germans would say no and then program would be dead.

Brits on other side don't have any big partner so they would make Tempest just for themselves so price would be astronomical.


LOL that clown claimed that Europe was at the same military tech level as India, and that Russia and China is waaaay ahead lol.

Russia is the military threat to the European nations, not China. The Su57 carry weapons internaly sure, but its overall build quallity, and stealth level is nowhere close to beeing a Vlo design like F35 or F22. Then there is big doubts about the quallity of the russian avionics in general. Then they will build a grand total of 76 of them in 10 years time. The bulk of their fighter force will still be legacy Su27 derivates in 2030.

The 117 is the best they got, and its reliability is way behind the European engines. An AL-31F is thrash after 2000hrs, they managed to bump that number to 4000hrs with the 117. The Ej200 and m88 are 30+ year old engines and got 6000hrs service life.

There are what? 800 eurocanards in europe that will need to be replaced after 2040. If the Britts/Italians/Swedes or France/Germans/Spanish build fighters with beter kinematic Performance than the F35 and more towards the air superiority role
Im sure there are potential for them in the export market.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 04 Jan 2020, 17:22
by vilters
800 Eurocanards?
The counter stops well below 400.

Combat ready?
About 75 on a good day with lots of Sunshine.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 04 Jan 2020, 17:25
by irt
vilters wrote:800 Eurocanards?
The counter stops well below 400.

Combat ready?
About 75 on a good day with lots of Sunshine.


Ok....

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 04 Jan 2020, 21:25
by milosh
irt wrote:The 117 is the best they got, and its reliability is way behind the European engines. An AL-31F is thrash after 2000hrs, they managed to bump that number to 4000hrs with the 117. The Ej200 and m88 are 30+ year old engines and got 6000hrs service life.


117S is what powered Su-35 it have 4000h service life, it use similar core as AL-31F. 117 is what power Su-57 isn't clear what engine it is based on. For example in Zvezda documentary about Su-57, engine constructor clearly say it isn't 117S. So it could be 117 is scaled down AL-41, Soviet F119.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 04 Jan 2020, 22:47
by marsavian
vilters wrote:800 Eurocanards?
The counter stops well below 400.

Combat ready?
About 75 on a good day with lots of Sunshine.


UK 160
Germany 143
Italy 96
Spain 73
France 180
Sweden 98

The above do not include Gripen E or follow on Typhoon orders from Germany and Spain or secondary European users so 800 is a good shout at the European replacement market never mind foreign export users elsewhere that take the number well over 1000.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 04 Jan 2020, 23:27
by vilters
Nice numbers.

Care to share how many can fly?

Care to share how many you get combat ready?

Example for Germany ; They get 6 Tiffy's combat ready., Ok, 8 on a good day.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 05 Jan 2020, 00:11
by marsavian
Strawman argument as it won't affect the numbers bought to replace them.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 05 Jan 2020, 13:37
by irt
milosh wrote:
irt wrote:The 117 is the best they got, and its reliability is way behind the European engines. An AL-31F is thrash after 2000hrs, they managed to bump that number to 4000hrs with the 117. The Ej200 and m88 are 30+ year old engines and got 6000hrs service life.


117S is what powered Su-35 it have 4000h service life, it use similar core as AL-31F. 117 is what power Su-57 isn't clear what engine it is based on. For example in Zvezda documentary about Su-57, engine constructor clearly say it isn't 117S. So it could be 117 is scaled down AL-41, Soviet F119.


From what ive read, the 117 is a 117s modified for use in the Su57.
Propobly has even worse reliability than the 117s since its tuned up for slightly more power. One of Indias complaints before bailing the Su57 was that its engines were extremely unreliable. If they get the project 30 engines to work than maybe they are as reliable as the current european engines.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 05 Jan 2020, 14:46
by mixelflick
vilters wrote:800 Eurocanards?
The counter stops well below 400.

Combat ready?
About 75 on a good day with lots of Sunshine.


I'm no expert in this regard, but I thought 800 sounded high too. But about the Tempest... even if it could be done, I don't think its really necessary. The backbone of the Russian fleet for years to come will be upgraded SU-27SM2's and 3's, along with a smaller number of SU-35's. I see nothing in that mix that can challenge the F-35, so question whether Tempest is needed at all.

And even if Russia procures all 76 SU-57's, those will be too little and too late. With no over-arching threat to justify its existence, Tempest is dead in the water..

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 05 Jan 2020, 17:46
by vilters
Russia has the same issues we do.

Even if they build all the 76?
How many can they get to fly? And how many are they going to get combat ready?
Then add long term sustainability and you have your answer.

Russia can talk, Russia can bark, but that's about it.

With all of Europes F-35 in the order books, Europe does not need something "new" for the next 30 years or so.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 05 Jan 2020, 18:01
by irt
vilters wrote:Russia has the same issues we do.

Even if they build all the 76?
How many can they get to fly? And how many are they going to get combat ready?
Then add long term sustainability and you have your answer.

Russia can talk, Russia can bark, but that's about it.

With all of Europes F-35 in the order books, Europe does not need something "new" for the next 30 years or so.


Then why are u sayin European nations should buy more US stuff and scrap their own industry if we now all of a sudden dosnt need any at all?

These new planes are made to replace the Eurocanards, not the F35. These planes are planed for delivery after 2040.. So there wont be any squadrons with new planes flying within 25 years from now. Maybe by then the russians are able to build better planes.. Or maybe buying the newest chineese stuff by then. Who knows..

And the issue with luftwaffe was lack of funding, ie political. Nothing stops the germans to spend more money and increasing the readieness of their fighters if they wanted to. The reddines issue would have been the same if they flew F35 too. I think the situation is better now for luftwaffe tho.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 05 Jan 2020, 22:00
by irt
mixelflick wrote:
vilters wrote:800 Eurocanards?
The counter stops well below 400.

Combat ready?
About 75 on a good day with lots of Sunshine.


I'm no expert in this regard, but I thought 800 sounded high too. But about the Tempest... even if it could be done, I don't think its really necessary. The backbone of the Russian fleet for years to come will be upgraded SU-27SM2's and 3's, along with a smaller number of SU-35's. I see nothing in that mix that can challenge the F-35, so question whether Tempest is needed at all.

And even if Russia procures all 76 SU-57's, those will be too little and too late. With no over-arching threat to justify its existence, Tempest is dead in the water..


There is nothing in that mix that can really challage the Eurocanards either so the F35 isnt needed either. If EU planed to
conduct airstrikes on moscow or something then sure the F35 would be a great asset, but i dont see that happen.

The big questions is what the russians replace their su27/35 fleet with in the future. When their next fighter, made in Russia or imported from China, enter service thats when FCAS and Tempest are needed.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 05 Jan 2020, 22:37
by vilters
@ irt

Europe can build whatever they want whenever they want. But :

Let them try to keep the total cost / airplane below 75 Mil Dollar. => That is what an F-35 cost.

They have to devide the R&D between 200 airframes while the US can devide R&D between 3.000 airframes.
Then try to calculate what spare parts are going to cost to keep the fleet for 50 years between 200 and 3.000 airplanes.

The US can devide each engine, avionix weapons upgrade by 3.000.
I chalenge Europe to do better.

You are NEVER gonna build and sell something 5-6th gen below the US costs.

PS ; and for your info, I am Belgian-Europe.

And, last but not least. Europe has to start from NOTHING while the US has 30 years of combat proven stealth experience.

The moment Europe Air Forces are going to start USING their F-35 both Rafale and Tiffy will become more and more obsolete by the minute.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 06 Jan 2020, 04:37
by Corsair1963
vilters wrote:@ irt

Europe can build whatever they want whenever they want. But :

Let them try to keep the total cost / airplane below 75 Mil Dollar. => That is what an F-35 cost.

They have to devide the R&D between 200 airframes while the US can devide R&D between 3.000 airframes.
Then try to calculate what spare parts are going to cost to keep the fleet for 50 years between 200 and 3.000 airplanes.

The US can devide each engine, avionix weapons upgrade by 3.000.
I chalenge Europe to do better.

You are NEVER gonna build and sell something 5-6th gen below the US costs.

PS ; and for your info, I am Belgian-Europe.

And, last but not least. Europe has to start from NOTHING while the US has 30 years of combat proven stealth experience.

The moment Europe Air Forces are going to start USING their F-35 both Rafale and Tiffy will become more and more obsolete by the minute.


All excellent points.....Honestly, appears Europe is repeating the same mistakes. That they made with the Euro Fighter and Rafale Programs.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 06 Jan 2020, 04:40
by Corsair1963
irt wrote:
mixelflick wrote:
vilters wrote:800 Eurocanards?
The counter stops well below 400.

Combat ready?
About 75 on a good day with lots of Sunshine.


I'm no expert in this regard, but I thought 800 sounded high too. But about the Tempest... even if it could be done, I don't think its really necessary. The backbone of the Russian fleet for years to come will be upgraded SU-27SM2's and 3's, along with a smaller number of SU-35's. I see nothing in that mix that can challenge the F-35, so question whether Tempest is needed at all.

And even if Russia procures all 76 SU-57's, those will be too little and too late. With no over-arching threat to justify its existence, Tempest is dead in the water..


There is nothing in that mix that can really challage the Eurocanards either so the F35 isnt needed either. If EU planed to
conduct airstrikes on moscow or something then sure the F35 would be a great asset, but i dont see that happen.

The big questions is what the russians replace their su27/35 fleet with in the future. When their next fighter, made in Russia or imported from China, enter service thats when FCAS and Tempest are needed.


The Tempest and FCAS are needed. In order to keep Europe in the Fighter Market. Otherwise, they will become a minor player or forced to rely solely on the US for protection.

Plus, even from an American Perspective "Competition" is good.... :wink:

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 06 Jan 2020, 14:06
by mixelflick
irt wrote:
mixelflick wrote:
vilters wrote:800 Eurocanards?
The counter stops well below 400.

Combat ready?
About 75 on a good day with lots of Sunshine.


I'm no expert in this regard, but I thought 800 sounded high too. But about the Tempest... even if it could be done, I don't think its really necessary. The backbone of the Russian fleet for years to come will be upgraded SU-27SM2's and 3's, along with a smaller number of SU-35's. I see nothing in that mix that can challenge the F-35, so question whether Tempest is needed at all.

And even if Russia procures all 76 SU-57's, those will be too little and too late. With no over-arching threat to justify its existence, Tempest is dead in the water..


There is nothing in that mix that can really challage the Eurocanards either so the F35 isnt needed either. If EU planed to
conduct airstrikes on moscow or something then sure the F35 would be a great asset, but i dont see that happen.

The big questions is what the russians replace their su27/35 fleet with in the future. When their next fighter, made in Russia or imported from China, enter service thats when FCAS and Tempest are needed.


Some flaws here in your argument...

First, advanced SU-27SM2's and 3's along with the SU-35 are nothing to sneeze at. They are closer in parity to Eurocanards than you're giving them credit for. There's certainly no clear, overwhelming advantage conveyed by European fighters as seen with the F-35.

Second, what will all of the NATO countries currently flying F-16's replace them with? Their choices are quite limited. New build F-16's/18's along with new Gripens/Rafale/Typhoon's all currently cost much more than the F-35, while considerably less capable. We're at under $78 million/copy now for an F-35A, and the cost is only going down. So yes, EU/NATO nations will most certainly need the F-35 to replace their current fighter fleets.

Russia will field nothing en masse that's anywhere near as capable as an F-35. I'd even go so far as to say they'll field nothing period, nevermind mass produced. Thus, there is no need for the FAS/Tempest - unless you consider them as an exercise in national pride.

Which is all well and good. It's their own money they're wasting..

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 06 Jan 2020, 14:12
by vilters
As far as fighter building goes? Europe does not exist.

France, Germany, Italy, Sweden, the UK, all are individuals protecting their own industry when it comes to "Fighter building".
Each wants the largest piece of the cake. So, after extremely long and expensive talks, nothing "combined" happens.
Example => The split resulting in Tiffy - Rafale.

The Tornado that had to so many things, it is good at nothing.
The AM400 => Each regretting to buy C-130J.
The overweight unreliable helicopters.

Then try to export from Europe. LOL. With each having the right to veto? Forget export from a "combined Europe".

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 06 Jan 2020, 16:34
by madrat
The UK might be better suited for a Rolls-Royce coop agreement with GE to build F136 for F-35UK's. If they really want a twin-engine option then guide them into the camp of one of our programs that is much more economically feasible. A minor partnership in an American effort with options to increase participation in the future is a better long term investment.

The US needs to sate the UK populism to further weaken Labour. Maybe even lease them a baker's dozen B-52 or future B-21 to meet their nuclear deterrent commitments. Maybe they could be seeking more long range sealane control where B-52 or B-1B would be inviting. Something to keep them from chasing down a rabbit hole that only benefits Turkey or one of their other Gulf partners that has been inconveniently undermining their national interests with bad agreements brokered through the Labour party. A strong UK devoid of leftism is good for both sides of the pond.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 06 Jan 2020, 17:09
by madrat
mixelflick wrote:
Some flaws here in your argument...

First, advanced SU-27SM2's and 3's along with the SU-35 are nothing to sneeze at. They are closer in parity to Eurocanards than you're giving them credit for. There's certainly no clear, overwhelming advantage conveyed by European fighters as seen with the F-35.

Second, what will all of the NATO countries currently flying F-16's replace them with? Their choices are quite limited. New build F-16's/18's along with new Gripens/Rafale/Typhoon's all currently cost much more than the F-35, while considerably less capable. We're at under $78 million/copy now for an F-35A, and the cost is only going down. So yes, EU/NATO nations will most certainly need the F-35 to replace their current fighter fleets.

Russia will field nothing en masse that's anywhere near as capable as an F-35. I'd even go so far as to say they'll field nothing period, nevermind mass produced. Thus, there is no need for the FAS/Tempest - unless you consider them as an exercise in national pride.

Which is all well and good. It's their own money they're wasting.

The second point is pretty solid. The waste of resources is the undermining of their society by the international coalition that encourages western countries to open their borders and to pay for the immigrants with welfare and free healthcare. These are outsiders dictating these ideals. They've spent four decades allowing the BBC to get overrun with rats that are dictating destruction of their own society. The generation divide isn't near as wide as the BBC paints it and populism elected BoJo for a reason. It is no coincidence that the UK quickly moved in unison with the US after taking out the Iranian general.

The first point is not so clear. Europe is pretty well equipped to handle any Russian threats. The only problem is the weakening of the governments under the strain of these external political pressures. People didn't suddenly wake up to socialism, it has been shoved down their throats and they finally found their voice to resist. It wasn't like the people ever believed these policies were good for them. Removing the burdens of socialism on the UK would offer significant relief to the government. They would need to reassert control over the BBC to control the narrative again. The UK government could start doing policy again that strengthens their borders.

The Typhoon started off as a program to strengthen the UK, but actual implementation was used to promote exactly the opposite. Partner nations all negotiated for self interests and the lack of leadership unwound any benefit to the members. If nothing else the program turned into a dwindling stream of funds getting work done while budgets continued to feed the money pit.

The Typhoon is a derelict survivor of these Labour policies. Money thrown at it only led to further misery and less results while Labour supporters got rich. Typhoon is so tainted it only needs to be abandoned and better options moved on immediately. The other Typhoon partners will quickly follow suit with abandoning ship. The US can help the new government make a sixth generation option for the UK happen that is zero benefit to other governments undermining the UK. And it should make it happen.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 06 Jan 2020, 18:07
by milosh
Any project (Franco German or British Sweden) would need one big foreign partner to be viable.

Franco German project could get India in mix, while British Sweden one I don't see how they can bring in mix.

So with Indians, EU 6gen fighter can be viable.

Russian danger is irrelevant for those programs because Russia is on defensive so getting new fighter because "Russians are coming" is nonsense. Also EU is biggest Russian market attacking your biggest market isn't smart thing to do.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 06 Jan 2020, 18:50
by sprstdlyscottsmn
milosh wrote: because "Russians are coming" is nonsense..


With all due respect, I think the Ukrainians would disagree.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 07 Jan 2020, 00:24
by awsome
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
milosh wrote: because "Russians are coming" is nonsense..


With all due respect, I think the Ukrainians would disagree.



Sure but I think their new president gets it that it is a bad idea to try to genocide the ethnically Russian portion of Ukraine and he is in talks to reverse that failed policy....

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 07 Jan 2020, 00:24
by marsavian
vilters wrote:As far as fighter building goes? Europe does not exist.

France, Germany, Italy, Sweden, the UK, all are individuals protecting their own industry when it comes to "Fighter building".
Each wants the largest piece of the cake. So, after extremely long and expensive talks, nothing "combined" happens.
Example => The split resulting in Tiffy - Rafale.

Then try to export from Europe. LOL. With each having the right to veto? Forget export from a "combined Europe".


I suspect these two new European consortiums are more naturally organically driven together than the Typhoon/Rafale where both France and UK built demonstrators and both would not compromise on the lead design role forcing the others to choose sides. With NGF France has been allowed the design role with Germany providing engineering support along with Spain. With Tempest it's a UK lead role by initiative providing the airframe and engines with Italy/Sweden providing the sensors. Everybody is provided their area of expertise in both consortiums so less chance of argument and disagreement. They both could build viable fighters but my only concern is how 5th gen will both fighters be in reality, is there enough expertise in each to produce a good effective rival to the F-35 or will they only end up producing 4.75 gen fighters with very modern sensors. Time will tell but I suspect both will be built to schedule and on time but how good they both will be is the big unknown.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 07 Jan 2020, 00:37
by milosh
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
milosh wrote: because "Russians are coming" is nonsense..


With all due respect, I think the Ukrainians would disagree.


Sadly for Ukraine they aren't Russian important market, EU is.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 07 Jan 2020, 17:27
by babybat{}.net
milosh wrote:Sadly for Ukraine they aren't Russian important market, EU is.


In 2013 (Before the conflict) Ukraine was 4.5% of Russian export..
Even now it is 2.1% which is comparable to Japan or India..
So it's still important market..

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 12 Jan 2020, 11:48
by citanon
https://newatlas.com/military/rolls-roy ... t-fighter/

Rolls-Royce developing advanced jet engine to power Tempest fighter

Image

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 13 Jan 2020, 04:43
by Corsair1963
quote="citanon"

Rolls-Royce developing advanced jet engine to power Tempest fighter



Clearly, an Adaptive Cycle Engine similar to the GE XA100 and P&W XA101.... :wink:

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 13 Jan 2020, 08:44
by citanon
Corsair1963 wrote:
quote="citanon"

Rolls-Royce developing advanced jet engine to power Tempest fighter



Clearly, an Adaptive Cycle Engine similar to the GE XA100 and P&W XA101.... :wink:


Not quite sure. There appears to be some ideas there that are interestingly different:

At its core, it features an electrical starter-generator that was fully embedded in the core of a gas turbine engine that began life in 2014 as the Embedded Electrical Starter Generator (E2SG) demonstrator program, and takes a new approach to fighter design that places much more emphasis on providing electrical power in large quantities directly from the engine.

"The electrical embedded starter-generator will save space and provide the large amount of electrical power required by future fighters," says Conrad Banks, Chief Engineer for Future Programmes at Rolls-Royce. "Existing aircraft engines generate power through a gearbox underneath the engine, which drives a generator. In addition to adding moving parts and complexity, the space required outside the engine for the gearbox and generator makes the airframe larger, which is undesirable in a stealthy platform."


They also talk about a new energy storage system and an intelligent engine management system to balance power loads.

All this are aimed at giving unprecedented electrical power.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 13 Jan 2020, 09:14
by Corsair1963
citanon wrote:
At its core, it features an electrical starter-generator that was fully embedded in the core of a gas turbine engine that began life in 2014 as the Embedded Electrical Starter Generator (E2SG) demonstrator program, and takes a new approach to fighter design that places much more emphasis on providing electrical power in large quantities directly from the engine.

"The electrical embedded starter-generator will save space and provide the large amount of electrical power required by future fighters," says Conrad Banks, Chief Engineer for Future Programmes at Rolls-Royce. "Existing aircraft engines generate power through a gearbox underneath the engine, which drives a generator. In addition to adding moving parts and complexity, the space required outside the engine for the gearbox and generator makes the airframe larger, which is undesirable in a stealthy platform."


They also talk about a new energy storage system and an intelligent engine management system to balance power loads.

All this are aimed at giving unprecedented electrical power.


Look at the picture and look at the core technology. Especially, the "Fan Technology" column....

Fan technologies
* Advanced composite
* Controllable 3rd stream bleed
* Lightweight aerodynamically optimised fan
* Temperature resistant lightweight composite materials

Sounds and looks very much like an "Adaptive Cycle Engine" to me.... :)

Respectfully

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 13 Jan 2020, 17:53
by irt
vilters wrote:@ irt

Europe can build whatever they want whenever they want. But :

Let them try to keep the total cost / airplane below 75 Mil Dollar. => That is what an F-35 cost.

They have to devide the R&D between 200 airframes while the US can devide R&D between 3.000 airframes.
Then try to calculate what spare parts are going to cost to keep the fleet for 50 years between 200 and 3.000 airplanes.

The US can devide each engine, avionix weapons upgrade by 3.000.
I chalenge Europe to do better.

You are NEVER gonna build and sell something 5-6th gen below the US costs.

PS ; and for your info, I am Belgian-Europe.

And, last but not least. Europe has to start from NOTHING while the US has 30 years of combat proven stealth experience.

The moment Europe Air Forces are going to start USING their F-35 both Rafale and Tiffy will become more and more obsolete by the minute.


$75 mil a plane? Someone needs to tell Poland then cuz they are paying $6.5 billion for an F35 "starter kit" and 32 airframes.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 27 Jan 2020, 08:01
by kimjongnumbaun
irt wrote:$75 mil a plane? Someone needs to tell Poland then cuz they are paying $6.5 billion for an F35 "starter kit" and 32 airframes.


I don't think you understand what fly away costs are.

Re: UK next gen fighter

Unread postPosted: 18 Feb 2020, 23:25
by marsavian
Tempest: Building The Fighter Jet Of The Future

https://www.forces.net/news/tempest-bui ... jet-future