SU-57 deployed to Syria
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awsome wrote:So after 23 pages of "who has the only 5th gen aircraft in Syria", it turns out it doesn't matter. The Russians won anyways...
What exactly have they “won?”
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knowan wrote:icemaverick wrote:awsome wrote:So after 23 pages of "who has the only 5th gen aircraft in Syria", it turns out it doesn't matter. The Russians won anyways...
What exactly have they “won?”
A $250 billion+ bill to rebuild Syria.
Everybody who was involved in Syria wanted something. To say otherwise now is a bit like saying this game is stupid, taking your ball and going home just because you are losing. As far as the whole issue of stealth fighters it seems it takes something else other than just technological or even military superiority to win. After so much mocking of Russia's stalled SU 57 program it turns out it just doesn't matter... yet.
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IMO, the sole reason the SU-57 deployed to Syria was a last ditch effort to keep Indian interest in the program. And on that score, it failed miserably.
They did gain some valuable experience with their various Flanker derivatives, especially the SU-30 and SU-35. As Russia's front line fighters, they needed to find out where the last few bugs were. Granted, there weren't any air to air "kills", but those assets were flying and fighting in the same airspace as US 4th and 5th gens. They had to have learned something.
With respect to weapons, their lack of sophistication was glaring. Most dumb bombs being dropped, and a lot more R-27's carried vs. R-77's.
In regards to the SU-57, their lack of air to air weapon miniaturization is really hurting them. Those big, honking fins on most of their birds severely limits the number that can be carried internally, and I'm not buying that picture of 6 R-77's in its weapons bay. Someday perhaps, but not now. If weapons testing had flushed out a 6 R-77 capability, you can bet we'd be seeing many more, higher quality pics. And all this talk about AAM's with a range of 200, 300km or more AWACS/Tanker killers is just that, talk. The only carriage for those would be external, worsening its already marginal stealth properties.
Beautiful piece of engineering though, I really like its looks (first 3/4 of the aircraft anyway). It falls apart toward the rear though. Almost looks like they gave up LOL.
They did gain some valuable experience with their various Flanker derivatives, especially the SU-30 and SU-35. As Russia's front line fighters, they needed to find out where the last few bugs were. Granted, there weren't any air to air "kills", but those assets were flying and fighting in the same airspace as US 4th and 5th gens. They had to have learned something.
With respect to weapons, their lack of sophistication was glaring. Most dumb bombs being dropped, and a lot more R-27's carried vs. R-77's.
In regards to the SU-57, their lack of air to air weapon miniaturization is really hurting them. Those big, honking fins on most of their birds severely limits the number that can be carried internally, and I'm not buying that picture of 6 R-77's in its weapons bay. Someday perhaps, but not now. If weapons testing had flushed out a 6 R-77 capability, you can bet we'd be seeing many more, higher quality pics. And all this talk about AAM's with a range of 200, 300km or more AWACS/Tanker killers is just that, talk. The only carriage for those would be external, worsening its already marginal stealth properties.
Beautiful piece of engineering though, I really like its looks (first 3/4 of the aircraft anyway). It falls apart toward the rear though. Almost looks like they gave up LOL.
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They went in with their Su-57 because nobody can see a stealth aircraft.
Then they where "seen".
Oeps ! !
"Bug out", "Bug out", "Bug out". And home they went.
Please Ruskies : Next time paint them in Pepsi colors.
That way we might even get a smile out of the Su-57, when their pilots turn Green.
=> The US in Red Coca and the Ruskies in Pepsi blue colors. LOL. => Hey, that's a good one for airshows.
PS; Coca is still better then Pepsi.
Then they where "seen".
Oeps ! !
"Bug out", "Bug out", "Bug out". And home they went.
Please Ruskies : Next time paint them in Pepsi colors.
That way we might even get a smile out of the Su-57, when their pilots turn Green.
=> The US in Red Coca and the Ruskies in Pepsi blue colors. LOL. => Hey, that's a good one for airshows.
PS; Coca is still better then Pepsi.
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Seems like the only thing the PAKFA is good at is appearing for photo ops. The PAKFA is like that "celebrity" that hasn't done ANYTHING notable but will do anything to appear in a photo op to appear relevant and famous. All the while Russian state controlled media is the publicist...
PAKFA - LOOK AT ME! Got a new paint job and I'm flying low over some crowd somewhere
Russian State Media - Look at how relevant and high tech it is. It hasn't done anything as of yet but its day is bound to come well after 2020. We have plenty more photo sessions to attend to before the PAKFA finally does something.
PAKFA - LOOK AT ME! Got a new paint job and I'm flying low over some crowd somewhere
Russian State Media - Look at how relevant and high tech it is. It hasn't done anything as of yet but its day is bound to come well after 2020. We have plenty more photo sessions to attend to before the PAKFA finally does something.
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The 3F equivalent production version of Su-57 with new engines, full stealth/avionics/weapons probably won't appear until about 2025 which is about 20 years after the fighter it was meant to counter, F-22, arrived which will be in MLU condition then. Over the totality of conventional and nuclear forces Russia probably gets the most bang for buck of any nation however they really dropped the ball on stealth aircraft and they have been looking at Western stealth aircraft for a long time now ever since the F-117 which apparently the Su-57 is not as stealthy as which is very poor on their part.
Their main stealth PR strategy now is to pretend to all their sycophants that Western stealth aircraft are not as stealthy as claimed which I suppose when you have been totally outcompeted is all you have left. The practical effect of this stealth deficiency is that foreign buyers of Russian military aircraft will be at a power projection disadvantage and indeed Russia itself but then it always has its nuclear deterrent to fall back on unlike its allies.
Their main stealth PR strategy now is to pretend to all their sycophants that Western stealth aircraft are not as stealthy as claimed which I suppose when you have been totally outcompeted is all you have left. The practical effect of this stealth deficiency is that foreign buyers of Russian military aircraft will be at a power projection disadvantage and indeed Russia itself but then it always has its nuclear deterrent to fall back on unlike its allies.
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Very good points all around. I don't think it ends well for the SU-57. Best case scenario Russia orders 50-75 and they're done. Even assuming they get it working, its stealth will be (to use APA's terminology), "double inferior" to the F-22's/F-35. It will exist in that rare area between a clean SH/Typhoon and the F-117.
The price tag for such a low production run is going to be astronomical. The logistics will be a nightmare, and its ability to project power will be limited b/c the F-35 is proliferating everywhere. Even in Syria, it was flying with Israeli F-35's and American F-22's... which if things got hot would have = 2/4 less SU-57's the Kremlin had at its disposal.
I don't know how they fell so far behind... they otherwise made a nice comeback with the Mig-29/SU-27. Their mistake was developing a "heavy" stealth fighter, vs the LMFS. Of course, they would have run into the same problems, but at least they may have been able to produce them in quantity. Provided they weren't fighting American 5th gen jets, the LMFS may have made a measurable impact, particularly in foreign orders. No going back now though. They've got too much invested in this turkey...
The price tag for such a low production run is going to be astronomical. The logistics will be a nightmare, and its ability to project power will be limited b/c the F-35 is proliferating everywhere. Even in Syria, it was flying with Israeli F-35's and American F-22's... which if things got hot would have = 2/4 less SU-57's the Kremlin had at its disposal.
I don't know how they fell so far behind... they otherwise made a nice comeback with the Mig-29/SU-27. Their mistake was developing a "heavy" stealth fighter, vs the LMFS. Of course, they would have run into the same problems, but at least they may have been able to produce them in quantity. Provided they weren't fighting American 5th gen jets, the LMFS may have made a measurable impact, particularly in foreign orders. No going back now though. They've got too much invested in this turkey...
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It will exist in that rare area between a clean SH/Typhoon and the F-117.
J-20 also hangs out there which is also handy for F-22/F-35 fliers
.Best case scenario Russia orders 50-75 and they're done.
No, I think the best case is better than that but just very drawn out over many decades. It's safe to assume that eventually Su-57 or its derivatives will replace all Flanker derivatives (Su-27/30/35) but just not very fast as new production Su-30/Su-35 are still being cranked out in higher volumes due to being much cheaper and actual finished products. The Su-57 stealth is what it is now but the whole platform can still be improved in the future in other ways e.g. improved GaN AESA or even photonic radar if they ever get it working, more potent missiles, better EW/IRST. All these will help in combating F-22/F-35 but they probably will always start at a technical disadvantage.
I don't know how they fell so far behind.
They used the same design philosophy as the Euro-Canards, build a maneuverable aerodynamically efficient aircraft and tune the stealth afterwards ... and got similar results. It's easier to build a stealth aircraft first, if you have the know-how in the first place, and tune it for maneuverability than vice versa e.g. F-35.
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Wow, you really think they're going to produce that many? That would be 500 plus airframes, a figure I just can't see them affording (finished product is going to be expensive). Likely an order of magnitude more expensive as we're not talking about a total production run anywhere near F-35 levels (3 to 4,000).
That's a really good point about aerodynamics first, stealth second. I hadn't thought of that, but it makes a lot of sense. It also occurred to me that one of the reasons they've fallen so far behind was the collapse in 1990/91. So just when we were finalizing the ATF and accelerating its testing/final form, they more or less closed up shop. We then embarked on 15 years of refinement/testing of the YF-22A while they.... languished. In those 15 years, LM went from a winning prototype to an IOC F-22A. 17 years after the PAK FA contract was awarded to Sukhoi (2002), there's still no definitive production version.
If they do produce circa 500 or so, most of those will come more than 30 years after Sukhoi was awarded the contract...
That's a really good point about aerodynamics first, stealth second. I hadn't thought of that, but it makes a lot of sense. It also occurred to me that one of the reasons they've fallen so far behind was the collapse in 1990/91. So just when we were finalizing the ATF and accelerating its testing/final form, they more or less closed up shop. We then embarked on 15 years of refinement/testing of the YF-22A while they.... languished. In those 15 years, LM went from a winning prototype to an IOC F-22A. 17 years after the PAK FA contract was awarded to Sukhoi (2002), there's still no definitive production version.
If they do produce circa 500 or so, most of those will come more than 30 years after Sukhoi was awarded the contract...
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As far as the Ruskies and their Pak-Fa go..
What where they thinking with those "open/exposed" engines? ? ? ?
And covering them up is gonna add lots of weight aft side and there goes the cg….. Then counterbalance that one adding more weight to the nose, and their engines are already so weak…… (And only 10 years late)
And more power requires more fuel and out goes the internal bay.
Then the gear becomes too weak for the lot and the list goes on and on.
Well, you can always strip the paint, or put the pilots on a diet, and pump less air in the tires. LOL.
What where they thinking with those "open/exposed" engines? ? ? ?
And covering them up is gonna add lots of weight aft side and there goes the cg….. Then counterbalance that one adding more weight to the nose, and their engines are already so weak…… (And only 10 years late)
And more power requires more fuel and out goes the internal bay.
Then the gear becomes too weak for the lot and the list goes on and on.
Well, you can always strip the paint, or put the pilots on a diet, and pump less air in the tires. LOL.
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But maybe the forego the re-designed air intakes, and greater stealth as a whole. Then she can super-cruise with the new engines, super-maneuverability remains intact and from there its finding the right weapons fit for air to air, air to ground etc..
I'm not suggesting the "final" airframe will be competitive with the F-22/35. I'm suggesting the final rendition will be superior to all American 4th gens, and about equal to the Typhoon. It will however, hold several kinematic advantages vs. the Rafale and of course the Gripen.
The big problem for Russia is that every day that ticks by there are more and more F-35's showing up around the globe. And every day that ticks by, is another day closer to the Chinese FC-31 being ready for export. We don't know how capable that aircraft will be, but form outward appearances its going to have a RCS that's smaller than the SU-57. Couple that with long range Chinese AAM's and the marketing/PR arm of Sukhoi is going to have a real uphill battle selling the thing.
The Russians may wind up being its only operator. Which spells doom aka the Mig-35, given its in a similar situation...
I'm not suggesting the "final" airframe will be competitive with the F-22/35. I'm suggesting the final rendition will be superior to all American 4th gens, and about equal to the Typhoon. It will however, hold several kinematic advantages vs. the Rafale and of course the Gripen.
The big problem for Russia is that every day that ticks by there are more and more F-35's showing up around the globe. And every day that ticks by, is another day closer to the Chinese FC-31 being ready for export. We don't know how capable that aircraft will be, but form outward appearances its going to have a RCS that's smaller than the SU-57. Couple that with long range Chinese AAM's and the marketing/PR arm of Sukhoi is going to have a real uphill battle selling the thing.
The Russians may wind up being its only operator. Which spells doom aka the Mig-35, given its in a similar situation...
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