UK next gen fighter

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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marsavian

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Unread post01 Jan 2020, 15:33

Ambitious Tempest fighter jet programme to accelerate in 2020

International companies will double UK recruitment as they race to finalise business case

https://amp.ft.com/content/64011a42-28d ... 4e74b0ef3#

The UK’s ambitious plans to develop a next generation stealth fighter jet are to accelerate in the coming 12 months, with the four international companies leading the programme preparing to step up recruitment as they race to finalise a business case for the project.

The four founding partners of the Tempest programme — BAE Systems; the UK arm of Leonardo of Italy; MBDA, the European missile maker; and Rolls-Royce — have until December 2020 to complete their analysis of a programme critical to the future of Britain’s combat air capabilities.

“We have to give the government confidence we are working towards a viable international partnership,” said Andrew Kennedy, strategic campaigns director in BAE Systems’ Air division. “They have to be confident we are doing something that will be affordable, capable and delivered on time.”

To meet the deadline, the companies plan to more than double the total UK workforce involved in the project from the current 1,000 to 2,500 by 2021.

The acceleration of the Tempest programme comes as the UK prepares to carry out a sweeping defence review which will consider the UK’s diplomatic and military place in the world after Brexit.

But with the Ministry of Defence facing a £15bn shortfall in its equipment budget over the next decade, the review will also look at ways the British armed forces can reduce costs.

Tempest is the centrepiece of Britain’s combat air strategy and designed to underline the country’s intention to retain its cutting-edge expertise in spite of Brexit, after being left out of a rival Franco-German future fighter project.

It will eventually replace the Eurofighter Typhoon, which will start to be retired from Royal Air Force service in about 2040, and will complement the US made F-35 stealth fighter jet.

The companies developing Tempest aim to devise a business case that delivers a cutting-edge combat air system — which may include not just advanced weapons but deployable drones — in about half the 20 years it took to take Typhoon from the concept phase to operational service.

“To get this number [of jobs] this early — that is pretty significant,” said Francis Tusa, editor of Defence Analysis. “If you went back to the early 2000s, BAE Systems would have had 3,000 people working on Typhoon. But at this stage of game, to have 2,500 research engineers — that is big.”

The Tempest project was unveiled in the summer of 2018 with initial funding of £2bn-a-year following a decision by France and Germany to leave the UK out of its future fighter jet programme.

Since then, Italy and Sweden have joined the UK project, while Spain has committed to the Franco-German fighter.

Both programmes have continued independently, although many experts believe that they will eventually have to converge. There are questions over whether the UK can afford such an ambitious programme given the funding shortfall in the MoD’s equipment plan and concerns over next year’s budget.

Executives involved in both projects have privately admitted that eventually there will be pressure to merge. However, the longer the two projects continue, the harder it may be to integrate them. “Both sides are very much on their paths,” said one person close to the UK project.

Another senior UK executive said his company had no intention of accepting a secondary role in a project led by Dassault for France and Airbus for Germany, with Safran and MTU collaborating on the propulsion system.

Tempest is considered vital to secure the future of the UK’s £6bn-a-year combat air sector, which has made up more than 80 per cent of the country’s defence exports over the past decade.

“Team Tempest will ensure the UK has the capability to sit at the top table in an international collaborative programme,” said Mr Kennedy.

When the project was launched, the government prioritised international partnerships both to reduce costs and to open up new export markets.

But the collaboration was being done differently than in the past, according to Mr Kennedy. The initial phase of the project was not about sharing out work between partners but “how we will work in the future . . . It is about how to develop capabilities quicker”, he said.

The French and German teams, meanwhile, are determined to limit participation in the first phase of their project, when capabilities are identified, responsibilities are sketched out and work begins on a demonstrator.

“If we open the door to the British, the Scandinavians, the Italians, we will do another 400M and it will be a disaster,” said one executive involved in the Franco-German project. “Every time you add one new partner you multiply the cost by two or three. Everybody wants to impose some specs, which is understandable, but when you build something where five, six or seven people are happy, you build a monster.”

However, the Franco-German project has also been beset by tensions, in particular over the leadership of the engine programme. France’s spending bill for 2020, passed this month in the Senate, raised concerns that the project could be at risk due to serious disagreements between the French and German industrial partners. In early December Safran of France and MTU of Germany reached agreement on a division of responsibilities for the design development and servicing of propulsion system.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post01 Jan 2020, 23:42

Actually, the US maybe wise to hold off a little on developing a 6th Generation Fighter. Just as it did with the F-22/F-35 vs Rafale/Typhoon.

Which, would allow it to maintain it's advantage.... :|
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marsavian

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Unread post02 Jan 2020, 00:05

The US is allegedly developing a 6th gen fighter/bomber at the slow pace required for the technology to mature, i.e. the hypersonic SR-72. However it will still probably beat these laggard European 5th gens into production ;).
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Unread post02 Jan 2020, 15:02

Let us look in the mirror; We are too late.
Europe missed the 5th Generation stealth fighter and sensor fusion capabilities integration completely.
We arent even close to the Chinese these days.

And the US is already in the study / prototype phase of a 6th Generation.


the tech capability list / order is as follows.

1 USA
2 Chinese
3 Russia
4 (and a distant 4) is Europe

Why? We continue to fight internally and that prevents moving forward.

And we are doing it again: Germany/France on one side and the UK on the other.

The longer we continue this internal fight / Bullshit, the more we will drop behind.

Edited for the market:

The UK and the ex-F-16 market already decided to go F-35. Every country involved has airframes or signed contracts.

Who on planet Earth is (( ahum )) "Europe" going to build planes for? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

And an answer like : To keep the Industry going is (again) bullshit.
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madrat

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Unread post02 Jan 2020, 20:39

Your list is unfounded speculation.
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marsavian

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Unread post02 Jan 2020, 21:30

vilters wrote:Who on planet Earth is (( ahum )) "Europe" going to build planes for?


Themselves and the Middle East/India etc, i.e. current Typhoon/Rafale buyers who won't be getting F-35 any time soon due to politics.
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knowan

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Unread post03 Jan 2020, 12:08

vilters wrote:And an answer like : To keep the Industry going is (again) bullshit.


There are legitimate strategic reasons to produce unnecessary military equipment in order to retain the related industries.

It's expensive, but it is much less expensive than trying to produce the equipment when it is needed and there isn't an existing industry.
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Unread post03 Jan 2020, 12:36

There is NO speculation in that list.

The USA is a collection of states all working together.
China is under strickt central control.
Russia is Russia and will Always be Russia

Europe on the other hand is a collection of individual countries, all trying to protect individual industries.

Europe is a "wet dream" (mostly from crying).

What are we aiming for?
The next AM400 disaster?
Or the next generation of overweight helicopters?
On top of the previous failure? The Tornado?
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Unread post03 Jan 2020, 15:17

I don't know that I'd categorize the Tornado as a disaster. More along the lines of the F-111, which suffered a protracted development period but ultimately resulted in a very useful tactical bomber. Few would argue that the Typhoon isn't a potent fighter, perhaps the best in the West after the Raptor (at least until the F-35 got here).

The problem with the eurocanards was timing: They came online just prior to 5th gen aircraft changing the scene. Though Typhoon largely achieved its objectives, it didn't do so in overwhelming fashion. Which means its competitive advantage was short lived, and is increasingly eroded as each day ticks by.

Having said all of that, I don't see this Tempest thing ever coming to fruition. Too much money, too many cooks will ultimately appear in the kitchen and jumping from 4++ gen aircraft to a world beating 6th isn't likely. I think the UK just needs to swallow its national pride and buy more US aircraft. That's true almost everywhere else you look too. Look at the Indian attempt to build a light strike fighter (Tejas). I don't expect Japan's or S. Korea's attempt at buildng a stealth fighter to turn out any different, either..
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Unread post03 Jan 2020, 22:07

The problem for everybody is final cost per airframe and the US can devide F-35 R&D costs over +/- 3.000 airframes.

If the UK, or France, or Germany, or Japan, or Korea, or Turkey builds a "next gen" ?
How many are they going to build, and at what final unit cost?

It is for all practical reasons impossible to compete with the USA the next few decades.

And tech wise?
The US has the stealth experience starting with U2, SR-72, F-117, F-22, F-35 and B2.

Europe has a blanco sheet. Yeah, a million national and international discussions, but nothing flying to show for.

Tiffy and Rafale belong to the top of the bill 4th gen, but that's about it.
And even with those and comparing costs/airframe Tiffy and Rafale to the F-35 you are nowhere even close.

Russia, China and India each have their own market.
Their biggest problem is internal corruption.
Lots of investments but little of that money actually arrives on the working floor.

Completely agree with mixelflick ; "Europe" has to swallow its pride and buy USA airframes.
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irt

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Unread post03 Jan 2020, 23:05

vilters wrote:Let us look in the mirror; We are too late.
Europe missed the 5th Generation stealth fighter and sensor fusion capabilities integration completely.
We arent even close to the Chinese these days.

And the US is already in the study / prototype phase of a 6th Generation.


the tech capability list / order is as follows.

1 USA
2 Chinese
3 Russia
4 (and a distant 4) is Europe

Why? We continue to fight internally and that prevents moving forward.

And we are doing it again: Germany/France on one side and the UK on the other.

The longer we continue this internal fight / Bullshit, the more we will drop behind.

Edited for the market:

The UK and the ex-F-16 market already decided to go F-35. Every country involved has airframes or signed contracts.

Who on planet Earth is (( ahum )) "Europe" going to build planes for? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

And an answer like : To keep the Industry going is (again) bullshit.


Are you high or something?

Europe never had any plans for a 5th gen plane.
The canards were built to counter the soviets latest planes and
they did. Still to this day the Russians aint got nothing flying thats even close to any of the european fighters. And before you say something, the Su57 is a big joke, just like all the F35 fanboys are saying.

U think Russia and China has better tech capability than Europe?
Neither Russia or China cant even build an engine that matches the EJ or snecma engines developed in the 80's. Their newest planes still fly with uppgraded su27 engines. Still inferior to any of the european engines. As far as I know the russians havnt even fielded any AESA radars in any of their fighter jets. China claims alot, and the J20 look way more serious than the Su57 but still doubt they beat the europeans in military tech.

Uk went F35 cus they needed a Harrier replacement for the new aircraft carriers, they never had any plans to replace Typhoon with the F35.

Europe build planes for themselves, and that way they can get them as they want them. Yes US is planing for 6th gen, are they gonna let NATO or EU allies buy those planes if they want to? Or develop it in cooperation with the European nations? No way, just like the F22. The US dont even trust its closest NATO allies to buy its best planes, so why shuld the European nations scrap their own aviation industry and trust the US to supply them with what they want and need? And whatever the new European jets turn out to be, they will be way better than anything the Ruskies will be able to produce.
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Unread post04 Jan 2020, 09:38

irt wrote:U think Russia and China has better tech capability than Europe?
Neither Russia or China cant even build an engine that matches the EJ or snecma engines developed in the 80's. Their newest planes still fly with uppgraded su27 engines. Still inferior to any of the european engines. As far as I know the russians havnt even fielded any AESA radars in any of their fighter jets. China claims alot, and the J20 look way more serious than the Su57 but still doubt they beat the europeans in military tech.


117 isn't AL-31F. 117 have new core, new ignition system (one of kind in world), new nozzle (at least later ones) and new FADEC.

Su-57 and J-20 both carry weapons internally compared to canards which carry them externally, both carry huge ammount of fuel so no need for external fuel tanks which are common thing on canards. So they are vlo or much easier to became vlo then canards.

Europe have tech that isn't question but what Europe don't have is consensus, so Germany and France will try to build new fighter, France would like to sell fighter to Saudis which could use it against neighbors and Germans would say no and then program would be dead.

Brits on other side don't have any big partner so they would make Tempest just for themselves so price would be astronomical.
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irt

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Unread post04 Jan 2020, 16:17

milosh wrote:
irt wrote:U think Russia and China has better tech capability than Europe?
Neither Russia or China cant even build an engine that matches the EJ or snecma engines developed in the 80's. Their newest planes still fly with uppgraded su27 engines. Still inferior to any of the european engines. As far as I know the russians havnt even fielded any AESA radars in any of their fighter jets. China claims alot, and the J20 look way more serious than the Su57 but still doubt they beat the europeans in military tech.


117 isn't AL-31F. 117 have new core, new ignition system (one of kind in world), new nozzle (at least later ones) and new FADEC.

Su-57 and J-20 both carry weapons internally compared to canards which carry them externally, both carry huge ammount of fuel so no need for external fuel tanks which are common thing on canards. So even if you don't take in account RCS they are lot more potent then canards.

Europe have tech that isn't question but what Europe don't have is consensus, so Germany and France will try to build new fighter, France would like to sell fighter to Saudis which could use it against neighbors and Germans would say no and then program would be dead.

Brits on other side don't have any big partner so they would make Tempest just for themselves so price would be astronomical.


LOL that clown claimed that Europe was at the same military tech level as India, and that Russia and China is waaaay ahead lol.

Russia is the military threat to the European nations, not China. The Su57 carry weapons internaly sure, but its overall build quallity, and stealth level is nowhere close to beeing a Vlo design like F35 or F22. Then there is big doubts about the quallity of the russian avionics in general. Then they will build a grand total of 76 of them in 10 years time. The bulk of their fighter force will still be legacy Su27 derivates in 2030.

The 117 is the best they got, and its reliability is way behind the European engines. An AL-31F is thrash after 2000hrs, they managed to bump that number to 4000hrs with the 117. The Ej200 and m88 are 30+ year old engines and got 6000hrs service life.

There are what? 800 eurocanards in europe that will need to be replaced after 2040. If the Britts/Italians/Swedes or France/Germans/Spanish build fighters with beter kinematic Performance than the F35 and more towards the air superiority role
Im sure there are potential for them in the export market.
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Unread post04 Jan 2020, 17:22

800 Eurocanards?
The counter stops well below 400.

Combat ready?
About 75 on a good day with lots of Sunshine.
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irt

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Unread post04 Jan 2020, 17:25

vilters wrote:800 Eurocanards?
The counter stops well below 400.

Combat ready?
About 75 on a good day with lots of Sunshine.


Ok....
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