SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 28 Nov 2017, 15:15
by mixelflick
Sounds like they finally acknowledged reality: Just prototypes until at least 2027. I can only imagine what this means for India. I'd think given this news, they're 100% out and now really hurting as China's J-31
/J-20 start to enter service...

http://warisboring.com/russia-is-haltin ... -a-decade/

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 28 Nov 2017, 16:57
by neptune
deleted

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 28 Nov 2017, 18:27
by zerion
There is a thread for this sort of thing.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 28 Nov 2017, 20:18
by juretrn
Isn't Izd. 30 starting flight testing sometime next year? Surely those engines will be ready before 2027 rolls around?
WiB talking out of their a-holes, as usual?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 28 Nov 2017, 23:02
by nn8734
If WiB is accurate, the SU 57 will enter service around the same time PCA is getting off the ground. Wonder if they are just waiting on I30 engines to mature or are looking to make design changes to the airframe and/or avionics?

Otherwise it will be hopelessly outclassed by the raptor, f35 and PCA but probably still be competitive with the J20.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Nov 2017, 00:01
by zerion
juretrn wrote:Isn't Izd. 30 starting flight testing sometime next year? Surely those engines will be ready before 2027 rolls around?
WiB talking out of their a-holes, as usual?

They have a decent source.
http://www.ponarseurasia.org/memo/russi ... -2018-2027

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Nov 2017, 00:14
by popcorn
No worries. Russia will simply reclassify it as 6Gen.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Nov 2017, 02:42
by skyward
Russia is just waiting for India to fund the project.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Nov 2017, 17:02
by mixelflick
popcorn wrote:No worries. Russia will simply reclassify it as 6Gen.


Give that man a cigar!

Sounds like that's exactly what they have planned :)

https://thediplomat.com/2017/11/russia- ... ghter-jet/

"Russia’s first indigenously designed and built fifth-generation stealth fighter, the Su-57, could be turned into a sixth-generation fighter aircraft, the former head of the Russian Aerospace Force, Viktor Bondarev told TASS news agency on November.

“This is actually a splendid plane and it can embrace both fifth-and sixth-generation features. It has huge modernization potential,” Bondarev, now chairman of the Federation Council Defense and Security Committee, said. “Importantly, it is the best among the existing versions by its stealth characteristics. It incorporates all the best that is available in modern aviation science both in Russia and in the world,” he added."

I still remember when Putin claimed it be operational in 2013 :mrgreen:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Nov 2017, 17:26
by XanderCrews
popcorn wrote:No worries. Russia will simply reclassify it as 6Gen.



Lol right on

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Nov 2017, 17:28
by XanderCrews
Remember folks, Pakfa was going to be Ivan showing the West how fifth gen is done

Lol.

Where is haavalra?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Nov 2017, 18:02
by durahawk
XanderCrews wrote:
popcorn wrote:No worries. Russia will simply reclassify it as 6Gen.


Lol right on


6th gen huh? I guess the SU-57 will join the ranks of the Gripen of Sweetman lore. :mrgreen:

In all seriousness though, the prospects don't look great for Mother Russia developing a competent 5th gen fighter on a GDP less than that of Italy... at least anytime soon as oil prices remain low. Especially without India acting as the sugar daddy.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Nov 2017, 18:23
by mixelflick
durahawk wrote:
XanderCrews wrote:
popcorn wrote:No worries. Russia will simply reclassify it as 6Gen.


Lol right on


6th gen huh? I guess the SU-57 will join the ranks of the Gripen of Sweetman lore. :mrgreen:

In all seriousness though, the prospects don't look great for Mother Russia developing a competent 5th gen fighter on a GDP less than that of Italy... at least anytime soon as oil prices remain low. Especially without India acting as the sugar daddy.


Wow! That point about Italy really puts things in perspective!! It seems ruble reality is now hitting the Russians...

1) No SU-57 for at least a decade
2.) The S-500 isn't coming anytime soon
3.) Building TU-160M2's vs PAK DA's
4.) No more super-carrier

Triaging this would be interesting. So they fly the PAK FA prototype in 2010. APA Kopp/Goon go ballistic and proclaim America's stealth monopoly has ended. F-35 is panned as "double inferior" to Russian/Chinese Flankers, nevermind this new Russian wonder bird. 7 years on we're told it'll be another decade before PAK FA/SU-57 enters service.

Shazam.

Meanwhile F-35's roll off the production lines in increasing numbers and are getting cheaper and cheaper. In 10 years they'll be what, 1,000's of F-35's proliferating around the globe? We have reached a defining moment in the new arms race: The Chinese are a far greater threat to our military superiority vs. the Russians.

No wonder the F-22 driver I spoke with at a recent airshow was far more concerned with them/the J-20 than the SU-57...

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Nov 2017, 23:20
by milosh
http://www.vladtime.ru/polit/621382

Su-57 is probable on ice while PAK-DA is on deicing, Tu-160M2 price is reason for PAK-DA. Price of modernisation of Tu-160 on M2 level is 50million dollars that is without making totally new airframe.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 30 Nov 2017, 01:27
by nutshell
RuAF giving up.

F35 so good it doesnt even need to fire a single missile to achieve air superiority :mrgreen:

Air dominance through superior... development roadmap.

P.s.: so, su57 ioc just in time to watch the bees shooting lasers. Lol.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 30 Nov 2017, 02:07
by nn8734
mixelflick wrote:
popcorn wrote:No worries. Russia will simply reclassify it as 6Gen.



https://thediplomat.com/2017/11/russia- ... ghter-jet/



“This is actually a splendid plane and it can embrace both fifth-and sixth-generation features. It has huge modernization potential,” Bondarev, now chairman of the Federation Council Defense and Security Committee, said. “Importantly, it is the best among the existing versions by its stealth characteristics. It incorporates all the best that is available in modern aviation science both in Russia and in the world,” he added." :mrgreen:


The Russians are proving themselves to be nothing short of delusional with those statements. It’s highly unlikely WE will field a true sixth generation fighter anytime before 2040 (PCA will likely be a 5.5 gen, at least at first when it comes on line in the next decade), let alone Russia.

Agree with an earlier post that China is much more of a concern than the Russians.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 30 Nov 2017, 04:06
by XanderCrews
nutshell wrote:RuAF giving up.

F35 so good it doesnt even need to fire a single missile to achieve air superiority :mrgreen:

Air dominance through superior... development roadmap.

P.s.: so, su57 ioc just in time to watch the bees shooting lasers. Lol.



Lol

Where was that Aussie who was telling us this thing was like a stealthy foxbat that could fly at 80000 ft? And we didn't have a chance.

Where is the Rafale fanboy who was talking us that 5th generation engines aren't special or different in any way?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 30 Nov 2017, 05:12
by popcorn
Hmmm... nothing on Keypubs?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 30 Nov 2017, 15:13
by milosh
mixelflick wrote:
popcorn wrote:No worries. Russia will simply reclassify it as 6Gen.


Give that man a cigar!

Sounds like that's exactly what they have planned :)

https://thediplomat.com/2017/11/russia- ... ghter-jet/

"Russia’s first indigenously designed and built fifth-generation stealth fighter, the Su-57, could be turned into a sixth-generation fighter aircraft, the former head of the Russian Aerospace Force, Viktor Bondarev told TASS news agency on November.


That explain a lot. New head of Russian AF isn't from AF but from army and he want what boots on ground need, those are UAV&UCAV and more fighter bombers (Su-30 and Su-34).

I think that is wrong because Su-57 could be base for other fighter types not just Russian F-22 equivalent (more less pure A-A machine).

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 30 Nov 2017, 15:47
by XanderCrews
milosh wrote:I think that is wrong because Su-57 could be base for other fighter types not just Russian F-22 equivalent (more less pure A-A machine).



You mean "compromised" by "multi-role"??

:)

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 30 Nov 2017, 17:52
by mixelflick
XanderCrews wrote:
milosh wrote:I think that is wrong because Su-57 could be base for other fighter types not just Russian F-22 equivalent (more less pure A-A machine).



You mean "compromised" by "multi-role"??

:)


The Russians have an uncanny ability to build (supposed) air to ground/air to sea capabilities into their air to air machines. Of course, you never see a Flanker with anything more than a rudimentary air to ground (usually dumb bombs) capability.

As for a decade on ice; Wonder where this leaves the navalised SU-57? They're going to be flying SU-33's or more likely Mig-29K's from their carriers for the next 20 years!

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 30 Nov 2017, 18:52
by hythelday
mixelflick wrote:
XanderCrews wrote:
milosh wrote:I think that is wrong because Su-57 could be base for other fighter types not just Russian F-22 equivalent (more less pure A-A machine).



You mean "compromised" by "multi-role"??

:)


The Russians have an uncanny ability to build (supposed) air to ground/air to sea capabilities into their air to air machines. Of course, you never see a Flanker with anything more than a rudimentary air to ground (usually dumb bombs) capability.

As for a decade on ice; Wonder where this leaves the navalised SU-57? They're going to be flying SU-33's or more likely Mig-29K's from their carriers for the next 20 years!



Kuznetsov's refurbishment budget (supposedly) got slashed in half, so it doesn't really matter.

Man, Crimea was totally worth it. :doh:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 30 Nov 2017, 20:36
by XanderCrews
milosh wrote:That explain a lot. New head of Russian AF isn't from AF but from army and he want what boots on ground need, those are UAV&UCAV and more fighter bombers (Su-30 and Su-34).

).


As a Marine and a boot on the ground, I like to remind people that although CAS is wonderful, the ability to not be attacked by enemy airpower is pretty nice too.


But that's just me. No wait it's not, there are literally hundreds of examples and reports of what happens when enemy air can attack with impunity

You can't undertake offensive operations without control of the air.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2017, 00:07
by nutshell
XanderCrews wrote:
nutshell wrote:RuAF giving up.

F35 so good it doesnt even need to fire a single missile to achieve air superiority :mrgreen:

Air dominance through superior... development roadmap.

P.s.: so, su57 ioc just in time to watch the bees shooting lasers. Lol.



Lol

Where was that Aussie who was telling us this thing was like a stealthy foxbat that could fly at 80000 ft? And we didn't have a chance.

Where is the Rafale fanboy who was talking us that 5th generation engines aren't special or different in any way?


They are all enjoying F35 death spiral ofc and cheering for the russian crafty engineering ( which is somewhat "mystical ").

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2017, 02:32
by rheonomic
XanderCrews wrote:As a Marine and a boot on the ground, I like to remind people that although CAS is wonderful, the ability to not be attacked by enemy airpower is pretty nice too.


There's also the question of CAS vs BAI.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2017, 06:48
by zaltys
So far haven’t seen any similar news on russian forums. Knowing russians, I would expect a lot of noise on their forums with such stuff. It looks like unconfirmed information atm, but from their current situation I can totally expect it to be true.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2017, 23:59
by juretrn
It seems someone triggered Russia Stronkists over at Keypub HARD. You can almost see the foaming at the mouths in some of the posts.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 04 Dec 2017, 20:14
by mixelflick
Anyone hear anything more about this?

"Russia is reportedly working on a second and much cheaper stealth fighter derived from the Mikoyan MiG 1.44, a design that was beaten in a competition for Russia's fifth generation fighter by the current stealth fighter, the Sukhoi PAK FA..."

I found this interesting as the Mig I.44 seems decidedly un-stealthy. Is it possible they forgo the SU-57 for another, cheaper design??

Read more: http://www.chinatopix.com/articles/1116 ... z50JyjkjWr

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2017, 00:19
by XanderCrews
mixelflick wrote:Anyone hear anything more about this?

"Russia is reportedly working on a second and much cheaper stealth fighter derived from the Mikoyan MiG 1.44, a design that was beaten in a competition for Russia's fifth generation fighter by the current stealth fighter, the Sukhoi PAK FA..."

I found this interesting as the Mig I.44 seems decidedly un-stealthy. Is it possible they forgo the SU-57 for another, cheaper design??

Read more: http://www.chinatopix.com/articles/1116 ... z50JyjkjWr


I hope it's true. I hope they create dozens of projects that result in No or few production aircraft.

Keep it up Russia, you're doing great.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2017, 03:14
by rheonomic
MiG 1.44 was a POS and only a tech demonstrator IIRC.

Wasn't MiG supposedly working on a low end MiG-29 successor at some point? I forgot the project abbreviation.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2017, 03:46
by southernphantom
rheonomic wrote:MiG 1.44 was a POS and only a tech demonstrator IIRC.

Wasn't MiG supposedly working on a low end MiG-29 successor at some point? I forgot the project abbreviation.


Yes, that would be the MiG LMFS.

We'll see if it delivers an operational aircraft in meaningful numbers, or is just more Russian Plasma Stealth® vaporware nonsense.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2017, 05:50
by Corsair1963
southernphantom wrote:
rheonomic wrote:MiG 1.44 was a POS and only a tech demonstrator IIRC.

Wasn't MiG supposedly working on a low end MiG-29 successor at some point? I forgot the project abbreviation.


Yes, that would be the MiG LMFS.

We'll see if it delivers an operational aircraft in meaningful numbers, or is just more Russian Plasma Stealth® vaporware nonsense.



In my opinion Russia made a colossal mistake. When it decided to pursue the PAK-FA over the LMFS. As the former has virtually no export potential..... :doh:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2017, 09:18
by hythelday
Corsair1963 wrote:
southernphantom wrote:
rheonomic wrote:MiG 1.44 was a POS and only a tech demonstrator IIRC.

Wasn't MiG supposedly working on a low end MiG-29 successor at some point? I forgot the project abbreviation.


Yes, that would be the MiG LMFS.

We'll see if it delivers an operational aircraft in meaningful numbers, or is just more Russian Plasma Stealth® vaporware nonsense.



In my opinion Russia made a colossal mistake. When it decided to pursue the PAK-FA over the LMFS. As the former has virtually no export potential..... :doh:



There were articles ~5 years ago by Russian "experts" saying demand for export PAK-FAs is roughly 600 globally. There are less advanced Flankers than that, lol.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2017, 12:08
by madrat
MiG as a political machine has completely lost momentum. They could have pursued many avenues, but Russian leadership pushed policy that locked them out of competitions. MiG has had one brilliant design after another succumb to its weak marketing to its own government's incoherent support strategy. (The Chinese seem to have benefited from MiG, Tupovlev, and Yakovlev being eaten alive by Sukhoi dominance.) It's not bad for the West that Russia eats its own. It's a good thing that the world isn't full of single-engine Russian light fighters and attack planes.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2017, 17:16
by XanderCrews
madrat wrote:MiG as a political machine has completely lost momentum. They could have pursued many avenues, but Russian leadership pushed policy that locked them out of competitions. MiG has had one brilliant design after another succumb to its weak marketing to its own government's incoherent support strategy. (The Chinese seem to have benefited from MiG, Tupovlev, and Yakovlev being eaten alive by Sukhoi dominance.) It's not bad for the West that Russia eats its own. It's a good thing that the world isn't full of single-engine Russian light fighters and attack planes.



It's all UAC

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2017, 17:47
by durahawk
madrat wrote:MiG as a political machine has completely lost momentum. They could have pursued many avenues, but Russian leadership pushed policy that locked them out of competitions. MiG has had one brilliant design after another succumb to its weak marketing to its own government's incoherent support strategy. (The Chinese seem to have benefited from MiG, Tupovlev, and Yakovlev being eaten alive by Sukhoi dominance.) It's not bad for the West that Russia eats its own. It's a good thing that the world isn't full of single-engine Russian light fighters and attack planes.


Without the $6.7B progress payment from India for the FGFA the SU-57 project will be on life support.

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the next 25 odd years we see a J-20 or J-31 with Russian Air Force or Navy liveries. They simply don't have the capital to develop a worthwhile fifth gen on there own before it becomes entirely irrelevant. There would be a lot of Russia Stronk pride to overcome, but Russia has looked to the export market before to fill urgent operational needs (see French Mistral class fiasco). At the very least, I would expect to see a Sino-Russian fighter collaboration in the future.

Of course, a spike in oil prices in the next few years could turn this whole thing around for the Russkies too.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2017, 19:15
by XanderCrews
durahawk wrote:
madrat wrote:MiG as a political machine has completely lost momentum. They could have pursued many avenues, but Russian leadership pushed policy that locked them out of competitions. MiG has had one brilliant design after another succumb to its weak marketing to its own government's incoherent support strategy. (The Chinese seem to have benefited from MiG, Tupovlev, and Yakovlev being eaten alive by Sukhoi dominance.) It's not bad for the West that Russia eats its own. It's a good thing that the world isn't full of single-engine Russian light fighters and attack planes.


Without the $6.7B progress payment from India for the FGFA the SU-57 project will be on life support.

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the next 25 odd years we see a J-20 or J-31 with Russian Air Force or Navy liveries. They simply don't have the capital to develop a worthwhile fifth gen on there own before it becomes entirely irrelevant. There would be a lot of Russia Stronk pride to overcome, but Russia has looked to the export market before to fill urgent operational needs (see French Mistral class fiasco). At the very least, I would expect to see a Sino-Russian fighter collaboration in the future.

Of course, a spike in oil prices in the next few years could turn this whole thing around for the Russkies too.



According to the Komrades at key pubs they don't need India or their money

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2017, 22:15
by swiss
It seems the Su-57 has her first test flight with one Izdeliye 30. Or at least with a new nozzle. :wink:


Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2017, 22:46
by project458
XanderCrews wrote:
durahawk wrote:
madrat wrote:MiG as a political machine has completely lost momentum. They could have pursued many avenues, but Russian leadership pushed policy that locked them out of competitions. MiG has had one brilliant design after another succumb to its weak marketing to its own government's incoherent support strategy. (The Chinese seem to have benefited from MiG, Tupovlev, and Yakovlev being eaten alive by Sukhoi dominance.) It's not bad for the West that Russia eats its own. It's a good thing that the world isn't full of single-engine Russian light fighters and attack planes.


Without the $6.7B progress payment from India for the FGFA the SU-57 project will be on life support.

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the next 25 odd years we see a J-20 or J-31 with Russian Air Force or Navy liveries. They simply don't have the capital to develop a worthwhile fifth gen on there own before it becomes entirely irrelevant. There would be a lot of Russia Stronk pride to overcome, but Russia has looked to the export market before to fill urgent operational needs (see French Mistral class fiasco). At the very least, I would expect to see a Sino-Russian fighter collaboration in the future.

Of course, a spike in oil prices in the next few years could turn this whole thing around for the Russkies too.



According to the Komrades at key pubs they don't need India or their money



Because we don't, for the last 14 years PAK FA has been funded entirely by Russian money, and this article is a joke, no hard sources , I take the word of Russian air force commander over an some analyst.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2017, 22:51
by milosh
swiss wrote:It seems the Su-57 has her first test flight with one Izdeliye 30. Or at least with a new nozzle. :wink:



New engine and new nozzle, nozzle looks more as LOAL nozzle then Salyut one we saw earlier, and nozzle is quite shorter.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2017, 23:12
by XanderCrews
project458 wrote:

Because we don't, for the last 14 years PAK FA has been funded entirely by Russian money, and this article is a joke, no hard sources , I take the word of Russian air force commander over an some analyst.


Hi KGB

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2017, 23:31
by project458
XanderCrews wrote:
project458 wrote:

Because we don't, for the last 14 years PAK FA has been funded entirely by Russian money, and this article is a joke, no hard sources , I take the word of Russian air force commander over an some analyst.


Hi KGB


Hey, uninformed :)

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2017, 23:56
by XanderCrews
project458 wrote:
XanderCrews wrote:
project458 wrote:

Because we don't, for the last 14 years PAK FA has been funded entirely by Russian money, and this article is a joke, no hard sources , I take the word of Russian air force commander over an some analyst.


Hi KGB


Hey, uninformed :)


Inform us

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 06 Dec 2017, 01:01
by project458
XanderCrews wrote: Inform us

About what exactly? How this entire thread is based on a opinion of some analyst who has zero inside knowledge ? I remember how people on this forum said Su-57 is fiction and it will never fly, then when it flew they said it would be canceled, now 7 years and 9th prototypes later and with 10th and 11th a few months away, Su-57 is still here, and sometime in 2018 Su-57 will enter LRIP, and if people think there is a shortage of money, consider the fact that within the last decade alone Ruaf inducted 500+ Fixed wing platforms, thats second only to US, a broke country's doesn't have that kind of money to spend.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 06 Dec 2017, 02:45
by XanderCrews
project458 wrote:
XanderCrews wrote: Inform us


I remember how people on this forum said Su-57 is fiction and it will never fly, then when it flew they said it would be canceled.


Really? Who said that?

I know I didn't. You are new but not everyone here is an individual. Some were saying that?

Some were saying it would take years and years before they churned out even 10 prototypes as well...

now 7 years and 9th prototypes later and with 10th and 11th a few months away,


Image

7 years?

FAKE NEWS ALERT:

if going just by the first flight its been nearly 8 years, seeing as the first prototype flew in January of 2010... And of course the PAK-FA program itself goes back further than just 2010.


Image

I guess I was wrong when I asked you to inform us seeing as you don't know what youre talking about. In your defense you were probably too young to remember 2009? or maybe you just got caught lying? or maybe just completely ignorant?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 06 Dec 2017, 05:18
by Corsair1963
project458 wrote:
XanderCrews wrote: Inform us




About what exactly? How this entire thread is based on a opinion of some analyst who has zero inside knowledge ? I remember how people on this forum said Su-57 is fiction and it will never fly, then when it flew they said it would be canceled, now 7 years and 9th prototypes later and with 10th and 11th a few months away, Su-57 is still here, and sometime in 2018 Su-57 will enter LRIP, and if people think there is a shortage of money, consider the fact that within the last decade alone Ruaf inducted 500+ Fixed wing platforms, thats second only to US, a broke country's doesn't have that kind of money to spend.


Yet, the future hardly looks promising for either the Su-57 or Russian Air Force...... :doh:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 06 Dec 2017, 05:21
by Corsair1963
hythelday wrote:

There were articles ~5 years ago by Russian "experts" saying demand for export PAK-FAs is roughly 600 globally. There are less advanced Flankers than that, lol.



If, India leaves the PAK-FA/FGFA Program with Russia and the odds are looking good that it will. Then the prospects for future export orders for the type look grim indeed! :shock:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 06 Dec 2017, 05:24
by Corsair1963
milosh wrote:
swiss wrote:It seems the Su-57 has her first test flight with one Izdeliye 30. Or at least with a new nozzle. :wink:



New engine and new nozzle, nozzle looks more as LOAL nozzle then Salyut one we saw earlier, and nozzle is quite shorter.



Maybe the production version of the izdeliye 30 won't have TVC? Which, would explain why it's shorter.... :|

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 06 Dec 2017, 05:36
by charlielima223
I remember when the PAKFA came out, it was on everyone's radar (no pun intended). It every interwebs commentator and "analyst" propped it up as the next deadliest thing to the F-22. Now as time has passed, (to me) it looks like a tiger with no fangs or claws... especially when you compare how much more advanced the F-22 and F-35 are now and how much more they will be in the foreseeable future.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 06 Dec 2017, 05:43
by Corsair1963
durahawk wrote:
I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the next 25 odd years we see a J-20 or J-31 with Russian Air Force or Navy liveries. They simply don't have the capital to develop a worthwhile fifth gen on there own before it becomes entirely irrelevant. There would be a lot of Russia Stronk pride to overcome, but Russia has looked to the export market before to fill urgent operational needs (see French Mistral class fiasco). At the very least, I would expect to see a Sino-Russian fighter collaboration in the future.

Of course, a spike in oil prices in the next few years could turn this whole thing around for the Russkies too.


That is what I've been saying for sometime now. That Russia will be forced to partner with China. Especially, in such segments as fighters. With the J-31 being the most obvious choice.........

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 06 Dec 2017, 05:45
by Corsair1963
charlielima223 wrote:I remember when the PAKFA came out, it was on everyone's radar (no pun intended). It every interwebs commentator and "analyst" propped it up as the next deadliest thing to the F-22. Now as time has passed, (to me) it looks like a tiger with no fangs or claws... especially when you compare how much more advanced the F-22 and F-35 are now and how much more they will be in the foreseeable future.



I agree as time goes by fewer and fewer seem concern about the Su-57???

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 06 Dec 2017, 05:47
by Corsair1963
XanderCrews wrote:
According to the Komrades at key pubs they don't need India or their money



:lmao:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 06 Dec 2017, 13:48
by milosh
Corsair1963 wrote:Maybe the production version of the izdeliye 30 won't have TVC? Which, would explain why it's shorter.... :|


Very unlikely.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 06 Dec 2017, 14:39
by XanderCrews
Corsair1963 wrote:
charlielima223 wrote:I remember when the PAKFA came out, it was on everyone's radar (no pun intended). It every interwebs commentator and "analyst" propped it up as the next deadliest thing to the F-22. Now as time has passed, (to me) it looks like a tiger with no fangs or claws... especially when you compare how much more advanced the F-22 and F-35 are now and how much more they will be in the foreseeable future.



I agree as time goes by fewer and fewer seem concern about the Su-57???



Engine is still years away. When you build only 9 prototypes and still lose one to a fire. India which is the biggest partner says things about it that make F-35 critics blush

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 06 Dec 2017, 15:43
by hythelday
XanderCrews wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:
charlielima223 wrote:I remember when the PAKFA came out, it was on everyone's radar (no pun intended). It every interwebs commentator and "analyst" propped it up as the next deadliest thing to the F-22. Now as time has passed, (to me) it looks like a tiger with no fangs or claws... especially when you compare how much more advanced the F-22 and F-35 are now and how much more they will be in the foreseeable future.



I agree as time goes by fewer and fewer seem concern about the Su-57???



Engine is still years away. When you build only 9 prototypes and still lose one to a fire. India which is the biggest partner says things about it that make F-35 critics blush


They did repair the burnt plane though.

Putting one Izd 30 to test it out is... interesting decision. Then again Russians do things differently.

Maybe it's not all doomy and gloomy for Su-57 after all, but it still seems to be following Flanker development pattern.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 06 Dec 2017, 16:52
by XanderCrews
hythelday wrote:
They did repair the burnt plane though.

Putting one Izd 30 to test it out is... interesting decision. Then again Russians do things differently.

Maybe it's not all doomy and gloomy for Su-57 after all, but it still seems to be following Flanker development pattern.



It was more a reference about why people don't seem worried. If we go but what our "informed" new guy says and only count development from the first flight on we have 9 prototypes the last 8 years.

Where was the F-22, F-35, and super hornet 8 years after first flight? And they all had new engines as well.

First flights month and year:

SH November 1995
F-22 September 1997
F-35 December 2006


And we all know how ambitious the F-35 is.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 07 Dec 2017, 01:37
by nutshell
9 protoypes in 7 years...

AMAZING I SWEAR.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 07 Dec 2017, 05:15
by Corsair1963
The Su-57 is just not a viable option for the Indian Air Force! :doh:


So, better to cut ties with the PAK-FA Program and move oooon! :wink:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 07 Dec 2017, 21:56
by XanderCrews
nutshell wrote:9 protoypes in 7 years...

AMAZING I SWEAR.



It's more like 9 in 10 years too :doh:

It keeps me up at night too. Imagine where this program will be in 10 more years or 15? Maybe 50 of these things in vastly different lots and configs

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2017, 01:25
by project458
XanderCrews wrote:
project458 wrote:
XanderCrews wrote: Inform us


I remember how people on this forum said Su-57 is fiction and it will never fly, then when it flew they said it would be canceled.


Really? Who said that?

I know I didn't. You are new but not everyone here is an individual. Some were saying that?

Some were saying it would take years and years before they churned out even 10 prototypes as well...

now 7 years and 9th prototypes later and with 10th and 11th a few months away,



if going just by the first flight its been nearly 8 years, seeing as the first prototype flew in January of 2010... And of course the PAK-FA program itself goes back further than just 2010.
I guess I was wrong when I asked you to inform us seeing as you don't know what youre talking about. In your defense you were probably too young to remember 2009? or maybe you just got caught lying? or maybe just completely ignorant?


Yes that would be 2002 thats when the PAK FA program began.


Corsair1963 wrote:

Yet, the future hardly looks promising for either the Su-57 or Russian Air Force...... :doh:


Care to elaborate ? [/quote]


I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the next 25 odd years we see a J-20 or J-31 with Russian Air Force or Navy liveries


Ridiculous, Su-57 hits IOC next year, but please keep thinking about fantasy scenarios.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2017, 01:35
by project458
nutshell wrote:9 protoypes in 7 years...

AMAZING I SWEAR.



Sorry, we don't do concurrency, where we build hundreds of aircraft before the Aircraft hits IOC, then those said aircraft turn out to be useless.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/militar ... or-combat/

XanderCrews wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:
charlielima223 wrote:I remember when the PAKFA came out, it was on everyone's radar (no pun intended). It every interwebs commentator and "analyst" propped it up as the next deadliest thing to the F-22. Now as time has passed, (to me) it looks like a tiger with no fangs or claws... especially when you compare how much more advanced the F-22 and F-35 are now and how much more they will be in the foreseeable future.



I agree as time goes by fewer and fewer seem concern about the Su-57???



Engine is still years away. When you build only 9 prototypes and still lose one to a fire. India which is the biggest partner says things about it that make F-35 critics blush



Engine is already in flight testing, and speaking about fires

https://theaviationist.com/2015/06/06/f ... re-images/

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2017, 01:45
by white_lightning35
How I imagine this discussion going.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2017, 02:32
by white_lightning35
Hmmm...So you edited out the part of your post where you said Russia planes hit IOC after hundreds have been built, and then replaced that statement with "the PAK fa is going IOC next year". With ten whole planes!

The pak fa seems to me to be an effort to make a dying country seem relevant. They make incremental changes out to be game-changers, and that the whole world will tremble before their "fifth-gen air plane". Putin, being a very bold leader, seems to have made some Russians think that they are now back in the old days, taking on the evil Yankees. The world, however, changes. The russians come out with a new mighty engine for the pak fa, the US is bringing up the ADVENT engine. They claim their airplane flies higher and faster, which it very much could, but that does not mean as much as it did. A paradigm shift is what is needed, and that is what the f-35 brings. Battles are not fought like they once were, and you either adapt or die. The russians aren't seeming to get that with respect to their air force.

The Cold War proved that you need to have not only a well-funded military, which Rossiya doesn't really have, but also a reasonably wealthy populace, which Rossiya certainly doesn't have. It is no longer the top "bad guy" on the world stage. That would be China. Some people think the US occupies that spot, but I don't give a s##t what they think, because they're morons if they really can't see the difference in ideals between the US and China/Rossiya.

This post was reasonably off-topic, which I apologize for, but it was mainly directed at the russia stronkists out there.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2017, 03:00
by XanderCrews
project458 wrote:
Yes that would be 2002 thats when the PAK FA program began.


So you were dead Wrong? That Didn't take long.

Thought you were going to tell us the real deal. All these silly F-16.net folks are already catching you on your lies

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2017, 03:20
by XanderCrews
white_lightning35 wrote:Hmmm...So you edited out the part of your post where you said Russia planes hit IOC after hundreds have been built, and then replaced that statement with "the PAK fa is going IOC next year". With ten whole planes!



I'm curious about that too. Wouldn't fit any western definition of IOC

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2017, 09:32
by project458
XanderCrews wrote:
project458 wrote:
Yes that would be 2002 thats when the PAK FA program began.


So you were dead Wrong? That Didn't take long.



The first flight was 7 Years 10 Months 9 Days, ago is that exact enough LOL ? and speaking about being " dead wrong " how about I mention every dead wrong post that you made in this thread and then debunk them with sources instead of responding with childish memes ?

Accept the challenge ?


Thought you were going to tell us the real deal. All these silly F-16.net folks are already catching you on your lies



Well considering how some guy in this thread said that Russia will be flying with Chinese Stealth fighters in a few years, " the word "Silly " would be dead on.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2017, 12:20
by milosh
@white_lightning35

Top bad country in world doesn't have nothing with ideals but with what that country do to other countries.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2017, 15:14
by mk82
Project 458/Commissar of the Glorious People’s Republic of Bullpucky: SU 57 is going to IOC in 2018

SU 57 going to IOC in 2018!!?? Hahahahaha......hohohohho......hahahahahaha......with just 10 prototypes.........hohohohoho......pull the other one! Funny how the SU 57’s IOC is getting later and later......Lay off that homemade Vodka Tovarisch and drink some Stolichnaya. Join the winning team.....and stop posting propaganda b*llshit.

Or just keep doing that Hapok dancing Tovarisch......

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2017, 15:40
by mixelflick
SU-57 IOC next year? That's rich..

So in a year's time or less, they're going to have that engine perfected, crews trained to fly and maintain it, a logistical support network, all kinds of weapons tested, tactics developed, integrated with "4++" gen Flankers, AWACS, certify it for aerial refueling, fund it and all the front line units to support it?

Um, did you miss the part about only building 12 and pushing things back to 2027?


http://warisboring.com/russia-is-haltin ... -a-decade/

I suppose the carrier based variant will be flying off decks in 2018 too??

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2017, 18:02
by zaltys
There is information from "insiders" that 6 operational pilots are trained on Su-57 and first 2 serial production aircraft will be transferred to RuAF in May 2018. Sure, they won't be in advertised configuration, IMO.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2017, 18:02
by durahawk
project458 wrote:Well considering how some guy in this thread said that Russia will be flying with Chinese Stealth fighters in a few years, " the word "Silly " would be dead on.


I said "25 odd years" to be exact, and "wouldn't be surprised" which is distinct from a forgone conclusion. But continue spreading your misinformation.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2017, 18:40
by milosh
mixelflick wrote:Um, did you miss the part about only building 12 and pushing things back to 2027?

http://warisboring.com/russia-is-haltin ... -a-decade/


That text used this memo:
http://www.ponarseurasia.org/memo/russi ... -2018-2027

which used this text for that 2027 estimate:
http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-bu ... aste-21736

and if you read that original text you will not see nothing about 2027 :doh:

all there is what is already known, smaller number of serial Su-57 will be made, they will have 117 engines to start IOC procedure. And of course IOC is expected to end in early 2020 when new engine is also fully developed.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2017, 23:40
by XanderCrews
project458 wrote:

The first flight was 7 Years 10 Months 9 Days, ago is that exact enough LOL ?


No. Because you are failing to take into account the construction time for the first prototype when doing the math on how many prototypes have been constructed So again you are wrong and inaccurate. You are then using that inaccurate remark as "proof" when it's not true in the first place.

7 years and 9th prototypes later and with 10th and 11th a few months away



Thus you are dead wrong in your assertion and measurement of the programs progress by your own parameters.

It's closet to about 11 years producing 9 prototypes and not one with production representative engines yet, which is odd as you are also telling us the test fleet will be IOC?




and speaking about being " dead wrong " how about I mention every dead wrong post that you made in this thread and then debunk them with sources instead of responding with childish memes ?

Accept the challenge ?


By all means, bur Fact check yourself first, your credibility is next to nothing so far.

Well considering how some guy in this thread said that Russia will be flying with Chinese Stealth fighters in a few years, " the word "Silly " would be dead on.


Silly like forgetting basic timelines?

Protip: if you're going to be the authority on factual information you may want to use facts and be informed.

So far I see nothing but a nationalist fanboy with zero background in avaition but a mastery of propoganda and personal attacks.

You won't last long here

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 11 Dec 2017, 04:30
by Corsair1963
project458 wrote:

Well considering how some guy in this thread said that Russia will be flying with Chinese Stealth fighters in a few years, " the word "Silly " would be dead on.


How many Su-57's at well over $100 Million do you think Russia can afford by 2030??? :shock:

Also, Fighter-Bombers (i.e. Strike Fighters) have been at the core of Tactical Military Aviation since WWII. So, you think Russia can live without such a type???

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 11 Dec 2017, 04:36
by Corsair1963
zaltys wrote:There is information from "insiders" that 6 operational pilots are trained on Su-57 and first 2 serial production aircraft will be transferred to RuAF in May 2018. Sure, they won't be in advertised configuration, IMO.



Russia is just doing the usual "spin". :shock: Those pilots are "Test Pilots" and those aircraft are "Preproduction".....

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 11 Dec 2017, 13:53
by mixelflick
At over 100 million, I doubt we'll see a production run of much over 100.

That 2nd stage engine (by their own estimates) could take up to 10 years to develop. What of the AESA radar, weapons tests (including brand new air to air missiles), stealth improvements etc?? Look, if they really are going IOC in 2018 or 2019, they'll be flying one immature, underpowered and suspect jet into battle.

More likely is the fact they've figured out the SU-57 is no great improvement over the SU-35. It's pretty clear the air force is stoked with the SU-35, not so much with the SU-57. Just today, another article was posted concerning the SU-57 (http://warisboring.com/russias-su-57-st ... d-to-fail/).

So it seems if the lack of stealth, appropriate engines and other design flaws don't doom it, the politics behind it will...

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 11 Dec 2017, 15:09
by milosh
New engine isn't here because of power but because of stealth and cheaper maintenance:

Изд 30. - турбореактивный двухконтурный двигатель поколения 5 с форсажной камерой сгорания.
Двигатель позволит обеспечить специальные характеристики по радиолокационной незаметности в ППС.
Основные преимущества - увеличение тяги на 5%, снижение удельного веса на 25%, сокращение общего числа ступеней.
Достижение специальных характеристик по РЛ незаметности обеспечивает интегральный ВНА из разработанного композитного материала.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 11 Dec 2017, 17:56
by juretrn
mixelflick wrote:http://warisboring.com/russias-su-57-stealth-fighter-is-doomed-to-fail

Just more BS from the usual suspects at WiB. You (we) rage at F-35 related BS, but we're willing to believe anything WiB comes up with in regard with Su-57? Meh.
The whole "not ready until 2027" claim is nothing but another D. Majumdar cock-and-bull story.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 12 Dec 2017, 06:30
by Corsair1963
juretrn wrote:
mixelflick wrote:http://warisboring.com/russias-su-57-stealth-fighter-is-doomed-to-fail

Just more BS from the usual suspects at WiB. You (we) rage at F-35 related BS, but we're willing to believe anything WiB comes up with in regard with Su-57? Meh.
The whole "not ready until 2027" claim is nothing but another D. Majumdar cock-and-bull story.


Really, the izdeliye 30 just recently had it's first test flight in a prototype Su-57. So, what part of 2027 don't you get??? :doh:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 12 Dec 2017, 16:23
by XanderCrews
juretrn wrote:
mixelflick wrote:http://warisboring.com/russias-su-57-stealth-fighter-is-doomed-to-fail

Just more BS from the usual suspects at WiB. You (we) rage at F-35 related BS, but we're willing to believe anything WiB comes up with in regard with Su-57? Meh.
The whole "not ready until 2027" claim is nothing but another D. Majumdar cock-and-bull story.


Define "ready"

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 12 Dec 2017, 16:33
by garrya
juretrn wrote:
mixelflick wrote:http://warisboring.com/russias-su-57-stealth-fighter-is-doomed-to-fail

Just more BS from the usual suspects at WiB. You (we) rage at F-35 related BS, but we're willing to believe anything WiB comes up with in regard with Su-57? Meh.
The whole "not ready until 2027" claim is nothing but another D. Majumdar cock-and-bull story.

Agree, he only wrote that because it is catchy and he knew it will bring more traffic.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 14 Dec 2017, 22:30
by arian
I said this a year ago: Russian air force in the foreseeable future will be about 100-150 of each Su-35, Su-30 and Su-34. Not enough production or operational capability or money or need for much more.

They can't sacrifice replacing their antiquated fleet of Su-27s, Su-24s and MiG-29s by redirecting resources towards projects like PAK-FA which are already unlikely to match their competitors. They desperately need to replace the junk heap they inherited and haven't upgraded in decades. Priorities.

And they learned their lesson in Syria too: priority is sensors, air-ground weapons, multi-role airplanes, UAVs etc. The alternative is having no real air force for the next 10 years until PAK-FA gets around and then even longer till it rolls out in sufficient numbers.

So I have to give credit to the Russians for actually focusing on realistic goals. They're not going to invade Europe anytime soon, and they will likley be involved in more local conflicts like Syria where such capabilities are needed and appear to be lacking, especially in numerical terms. Continuing to rely on junk Su-24s with Garmin fishing boat GPS, while pretending to be developing 9th generation aircraft, is not realistic.

And yes, I'll echo whoever said it before me: Crimea was totally worth it you guys :roll:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 14 Dec 2017, 22:37
by juretrn
arian wrote:And yes, I'll echo whoever said it before me: Crimea was totally worth it you guys :roll:

Political points for Putin, my friend, that's all. THen just shift the blame for sanctions on EU and US "imperialism" and voila! support for Putin keeps on rising.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 14 Dec 2017, 22:55
by arian
juretrn wrote:
arian wrote:And yes, I'll echo whoever said it before me: Crimea was totally worth it you guys :roll:

Political points for Putin, my friend, that's all. THen just shift the blame for sanctions on EU and US "imperialism" and voila! support for Putin keeps on rising.


Putin had all the support he needed, the economy was doing fine, his foes were nobodys, Russia was emerging on the world scene again as a respectable actor (albeit with all the Olympics toilet jokes), money was flowing in like crazy. They could even buy all the western equipment they wanted for their armed forces. And yet, the crazy dictator just couldn't be happy with that. Couldn't even maintain the appearance of a reasonable government. Had to go full-CNN "Nazis in the streets" at the first sign that a neighbor might want to liberalize.

Why shift the blame on anybody when everything was going great? Nothing to blame anyone for. Now, economy is shrunk by half. Sometimes I think the only people who manage to do dictatorship well are the Chinese. Everyone else stumbles at some point.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 15 Dec 2017, 14:54
by mixelflick
arian wrote:I said this a year ago: Russian air force in the foreseeable future will be about 100-150 of each Su-35, Su-30 and Su-34. Not enough production or operational capability or money or need for much more.

They can't sacrifice replacing their antiquated fleet of Su-27s, Su-24s and MiG-29s by redirecting resources towards projects like PAK-FA which are already unlikely to match their competitors. They desperately need to replace the junk heap they inherited and haven't upgraded in decades. Priorities.

And they learned their lesson in Syria too: priority is sensors, air-ground weapons, multi-role airplanes, UAVs etc. The alternative is having no real air force for the next 10 years until PAK-FA gets around and then even longer till it rolls out in sufficient numbers.

So I have to give credit to the Russians for actually focusing on realistic goals. They're not going to invade Europe anytime soon, and they will likley be involved in more local conflicts like Syria where such capabilities are needed and appear to be lacking, especially in numerical terms. Continuing to rely on junk Su-24s with Garmin fishing boat GPS, while pretending to be developing 9th generation aircraft, is not realistic.

And yes, I'll echo whoever said it before me: Crimea was totally worth it you guys :roll:


100-150 SU-30's, 34's and 35's is a pretty respectable force though, no? I'm not as well versed in the SU-34 vs its western contemporaries but the SU-30SM's and SU-35 can put up a respectable battle vs. anyone, save perhaps US fifth gen birds the F-22 and F-35.

The SU-35 in particular is a fearsome machine. I'd hate to be an F-15C or 18E/F driver facing that thing. Yes, yes I suppose we still have the edge in radar/avionics/bvr stuff, but nobody takes the Flanker lightly and rightfully so. Apparently, the Russian military and its pilots are stoked with it..

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 15 Dec 2017, 22:03
by arian
mixelflick wrote:
100-150 SU-30's, 34's and 35's is a pretty respectable force though, no? I'm not as well versed in the SU-34 vs its western contemporaries but the SU-30SM's and SU-35 can put up a respectable battle vs. anyone, save perhaps US fifth gen birds the F-22 and F-35.

The SU-35 in particular is a fearsome machine. I'd hate to be an F-15C or 18E/F driver facing that thing. Yes, yes I suppose we still have the edge in radar/avionics/bvr stuff, but nobody takes the Flanker lightly and rightfully so. Apparently, the Russian military and its pilots are stoked with it..


Of course it's a pretty respectable force of 300-400 modern 4th gen planes. And it's realistic and reasonable.

They are fine planes for what they are, I'm not doubting it. The propaganda surrounding them, however, is bit much. Avionics and weapons matter a lot and they are quite behind in those areas. We've discussed this quite a lot here already. When we're talking Su-34, for example, it's radar is still quite far behind what comparable Western 4th gen planes can do in terms of ground capability (SAR etc.), to the point that is is not even comparable to early 80s F-15s. Optical targeting systems are still lacking compared to Western systems (other than that french pod they were able to import, which brings me back to my earlier point that they would have been able to import Western tech had they not screwed that option). Ground-attack weapons too. Although the Russians have introduced "comparable" (on paper) weapons, their numbers and use is obviously not comparable to the US which is why we still see mostly dumb-bomb attacks with Su-34s.

Same for Su-30, which in my opinion is a waste of an airframe. The idea of Su-30 is a multi-role plane to go between dedicated ground attack Su-34 and dedicated air superiority Su-35. But it's worst at both jobs than either. It's radar is substantially below the capabilities of comparable Western planes. Even according to its manufacturer we're talking a radar with a SAR ground resolution of about 10m, which is something US planes were doing in the late 70s early 80s. Same for the weapons it carries: mostly AA-10s still.

Su-35 is the most capable, but again still not at the same level when it comes to avionics (weapons are harder to evaluate, if they have enough R-77s and if the R-77 is in fact a comparable weapon to modern AIM-120s, which it likely isn't). It's radar is still inferior compared to latest AESA radars going into F-15C and Es, but certainly a big step forward for Russians. But that really only leaves Su-35 as a plane that can realistically be compared with Western 4th gen planes. Basically an early 90s level of capability. Not bad, but not stellar.

I think Su-34 and Su-30 should both be abandoned and just focus on multi-role Su-35. 300-400 modern planes is still not a lot, and it reduces even more when you then split the difference among three relatively specialized versions, two of which at least offer no real advantage compared to the 3rd and both are considerably behind Western counterparts.

It's good, and it's realistic. But it's comparable to what the Indians and Chinese have done more than 10 years ago in numerical and technological terms. Not the "we're going to take on F-35s" sort of stuff one sees on the internet.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 16 Dec 2017, 15:47
by XanderCrews
mixelflick wrote:The SU-35 in particular is a fearsome machine. I'd hate to be an F-15C or 18E/F driver facing that thing. Yes, yes I suppose we still have the edge in radar/avionics/bvr stuff, but nobody takes the Flanker lightly and rightfully so. Apparently, the Russian military and its pilots are stoked with it..


We've trained against flankers. We even have a few civvie ones in the states. It's not some new terror it's yet another improved version of the same old Flanker

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 17 Dec 2017, 05:11
by icemaverick
Yup, the Flanker series has always been a tough opponent and certainly the Su-35 is the best of the bunch but it’s not a revolutionary design. It’s an improvement over an old design. The F teens have been getting equally good or better upgrades.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 18 Dec 2017, 05:35
by Corsair1963
The US has already built over 260 F-35's and that number is on the verge of exploding! So, hard to be impressed by a small number of 4/4.5 Generation Flankers.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 18 Dec 2017, 12:04
by tincansailor
Putin had all the support he needed, the economy was doing fine, his foes were nobodys, Russia was emerging on the world scene again as a respectable actor (albeit with all the Olympics toilet jokes), money was flowing in like crazy. They could even buy all the western equipment they wanted for their armed forces. And yet, the crazy dictator just couldn't be happy with that. Couldn't even maintain the appearance of a reasonable government. Had to go full-CNN "Nazis in the streets" at the first sign that a neighbor might want to liberalize.

Why shift the blame on anybody when everything was going great? Nothing to blame anyone for. Now, economy is shrunk by half. Sometimes I think the only people who manage to do dictatorship well are the Chinese. Everyone else stumbles at some point.


I agree it was a mistake to launch an overt invasion of Ukraine, but Russia was hardly in good shape at that time. Russia is dependent on oil revenue, and when the price collapsed their economy was flushed down the toilet. Russia has less then half the population of the old Soviet Union, and it's population is declining. their economic potential is far less then the USSR. The only way Russia can be a Superpower again is to reconstitute a union of ex Soviet Republics under Moscow's leadership.

Next to Russia Ukraine was the largest, richest, and most important republic. Crimea provided the only major ice free naval, and maritime base for Russia. When the corrupt pro Russian regime was overthrown in a popular revolution Putin was bound to have a strong reaction. Not only was it a national humiliation, and a long term economic defeat, for Ukraine to shift it's economic orientation to the West, but it was a personal nightmare for Putin who fears the same type of revolt in Moscow.

Unable to take the whole Ukraine back, Putin settled for the most he could get. Crimea was of great value, and could be taken bloodlessly. The Russian Nationalist regions in Eastern Ukraine had to be taken for domestic political reasons, even though they represented an economic negative. Putin reasoned the resulting damage to relations with the West was worth it, rather then face a backlash from domestic Russian Nationalist forces. He figured the West would get over it, and accept the Russian conquests as a Fait Accompli. He may well be correct in his assumptions. Trump seems perfectly willing to accept them, and remove sanctions.

Dictatorships often appear to be strong, but they stand on weak foundations. Lacking popular support, or legitimate institutions they rely on force, and the fear of force. Lenin spoke for all tyrants when he said that a revolutionary state couldn't survive without terror. The whole structure of Soviet Power in Eastern Europe, and the Soviet Union it's self collapsed because the people lost their fear. A dictatorship leaves no option for change but though revolution, and if the people's fear is less then their desire for change they will take the risk of revolt.

Putin was personally traumatized by the events of the early 1990s. His world view is summed up by his statement that the fall of the Soviet Union was the greatest geo-strategic tragedy of the 20th Century. His greatest fear is that it could happen again, and throw Russia into more turmoil, and could even lead to the fragmentation of the Russian State.

In the early 17th Century the Russian State almost dissolved. The Romanov Dynasty led a nationalist revival that sustained Russia for 300 years. Putin is trying to do the same thing, and he's using the imperial model has his guide. Pageantry, the revival of the Orthodox Church as a State Religion, the use of imperial palaces, and symbols are all attempts to endow the state with a cloak of imperial dignity, and legitimacy.

Imperial pretentions are a powerful psychological force. It's no wonder that Chairman Mao ruled from the Forbidden City. IMHO our British friends would be foolish to abolish the monarchy, they'd lose more then they'd gain. (God save the Queen.) We'll have to see how successful Putin's imperial project is in the long run. History is always a work in progress. Wow I'm so surprised, he's running for reelection next year, for another 6 year term as Imperial President. I wonder if he'll win?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 19 Dec 2017, 00:49
by arian
^^^ Long post by tincan and not a single mention of Trump, Nazis, our impending death at the hands of North Korea, or the beautiful cultural contributions of Puerto Rico?

Surely, it is a holiday miracle.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 19 Dec 2017, 08:37
by tincansailor
arian wrote:^^^ Long post by tincan and not a single mention of Trump, Nazis, our impending death at the hands of North Korea, or the beautiful cultural contributions of Puerto Rico?

Surely, it is a holiday miracle.



Sorry to burst your bubble, I did mention Trump. I said he seems to be willing to lift sanctions, on Russia. In fact he's failed to implement new Russian sanctions passed by Congress this summer. So your with with Trump that some of the Nazis marching in Charlottesville were fine people. You and Trump are only worry about the bad Nazis, I worry about all of them. Do you still stick with your theory that a war with NK would be a piece of cake, (Name your flavor)?

Great news, I heard tonight that 2/3 of Puerto Ricans have their lights on. It's only been three months, what do they expect? Those Spanish speaking Americans, (Are they really American if they can't speak English?) Can't they just thank Trump for the paper towels he throw them? Muchas Gracias El Presidente Trump. You hear it from all the people. The Puerto Ricans love him so much their flooding into Florida just so they can vote for him in 2020, that is if he's still in office by them.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 19 Dec 2017, 10:10
by mas
tincansailor wrote:Imperial pretentions are a powerful psychological force. It's no wonder that Chairman Mao ruled from the Forbidden City. IMHO our British friends would be foolish to abolish the monarchy, they'd lose more then they'd gain. (God save the Queen.) We'll have to see how successful Putin's imperial project is in the long run. History is always a work in progress. Wow I'm so surprised, he's running for reelection next year, for another 6 year term as Imperial President. I wonder if he'll win?


Colonel Igor Strelkov aka Igor Girkin (ex-fsb Russian fighter for Ukrainian rebels) was remarkably loose tongued in his social media posts and public statements. Cued by sources like kievpost and rferl I read his posts casually remarking to people who he argued with online on Russian nationalist forums that an fsb computer spat out the election results every time whereby United Russia party always gets 60%+ and that the Crimean referendum was equally fixed. He also in his time admitted to the downing of a supposed Ukrainian transport that was later identified as MH17.

Putin is part of the fsb deep state that have always run Russia. Elections are just for show to placate the people's desire for debate. Genuine opponents are always barred/killed/imprisoned. I don't think Russians really care either as long as the deep state strongman satisfies either their economic or nationalist interests and to be fair to Putin he does try to on either score.

Putin basically has to stay in power until the day he dies otherwise all the protection money and assets the Oligarchs have paid him will be exposed and he eventually prosecuted/exiled.

The UK will never get rid of the monarchy unless another really arrogant one arises like King Charles I. The reason being that it is a check and balance on a possible tyranny of an elected parliament like what occurred under Oliver Cromwell. That is why it is referred to as Her Majesty's Government even though they solely exercise the power according to their mandate and wishes. The army also technically belongs to her too so again another check so that no elected official ever feels like going Mussolini/Hitler style rogue.

Commoners have recently married into the royal family like Catherine, wife of Prince William as well as soon a biracial American actress, Meghan Markle who is going to marry Prince Harry. Both have proved quite popular with the general public who like this upmarket version of reality TV soap unfolding before them ;). As a rule the monarchy is always more popular and trusted than any government in the UK because the people know they are not after any power as they already technically have it in perpetuity ;).

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 19 Dec 2017, 15:36
by wrightwing
tincansailor wrote:

Sorry to burst your bubble, I did mention Trump. I said he seems to be willing to lift sanctions, on Russia. In fact he's failed to implement new Russian sanctions passed by Congress this summer. So your with with Trump that some of the Nazis marching in Charlottesville were fine people. You and Trump are only worry about the bad Nazis, I worry about all of them. Do you still stick with your theory that a war with NK would be a piece of cake, (Name your flavor)?


Trump never said Nazis, KKK, etc.... are fine people. White supremacists weren't the only people in Charlottesville. The media, and left wing pundits lumped everyone together, as that's the standard narrative.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 19 Dec 2017, 17:53
by mixelflick
I agree with the poster who stated they should just focus on SU-34's/35's. I didn't understand the tech lag in avionics though, so I appreciate the information.

The SU-35 is an incredible machine, but no doubt out classed by the F-22 which it's butting heads with in Syria. What concerns me are the ROE wherein both are within visual range. If things get heated then the SU-35 is in its wheelhouse and the F-22 will have to deal with that. Sure the Raptor can out fly it, but I thought the doctrine was kill them well BVR? It seems foolish for Raptors to be WVR of anything, including Frogfoots.

Russia would like nothing better than to leave Syria with bragging rights by taking a cheap shot and killing a Raptor. Just imagine what that would do for foreign sales of the SU-35. I wouldn't put it past them!

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 19 Dec 2017, 18:18
by icemaverick
In an actual war, the F-22s would fire on the enemy jets from BVR. The United States is not at war with Russia and presumably the F-22 got into visual range with the Russian jets in order to warn them. For all we know, there was another F-22 (or multiple F-22s) in the area tracking and prepared to engage the Flankers. It is indeed a scary situation in Syria and a misunderstanding/miscommunication could lead to a major international event. Let’s hope that both sides will be extremely cautious.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 19 Dec 2017, 20:56
by mas
I suppose the Russians now know exactly how close the Su-35 have to get to detect the F-22 on their radar/irst.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 20 Dec 2017, 01:26
by arian
mas wrote:Cued by sources like kievpost and rferl I read his posts casually remarking to people who he argued with online on Russian nationalist forums that an fsb computer spat out the election results every time whereby United Russia party always gets 60%+


You're underestimating the probability that the Russian people actually like Putin. He hardly needs to cheat to win elections. He was doing a fine job prior to 2015 in growing the economy and improving their lot in life, and in bringing Russia into a more reasonable position on the world stage.

I have little doubt he could get 60% of the vote in any free and fair election at the federal level. At the local level there are more problems, and that's usually where the cheating happens in Russia.

The problem with dictators like Putin (or Erdogan and that sort of type) isn't that they can't get popular support to win elections, at least not the first 5 or 6 times :wink: . It's that over time everything erodes and you can't keep growing the economy and satisfying most of the people, most of the time. Not if they fail to turn the economy into a modern diversified economy that isn't reliant on a single commodity market and on a monopolistic position. If they fail to do that, then long-term prospects of them remaining in power are diminished. But Putin wasn't there yet. He miscalculated. He actually caused an economic collapse that would not have happened on its own.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 20 Dec 2017, 07:08
by Corsair1963
arian wrote:
mas wrote:Cued by sources like kievpost and rferl I read his posts casually remarking to people who he argued with online on Russian nationalist forums that an fsb computer spat out the election results every time whereby United Russia party always gets 60%+


You're underestimating the probability that the Russian people actually like Putin. He hardly needs to cheat to win elections. He was doing a fine job prior to 2015 in growing the economy and improving their lot in life, and in bringing Russia into a more reasonable position on the world stage.

I have little doubt he could get 60% of the vote in any free and fair election at the federal level. At the local level there are more problems, and that's usually where the cheating happens in Russia.

The problem with dictators like Putin (or Erdogan and that sort of type) isn't that they can't get popular support to win elections, at least not the first 5 or 6 times :wink: . It's that over time everything erodes and you can't keep growing the economy and satisfying most of the people, most of the time. Not if they fail to turn the economy into a modern diversified economy that isn't reliant on a single commodity market and on a monopolistic position. If they fail to do that, then long-term prospects of them remaining in power are diminished. But Putin wasn't there yet. He miscalculated. He actually caused an economic collapse that would not have happened on its own.


If, the Russian People saw the real numbers for Putin. Then his support would very likely drop to a point that he would loose! Which, is why he won't even bend a little.....

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 20 Dec 2017, 07:36
by arian
Corsair1963 wrote:If, the Russian People saw the real numbers for Putin. Then his support would very likely drop to a point that he would loose! Which, is why he won't even bend a little.....


What real numbers? If you were a Russian, and you had gone through the 1990s and were faced with the choice of a guy who doubled or tripled your standard of living in the last decade, vs. a pack of hyenas of various other candidates ranging from psychopathic crazies, to old commies promising to return you to bread lines, to a multitude of weird socialists and weird oligarchs who mostly live abroad. You face the choice of a guy who brought stability, economic liberalization etc., or a bunch of unknowns. What would you chose?

Be truthful. Who would you chose, given the options available?

In the West we think people in other countries have the luxury of choosing the perfect and the luxury of ruling out candidates because they made a gaffe or their tax returns aren't public or their genitalia. Trivial and nonsensical issues. You can have that luxury in the US and in developed Western countries (and often to our detriment since we pick people on idiotic reasons, since little else matters). But they don't have that luxury in many other places, including Russia. They have real problems to deal with...not "social justice" retarded problems.

Certainly, I'd vote for Putin if were a Russian. Not a second's doubt.

That being said, he shot himself in the foot for no particular reason with Ukraine and now is paying a heavy price for it. Which is of course the downside of not being able to transition into a modern economy in time.

Now to bring this a LITTLE back on topic to PAK-FA, not being under sanctions would have helped them quite a bit in terms of their lack of technological advancement. The biggest advancements they made in terms of electronics since the end of the Cold War was the acquisition of Western systems like French targeting pods and the acquisition of civilian telecommunication technologies. This directly led to a big jump in technical level for radar development and production, and the jump in capability from their early AESAs to their current AESAs. These are based directly on civilian technology licensed to Russia. They may still be quite behind the West, but they were at least getting an infusion of new technology which they could not have developed on their own. Now, that avenue is blocked once more.

Same for development in computing power which was again the direct result of civilian technologies licensed from the West. Now that is unlikely to happen again in the near future.

They can do airframes and engines, since the West has no particular advantage over Russia in those fields. But electronics are big problem because the West has massive civilian developers and manufacturers to fuel new technologies, whereas Russia has virtually nothing in that regards.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 20 Dec 2017, 09:51
by wrightwing
mas wrote:I suppose the Russians now know exactly how close the Su-35 have to get to detect the F-22 on their radar/irst.

There's no evidence that Flankers detected F-22s, at least in a stealthy configuration. It's a safe bet that the USAF isn't going to give up freebies to the Russians, over Su-25s. The Su-35 flew to where the Su-25s were, which was a known location. Raptors shadowed the Flanker the entire time, not the other way around.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 20 Dec 2017, 11:01
by tincansailor
arian wrote:
mas wrote:Cued by sources like kievpost and rferl I read his posts casually remarking to people who he argued with online on Russian nationalist forums that an fsb computer spat out the election results every time whereby United Russia party always gets 60%+


You're underestimating the probability that the Russian people actually like Putin. He hardly needs to cheat to win elections. He was doing a fine job prior to 2015 in growing the economy and improving their lot in life, and in bringing Russia into a more reasonable position on the world stage.

I have little doubt he could get 60% of the vote in any free and fair election at the federal level. At the local level there are more problems, and that's usually where the cheating happens in Russia.

The problem with dictators like Putin (or Erdogan and that sort of type) isn't that they can't get popular support to win elections, at least not the first 5 or 6 times :wink: . It's that over time everything erodes and you can't keep growing the economy and satisfying most of the people, most of the time. Not if they fail to turn the economy into a modern diversified economy that isn't reliant on a single commodity market and on a monopolistic position. If they fail to do that, then long-term prospects of them remaining in power are diminished. But Putin wasn't there yet. He miscalculated. He actually caused an economic collapse that would not have happened on its own.



Thanks arian for giving us the Worms Eye view of history. "The problem with dictators". In the 90s Russia's economy went into freefall because of the end of government investment, and the corrupt selloff of the public sector of the economy. The lack of rule of law meant that anyone with government, or organized crime support could buy the former assets of the state for pennies on the dollar. Apparatchiks became overnight Billionaires, at the expense of 99% of the population, who lost their savings, and what had been secure incomes. The new Billionaires cashed out, and parked their profits in Western banks, starting a massive capital out flow.

Putin ended the Free for all era of stealing everything you can get your hands on. It was replaced with the standard that only Putin, and his supporters can steal. He was never working to build a modern diversified economy. Effectively ending multiparty democracy created a sense of stability, which encouraged foreign investment, in Russia's mineral based economy. Starting from the incredible low point of the year 2000 Russia's economy, and standard of living went up. Starting, and winning the second Chechen War raised Russian national moral.

After a decade foreign investors started waking up to the effects of what the lack of rule of law meant. Your investments weren't safe. You couldn't freely transfer capital, bribery was the norm, and contract law was a suggestion. Even murder could be employed has a business practice, and businessmen out of favor with the regime were thrown into prison on trumped up charges.

Speaking of Trump, Russian money laundering gave him a new lease on life, after American Banks stopped loaning him money. His multiple bankruptcies, lack of ethics, and management incompetence made him a business pariah. It's amazing what hundreds of millions of dollars of dirty money, and an unreality TV show can do for you. Add $2 Billion of free media and you can make a used car salesman president of the United States. And it did.

Even before sanctions foreign investment was already drying up. The price of oil fell, starving the Russian economy of hard currency. Putin did nothing to change the basic nature of post Cold War Russia. It's a corrupt, anti-democratic, illiberal society, with an xenophobic culture. Even Third World countries are able to use their cheap labor to earn national income, and participate in the global economy, Russia can't even do that. All they can do is sell raw materials. Oil, gas, gold, diamonds, uranium, titanium, you name it. Oh sorry they do sell weapons.

Until the Russian People demand an open society they will continue to be ruled by thugs like Putin. Historically the Russian People have rejected liberal republican values, fearing their own freedom. The Russian People don't expect their leaders to give them a modern diversified economy, they don't know what that is. How can they join the global economy, when they fear, and loath foreigners? All they can understand are appeals to Russian Nationalism.

Trump appeals to the same xenophobic forces in America. The paranoid ideas that everyone in the world hates us, our trading partners are cheating us, global environmental agreements are a conspiracy against us, our allies are getting a free ride, people migrate here to steal jobs, or go on welfare, are all part of a dark pessimistic world view. The Russian People have traditionally believed everyone in the world want's to attack them. Russia will never be a First World Country, and America won't be Great Again until those self defeating ideas are rejected by the people of both counties.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 20 Dec 2017, 13:49
by madrat
Thanks for revealing your true colors. It's obvious you really hate the right and center with your regular undertones. But you LEFT no doubt the way you lean now. You almost verbatim mention crapola my liberal democratic Marxist acquaintance mentions, so absolutely contrary to reality there is absolutely no reason to argue with it. Drugs are bad. Mmmmmkay.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 20 Dec 2017, 14:56
by mixelflick
CLIFFS

* The SU-57 is going to be a long time coming, 2nd stage engine is the main obstacle (though there are others)
* Uprated Flankers will have to carry the load. They fly with early 90's tech by western standards
* Trump haters permeate this thread, one in particular. Everything is Trump's fault. He's a Nazi and you are too if you like him
* Puerto Rico's failure as an entity and their failed culture is America's fault.
* 200,000 more PR's bailed and came to FL to leech off of US taxpayers, no doubt will vote for Democrats to keep the gravy train going

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 20 Dec 2017, 15:00
by milosh
@arian

I wouldn't say sanctions only create trouble for Russia. For example canceling Mistral deal was good thing. That 1billion they got from it would be much wiser to use to fix Kuznetsov (getting MiG-29K instead Su-33 which would solved wire snapping) and to modernize Kirovs then what they would get from two helicopter carriers.

For amphibious landing they will have to Ivan Green ships which are much smaller and cheaper then Mistral and can land tanks directly on shore.

Just to add, french target pod deal was killed lot before sanctions. T220 pod was presented in 2012 and after that you don't hear anymore about licenced Damocles pod.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 20 Dec 2017, 15:09
by milosh
mixelflick wrote:CLIFFS

* The SU-57 is going to be a long time coming, 2nd stage engine is the main obstacle (though there are others)
* Uprated Flankers will have to carry the load. They fly with early 90's tech by western standards
* Trump haters permeate this thread, one in particular. Everything is Trump's fault. He's a Nazi and you are too if you like him
* Puerto Rico's failure as an entity and their failed culture is America's fault.
* 200,000 more PR's bailed and came to FL to leech off of US taxpayers, no doubt will vote for Democrats to keep the gravy train going


Su-57 is more important as whole system then as fighter. This is similar as new tank. In west folks only talk about tank T-14 which they wrongly call Armata, Armata is univesal platform. T-14 as alone is irrelevant no matter how good it is. Older russian tanks are good enough for defensive operations, no need for new tank just for that.

But new platform that is something totally else. You reduce logistical nightmare which USSR left, also you get some very interesting capabilities (new APS for example for all vehicle of Armata family).

Su-57 is in fact, new engine, new sensors and new weapons. All three projects will be used for other fighters, even old MiG-31 which would get new big missile.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 20 Dec 2017, 20:54
by madrat
The Su-35S and Su-57 both use the same engines right now. But when the new Iz.30 comes to full rate production will the Su-35S production resume or stop? And wouldn't it have made sense at least to have Su-34 and Su-30SM3 share the same engines? The Su-30SM should be the top fighter, being an old-school two-seater with the largest available sensor suite since MiG-31BM. So many different tangents being procured right now really waters down the big picture:

Foxhounds
------------------------------------------------
MiG-31BM (N007 Zaslon-AM, D-30)
MiG-31BSM (N007 Zaslon-AM, D-30)

Flankers
------------------------------------------------
Su-27S FLANKER-B (Tikhomirov-NIIP N001 Myech TC-MSA, AL-31F, single-seat, 10 hardpoints; KnAAPO)
Su-27SM FLANKER-B Mod. 1 (mid-life upgrade Su-27S, Phazotron-NIIR N001V TC-MSA, AL-31F w/1-D TVC, new cockpit, modern ECM, single-seat; IAPO)
Su-27SM2 FLANKER-B Mod. 2 (stage II upgrade Su-27SM, Tikhomirov-NIIP N011 Irbis PA-MSA, AL-41F1S, single-seat, glass cockpit, 1,000kg more fuel than Su-27; KnAAPO)
Su-27SM3 (upgraded Su-27S, Phazotron-NIIR Zhuk-MFS, AL-31FM1; KnAAPO)
Su-27UB FLANKER-C (trainer, N011M BARS Hybrid ESA, two-seat; IAPO)
Su-27UBM FLANKER-C (upgraded Su-30KN into trainer, N011M BARS Hybrid ESA, IFR probe, two-seat; IAPO)
-------------canard-----------------------------
Su-30 (Tikhomirov-NIIP N001 Myech TC-MSA, AL-31F, two-seat, canards, IFR probe, multi-role, 200kg more fuel than Su-27; KnAAPO)
Su-30M FLANKER-F (Tikhomirov-NIIP N001 Myech TC-MSA, AL-31F, two-seat, canards, IFR probe, 1st multi-role, 200kg more fuel than Su-27, 12 hardpoints; KnAAPO)
Su-30M2 FLANKER-G (Su-30MK2 originally destined for the PLAAF, but not delivered, Phazotron-NIIR N001VEP, two-seat, canards, IFR probe; KnAAPO)
Su-30SM FLANKER-H (Tikhomirov-NIIP N011M BARS-R Hybrid ESA, AL-31F, two-seat, canards, wide-angle HUD; KnAAPO)
Su-30SM2 FLANKER-H (Tikhomirov-NIIP Irbis, Al-31F, two-seat, canards; IAPO)
Su-30SM3 FLANKER-H (AL-31F-M1, two-seat, canards; KnAAPO)
-------------naval------------------------------
Su-33 Flanker-D (Tikhomirov-NIIP N011 BARS Hybrid ESA, AL-31F3, single-seat, canards, unique folding wings, high-lift devices and a tailhook arresting gear for carrier operations; KnAAPO)
Su-33UB (Tikhomirov-NIIP N011 BARS, AL-31F3, two-seat, canards, unique folding wings, high-lift devices and a tailhook arresting gear for carrier operations; KnAAPO)


Super Flanker
------------------------------------------------
Su-27BM/Su-35BM Flanker-E (Tikhomirov-NIIP N035 Irbis-E PESA, Phazotron-NIIR N-012 tail, AL-41F1S, single-seat, glass cockpit, 1,000kg more fuel than Su-27; KnAAPO)
Su-35S Flanker-E (Tikhomirov-NIIP N035 Irbis-E PESA, AL-41F1S/117S w/3-D TVC, single-seat, IFR probe, all-digital FBW, new MFD's, single-seat, reclined seat; KnAAPO)


Fullback
------------------------------------------------
Su-34 Fullback ( V004 PESA, Phazotron-NIIR N-012 tail, AL-31FM1, side-by-side two-seat, 10,000kg more fuel than Su-27, canards; NAPO)

PAKFA
------------------------------------------------
T-50 ( Tikhomirov-NIIP N035 Irbis-E, AL-41F1/117, six hardpoints)
Su-57 (Tikhomirov-NIIP N036 Byelka AESA, AL4-1F3/Iz.30)

Fulcrums
------------------------------------------------
MiG-29 (Tikhomirov-NIIP N019 Rubin)
MiG-29B (Phazotron-NIIR N019 Sapfir 29)
MiG-29S/9.13 Fulcrum-C (Phazotron-NIIR N019M, limited ground attack, fatback)
MiG-29SMT/9.17 Fulcrum-E (upgrade 9.12/9.13, Phazotron-NIIR Zhuk-ME PESA, RD-33 ser.3, new MFD's, improved HOTAS, fatback)
MiG-29UBT/9.51T (SMT upgrades to MiG-29UB)
MiG-29M/9.15 Fulcrum-E (redesigned airframe, Phazotron-NIIR Zhuk-AE AESA, RD-33MK, IFR probe, all-digital FBW, new MFD's, improved HOTAS, single-seat)
-------------naval------------------------------
MiG-29K (Phazotron-NIIR Zhuk-ME PESA)
MiG-29KUB/9.47 Fulcrum-D (trainer version of MiG-29K, Phazotron-NIIR Zhuk-ME PESA)

Feel free to correct anything in this list...

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 20 Dec 2017, 22:52
by swiss
Thanks for this list Madrat. Interesting.

And all this Birds are all still in service by now in the Russian AF? :shock:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 20 Dec 2017, 23:16
by mas
Tincansailor: good analysis on post communist Russia. As for Trump he was just looking for a unique angle to get elected in a sea of republicans and the nationalist one worked for him although to be fair I thought Clinton was an unbalanced psycho who was more likely to inadvertently start WW3 with Russia than any prospective presidential candidate ever had. To also be fair to Trump again I do like his politically incorrect honesty about matters which is a refreshing change from career politicians and their perennial lying BS. The democrats only have themselves to blame for cheating Sanders out of the nomination because at that point they gave Trump the win because Sanders probably would have beaten him given his lack of historical baggage and more amenable personality.

As for the Russians traditionally fearing everyone wants to attack them well history has proven them right because everyone of their neighbors who have got powerful and full have coveted their excess land for their own population. In the last few centuries it was Europeans like Sweden, France, Germany and in this millennium it would have been the Chinese and Indians if Russia was not so armed to the teeth with nuclear and conventional weapons. It's funny how history has formed because Russia basically sprang from Slavic and Nordic Europeans invading Asia and taking land from Mongol and Turkish races. They sure scooped up a lot of land doing so which everyone has wanted since over the centuries.

As for Su-57 it makes sense to wait for the new engine before going into full production otherwise it's just an overweight Su-35 which is a little stealthier. They will not get the full performance and range improvements of the new airframe with the Su-35's engines. The Su-35 I also see outliving the Su-30MK because it has actually had some stealth work done on it as well as having better engines, radar and sensors.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 20 Dec 2017, 23:50
by arian
milosh wrote:@arian

I wouldn't say sanctions only create trouble for Russia. For example canceling Mistral deal was good thing. That 1billion they got from it would be much wiser to use to fix Kuznetsov (getting MiG-29K instead Su-33 which would solved wire snapping) and to modernize Kirovs then what they would get from two helicopter carriers.

For amphibious landing they will have to Ivan Green ships which are much smaller and cheaper then Mistral and can land tanks directly on shore.

Just to add, french target pod deal was killed lot before sanctions. T220 pod was presented in 2012 and after that you don't hear anymore about licenced Damocles pod.


Of course, once you get the technology, no need to license anymore. The Mistral deal was more to get modern ship-building know how that it was for the ships itself. I don't think spending money on rust-bucket Kuznetsov was a better deal then getting modern carrier building technology from the French (which was the intention in the first place). We all know why the Russians were buying these things in the first place.

milosh wrote:Su-57 is more important as whole system then as fighter. This is similar as new tank. In west folks only talk about tank T-14 which they wrongly call Armata, Armata is univesal platform. T-14 as alone is irrelevant no matter how good it is. Older russian tanks are good enough for defensive operations, no need for new tank just for that.

But new platform that is something totally else. You reduce logistical nightmare which USSR left, also you get some very interesting capabilities (new APS for example for all vehicle of Armata family).

Su-57 is in fact, new engine, new sensors and new weapons. All three projects will be used for other fighters, even old MiG-31 which would get new big missile.


None of the new sensors, engines or weapons couldn't have been developed independently of PAK-FA. In fact, they already were/are. The technology is common to multiple of the newer Russian planes since it's all produced by the same company in the first place (the components are anyway).

This "it's a system" argument makes little sense to me. None of those elements are dependent on each other, and none are revolutionary in that they could only have come about as a result of PAK-FA. Same for Armata. Those new "APS" are little more than evolution of the same APS which has been developed in USSR since mid 1980s. Over the years it has appeared in numerous variants on numerous previous prototypes before Armata. Even in other ex-USSR countries it has appeared in similar variants.

swiss wrote:And all this Birds are all still in service by now in the Russian AF?


Some of those are just prototypes, not necessarily in-service planes.

madrat wrote:The Su-35S and Su-57 both use the same engines right now. But when the new Iz.30 comes to full rate production will the Su-35S production resume or stop? And wouldn't it have made sense at least to have Su-34 and Su-30SM3 share the same engines? The Su-30SM should be the top fighter, being an old-school two-seater with the largest available sensor suite since MiG-31BM. So many different tangents being procured right now really waters down the big picture:


Part of the reason is to keep various production lines open, since each is produced by different manufacturer even through they are all "Sukhoi" designs. Su-34 is built in Novosibirsk, Su-30 is built in Irkut, Su-35 is built in Komsomolsk-on-Amur. You've got to keep all three busy, so all three get build.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 21 Dec 2017, 00:28
by madrat
I don't believe the list I made was anything concerning prototypes. It's like the Su-27BM/Su-35BM, many more were actually produced than I thought. Not all Su-27SM were converted to Su-27SM2, nor have all Su-27S been upgrades to Su-30SM3. Add on the fact that the production line for some of the old versions were simply converted to build the newer versions. It's a huge procurement mess. Surprisingly enough the Russians still have the early Su-27's and Su-30's in service!

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 21 Dec 2017, 00:48
by arian
madrat wrote:I don't believe the list I made was anything concerning prototypes. It's like the Su-27BM/Su-35BM, many more were actually produced than I thought. Not all Su-27SM were converted to Su-27SM2, nor have all Su-27S been upgrades to Su-30SM3. Add on the fact that the production line for some of the old versions were simply converted to build the newer versions. It's a huge procurement mess. Surprisingly enough the Russians still have the early Su-27's and Su-30's in service!


Some are definitely prototypes. MiG-29 modernization with AESA for example is not actually going into service (yet). Su-30 with Irbis is not going into service (if it was ever built). Su-35BM isn't going into service.

And a lot of these other versions were early versions produced in small batches and bought for trials or limited use over a couple of decades, but for now it seems they have standardized on a single type of Su-27 modernization, Su-30 modernization and Su-35.

It's no more confusing than all the F-16 blocks out there, although each F-16 block was build in large quantities. But nonetheless, about as confusing.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 21 Dec 2017, 01:09
by arian
milosh wrote:Just to add, french target pod deal was killed lot before sanctions. T220 pod was presented in 2012 and after that you don't hear anymore about licenced Damocles pod.


Just to add a bit on this, Democles was licensed to the Ural plant in 2008. The Ural plant is the one which then produced the indigenous Russian pods several years later. The tech transfer was real, and by that time there was no longer a need to produce the French design. Same sort of tech transfer between France and Russia happened with Sagem who transferred their Matis-LR thermal imaging technology to Russia in 2014. Same of course for tanks, with Thales selling Catherine thermal imaging technology to Russia, which then become Sosna-U which upgraded T-90s. Prior to this French tech transfer they only had passive image intensifiers (which is horrifying to think that into the 2010s they had no thermal sights at all)

All of these things allowed Russia to advance in this field in a short period of time.

Same thing we saw with the licensing of civilian telecommunication technology for the production of antenna elements which went directly into the advancement of their latest generation of AESA.

Good or bad, this was a realistic and fruitful collaboration for Russia; big and needed developments. These things are now closed. They may seem small, but these were huge leaps and bounds for Russia since up till that time they were basically still stuck with what was left over from USSR days and very little advancement was made in these critical technologies.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 21 Dec 2017, 01:45
by arian
But new platform that is something totally else. You reduce logistical nightmare which USSR left, also you get some very interesting capabilities (new APS for example for all vehicle of Armata family).


To expand a bit more on this: the APS used on the family of vehicles is the evolutionary design of the old Drozd system first deployed in 1983 in Afghanistan. Fixed HE rounds fired based on radar detection of incoming projectile. The system evolved from about early/mid 1970s from a system called Veer-3 which fired basically HE shells in the direction of an incoming round, into Drozd deployed in the field, into Drozd-2 in mid-1990s which was a smaller version, and then into Afghanit on Armata. It's far from a new system. (Veer-3 BTW was not the first APS system. The first in the world was developed and tested by Germany in late 60s. That one worked on shape charges rather than HE grenades.)

Of course just about everyone else has also developed similar HE-grande style systems since the 1990 (and many other configurations besides HE projectiles).

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 21 Dec 2017, 01:50
by madrat
Su-30SM2 most certainly was built with Irbis. People sometimes refer to Su-35BM as Su-30S, which is strange considering it's a single-seat. The canards make it similar to an Su-30, but that's about the only similarities as its basis is Su-27M. Su-35BM were only fielded in LRIP and they were diverted to the Russian White Knights aerobatics team. All are still combat capable.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 21 Dec 2017, 03:16
by arian
madrat wrote: People sometimes refer to Su-35BM as Su-30S, which is strange considering it's a single-seat. The canards make it similar to an Su-30, but that's about the only similarities as its basis is Su-27M. Su-35BM were only fielded in LRIP and they were diverted to the Russian White Knights aerobatics team. All are still combat capable.


Russian Knights only have Su-30SMs now and prior to that had Su-27s. As far as I know, they never had Su-35BM. Su-35BM was a designation for the export version of Su-35, which was never build other than in a single prototypes (again, as far as I know. Please provide evidence to the contrary if you have it).

Su-30SM2 most certainly was built with Irbis.


I can find no evidence of this. The only evidence is some newspaper article claiming that Komsomolsk-on-Amur will deliver 5 "Su-30SM2". But Komsomolsk-on-Amur makes Su-30M2 (which is the Russian designation for non-canard export Su-30MK2). And every other source says these are actually Su-30M2. Su-30SM (Russian designation for canard export Su-30MKI) is made by Irkut.

No such thing as "Su-30SM2" even appears to exist or have ever been build, as far as I can tell.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 21 Dec 2017, 03:34
by madrat
Probably because it was built at IAPO, not KnAPPO.

Image

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 21 Dec 2017, 06:03
by arian
Ok I stand corrected. They had 6 of these "Su-35" versions.

However, these are not "Su-35BM". These are the first Su-35 prototypes called "Su-27M". They still had Bars radars. Not sure what has happened to them by now, but I don't think they were ever "in-service" types as they did not perform well in trials. So not sure they were ever assigned to any combat units. Several others were pure prototypes and still serve as test-bed aircraft.

These were also the platform on which that single "Su-37" version was build on.

This is actually not the "Su-35" as we know it today, but a dead-end project that started in the 1980s with the T-10M. These planes were build in the late-80s early-90s, but the design went nowhere. The Su-35 in its new incarnation is a "new" design from the 2000s not based on the T-10M (Su-27M) airframe. So still not "Su-35BM".

Probably because it was built at IAPO, not KnAPPO.


Irkut doesn't mention any such designation or variant as "Su-30SM2". It talks about Su-30SM. All its announcements on its website and fulfillment of such orders talk of Su-30SM.

So several of those variants and designations, from what I can tell, refer to either prototypes or the designations are mixed up. There was no "Su-27BM" for example, but rather T-10BM which is the factory designation for what become the Su-35S; ie T-10BM (Su-27BM) is actually the new Su-35 incarnation which is different from the failed prior "Su-35" (Su-27M) incarnation based on T-10M. As such, these are not operational types or separate Su-35 variants.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 21 Dec 2017, 06:37
by madrat
I don't know why your google-fu is so weak. The Su-35BM was not Su-35-1 or Su-35B. Once again you're misrepresenting Su-35BM. There were eight Su-35BM, not six. And there were five times that many of the Su-27M that you spoke about. Realize Su-35BM was considered overweight and underperforming, hence Su-35S was a new modernized Su-35BM offshoot. It's kind of a Russian trend to build an old thing using a newer frame with COTS technology.

I made it easy for you to decypher which form of Su-30SM was the modification 2 versus modification 3. IAPO makes a different Su-30SM than KnAPPO. Really, it's not difficult to follow. And I reviewed several sources to verify each model.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 21 Dec 2017, 06:58
by arian
You're still wrong. Those are Su-27M, not BM. Nor Su-35BM. T-10BM was the designation for Su-35S we see today.

5 times that many Su-27Ms??? There were a total of 12 build including all the prototypes and the test beds etc. 6 "production" airframes which were not assigned to any combat units (as far as I know). Dead-end project that ended in early-mid 90s.

Irkut and Komsomol don't both make Su-30SM. Komsomol makes Su-30M2 (Su-30M--K--2 where the K is for commercial is dropped). Irkut makes Su-30SM. You can check their websites. Go to primary sources, as there is lots of stuff on the internet that makes lots of untrue claims. In any case, no Irbis-equipped Su-30 in service or produced.

Here you go: https://su27flankerfamily.wordpress.com ... 27m-su-35/

Every Su-27M photographed and evidenced, and the 5 (not 6 as I said earlier) that served with the Russian Knights, and apparently are not no longer flyable.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 21 Dec 2017, 09:14
by swiss
Very interesting to read arian

arian wrote: MiG-29 modernization with AESA for example is not actually going into service (yet).


What is your opinion why the Russian build the Mig-35 without AESA. Money?

Also interesting on which level is a T-90 Vladimir, compare to the latest variants of western Tanks. Like Leopard 2, M1 Abrams, Leclerc and Challenger 2 ?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 21 Dec 2017, 09:51
by arian
swiss wrote:What is your opinion why the Russian build the Mig-35 without AESA. Money?


More likely not a mature radar yet and lack of production capability. They supposedly only got the ability to produce AESA elements last year. I don't know how long it takes to actually produce operational radars, test them, get them in service and then begin production, but probably too long for the first batch of upgraded MiG-29s.

Also interesting on which level is a T-90 Vladimir, compare to the latest variants of western Tanks. Like Leopard 2, M1 Abrams, Leclerc and Challenger 2 ?


I don't know. Tanks today are all appearing to be very vulnerable to all sorts of things. Tactics, crew and sensors will win the day at the end rather than inherent tank design. Although the welded turret of the latest T-90 is a huge improvement over the prior cast turrets which had a lot of weak spots (nearly 1/5 the frontal turret was a weak spot in the cast designs), it is still likely vulnerable at any combat range to any Western 120mm round, especially if said rounds are able to defeat Kontakt-5 ERA (as they are claimed to do). OTOH, ammunition is still a big weakness of Russian tanks as none of them are likely to be able to defeat modern Western tank frontal armor. But as we've seen, frontal armor etc aren't all that important in today's battlefield where so many threats can appear from all sides. ATGMs appear to be a bigger threat to tanks today than other tanks, especially since nobody has a whole lot of tanks anymore for much other than small skirmishes.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 21 Dec 2017, 12:56
by hornetfinn
arian wrote:
swiss wrote:What is your opinion why the Russian build the Mig-35 without AESA. Money?


More likely not a mature radar yet and lack of production capability. They supposedly only got the ability to produce AESA elements last year. I don't know how long it takes to actually produce operational radars, test them, get them in service and then begin production, but probably too long for the first batch of upgraded MiG-29s.


Besides producing components and putting them together there is also the software that needs to be developed and tested. In AESAs most things are done with software and there needs to be much more software than in MSA or PESA radars. Software has required a lot of work and caused quite major delays in many AESA radars. Software allows a lot of things not possible otherwise, but it also requires a lot of hard work to get right. Of course it also means that requirements for computing hardware are higher. AESA tech is great, but not easy to get right. It has taken pretty much 10-15 years to develop an operational fighter AESA from Western countries and I doubt Russia will have any easier time.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 21 Dec 2017, 15:08
by XanderCrews
arian wrote:^^^ Long post by tincan and not a single mention of Trump, Nazis, our impending death at the hands of North Korea, or the beautiful cultural contributions of Puerto Rico?

Surely, it is a holiday miracle.



Do we inform the mods that he has been hacked? or just play along?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 21 Dec 2017, 15:23
by XanderCrews
swiss wrote:
Also interesting on which level is a T-90 Vladimir, compare to the latest variants of western Tanks. Like Leopard 2, M1 Abrams, Leclerc and Challenger 2 ?



I'll risk being called a fanboy, but western Tanks are better . The russians are still usong derivitives of derivitives.

Maybe the most interesting thing about Russia is that they can't play war like the USSR could. They have to reinvent themselves. Swarming cheap tanks won't work when you don't have the same swarm. At the tail end of the USSR we were seeing the light bulb turn on in terms of quality vs quantity

Netcentric warfare is the future. Abrams may be a mile apart in the next ground battle. It won't be like 1991. But the results for Russian tanks will be the same.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 21 Dec 2017, 17:34
by collimatrix
swiss wrote:Also interesting on which level is a T-90 Vladimir, compare to the latest variants of western Tanks. Like Leopard 2, M1 Abrams, Leclerc and Challenger 2 ?


T-90 is substantially behind the current generation of Western MBTs, although the latest variants have narrowed the gap.

The best Soviet tanks were generally better than their Western counterparts until the Leo 2/M1 Abrams generation, which leapfrogged Soviet technology by an enormous margin that they simply never recovered. It should be noted that the majority of the Soviet tank park was not comprised of their latest and greatest, however, and that it was always bulked out with older models. The same was usually true of NATO forces, however.

It remains to be seen whether the T-14 Armata regains parity with Western designs, but the T-90 family does not.

T-90 is simply a heavily upgraded T-72, which means that it is stuck with many of the design compromises of the old T-72 design. These design compromises include a transmission that is very compact, but that limits the tank's maneuverability, a suspension design that doesn't have as much shock absorption as the latest models, and a frontal hull armor package that has a huge notch in the top.

arian wrote:Although the welded turret of the latest T-90 is a huge improvement over the prior cast turrets which had a lot of weak spots (nearly 1/5 the frontal turret was a weak spot in the cast designs)


The welded turret of the T-90A doesn't really provide better coverage than the cast turret of the baseline T-90.

Image

The big center of mass weakpoints from the thinner gun mantlet and the notch in the glacis for the driver's position, along with the gaps in reactive armor coverage are about the same. The parts that are well covered are even better protected, but the gaps in the protection are largely unchanged.

it is still likely vulnerable at any combat range to any Western 120mm round, especially if said rounds are able to defeat Kontakt-5 ERA (as they are claimed to do). OTOH, ammunition is still a big weakness of Russian tanks as none of them are likely to be able to defeat modern Western tank frontal armor.


Russian ammunition technology may be somewhat behind the West, although that stuff is pretty secret sauce now so it's hard to say. One thing that can be stated with certainty is that the Russian 125mm smoothbore is a lot weaker than the German 120mm smoothbore. So even with parity in ammunition technology, the 125 still wouldn't hit as hard.

120mm ammunition is much larger, and the guns are rated to slightly higher pressure. On top of that, 120mm ammunition is one-piece, which allows for longer penetrators. With current technology it's better to make penetrators longer rather than faster.

But as we've seen, frontal armor etc aren't all that important in today's battlefield where so many threats can appear from all sides. ATGMs appear to be a bigger threat to tanks today than other tanks, especially since nobody has a whole lot of tanks anymore for much other than small skirmishes.


Most of the recent ATGM-heavy conflicts have been insurgency-type conflicts where one sides armor forces have been what they can scrounge and capture from regular forces, so I'm not sure that they're indicative of how armor would be employed in a symmetrical fight. Furthermore, a lot of the tanks being killed with ATGMs are older T-72 variants without thermal optics. ATGM teams would be a lot less survivable if the tanks they were hunting could see their body heat.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 21 Dec 2017, 18:48
by mixelflick
Wow, never realized there were so many flavors of Flanker. With respect to SU-57 I think the truth lies somewhere between the Russian IOC of 2019 and 2027. So let's call it 2022. By then, what kind of F-22 upgrades will be in effect?

Helmet mounted sight? New radars? How about an up-rated engine? The engine to me is the most intriguing. The USAF has consistently referred to it as in the "35,000" class". Wouldn't it make sense to upgrade those once the SU-57 is entering service/the J-20 is maturing?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 21 Dec 2017, 21:02
by mas
Does the F-22 really need an engine upgrade ? Its current ones are perfect for high altitude supercruising and even the F-35 won't have an engine upgrade by 2022. Engine upgrades can be looked at in the 2030-40 timeframe if at all. F-22's most pressing need is for an IRST/LRF like EOTS or preferably EOTS 2 so it can identify and target aircraft/ground targets at range passively. Then the HMS so it's more quicker in combat decision making. Finally a full MADL translator would be nice as would be cheek mounted AESA to increase the radar FOV.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 21 Dec 2017, 22:56
by arian
collimatrix wrote:The welded turret of the T-90A doesn't really provide better coverage than the cast turret of the baseline T-90.

The big center of mass weakpoints from the thinner gun mantlet and the notch in the glacis for the driver's position, along with the gaps in reactive armor coverage are about the same. The parts that are well covered are even better protected, but the gaps in the protection are largely unchanged.


True, but it's still a lot better than previous cast turrets. The frontal mantlet is a weak spot for all tanks, it's just a matter of how weak and how large it is. Size wise its about the same as on Abrams, and strength wise: who knows. But it represents a much larger % of frontal area than Abrams. OTOH, prior cast turrets had much larger weak spots besides the mantlet area. Due to it being cast, there were large gaps where there could not be any "composite" armor (it is all mostly NERA these days), plus the top of the turret that was heavily sloped was still a weak zone due to it being thin cast steel. Only the cheeks were basically protected by NERA inserts (to some extent).

There was a picture form a Soviet publication where they tested T-72B against 100mm and 125mm APFSDS rounds and it showed that about 1/3 of the frontal turret was vulnerable to even 100mm rounds, and half was vulnerable to both. So huge weak zones.

Welded turret removes most of these, especially the gaps in NERA coverage due to casting shape, and the top slope of the turret (which alone is about 1/3 of the profile of the turret). And the mantlet weak zone is bumped up to some degree. So overall a better design.

Also I'm not sure K-5 coverage is the same. It's the same in older cast-turret T-90 (basically 0 frontal coverage of K-5). But in later versions it's a lot better.

In any case, none of this really matters much as latest 120mm rounds will still penetrate it mostly everywhere from 2,000m range. And its weakness is still ammo and sensors.

collimatrix wrote:Most of the recent ATGM-heavy conflicts have been insurgency-type conflicts where one sides armor forces have been what they can scrounge and capture from regular forces, so I'm not sure that they're indicative of how armor would be employed in a symmetrical fight. Furthermore, a lot of the tanks being killed with ATGMs are older T-72 variants without thermal optics. ATGM teams would be a lot less survivable if the tanks they were hunting could see their body heat.


I don't know. We saw it in Ukraine too. Hundreds of tanks destroyed. That was the closest to a "real" war with "advanced" opponents we've seen since Desert Storm. Very few of those tanks were destroyed by other tanks, and most fell to ATGMs, mines, RPGs, and artillery.

And those insurgent conflicts in the ME may be different, but still even insurgents with ATGMs are destroying somewhere between 600-1,000 Syrian tanks in the course of this war. And we've seen about a dozen Abrams destroyed by ATGMs as well. All in all, doesn't look too good for tanks (of course accounting for tactics of both sides). It appears what matters most is air power, combined arms, and situational awareness. Armor of the tank seems to be last resort. If you get to the point where you get hit, it's probably already too late.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 21 Dec 2017, 23:13
by swiss
Thanks for all your answers.

arian wrote:
More likely not a mature radar yet and lack of production capability. They supposedly only got the ability to produce AESA elements last year. I don't know how long it takes to actually produce operational radars, test them, get them in service and then begin production, but probably too long for the first batch of upgraded MiG-29s.


hornetfinn wrote:
Besides producing components and putting them together there is also the software that needs to be developed and tested. In AESAs most things are done with software and there needs to be much more software than in MSA or PESA radars. Software has required a lot of work and caused quite major delays in many AESA radars. Software allows a lot of things not possible otherwise, but it also requires a lot of hard work to get right. Of course it also means that requirements for computing hardware are higher. AESA tech is great, but not easy to get right. It has taken pretty much 10-15 years to develop an operational fighter AESA from Western countries and I doubt Russia will have any easier time.


So still a long way for the Russians. Its a bit ironic, that "the west" give them the key for the AESA technology. Or at least to develop it faster.

XanderCrews wrote:Maybe the most interesting thing about Russia is that they can't play war like the USSR could. They have to reinvent themselves. Swarming cheap tanks won't work when you don't have the same swarm. At the tail end of the USSR we were seeing the light bulb turn on in terms of quality vs quantity


True. When you see the Military budget of the USSR at the end of 80s, and what they have know.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... xpenditure

But to be fair the Russian should have 500-600 T-90 according to wiki. Not bad.

collimatrix wrote:T-90 is substantially behind the current generation of Western MBTs, although the latest variants have narrowed the gap.

The best Soviet tanks were generally better than their Western counterparts until the Leo 2/M1 Abrams generation, which leapfrogged Soviet technology by an enormous margin that they simply never recovered. It should be noted that the majority of the Soviet tank park was not comprised of their latest and greatest, however, and that it was always bulked out with older models. The same was usually true of NATO forces, however.

It remains to be seen whether the T-14 Armata regains parity with Western designs, but the T-90 family does not.

T-90 is simply a heavily upgraded T-72, which means that it is stuck with many of the design compromises of the old T-72 design. These design compromises include a transmission that is very compact, but that limits the tank's maneuverability, a suspension design that doesn't have as much shock absorption as the latest models, and a frontal hull armor package that has a huge notch in the top.

The welded turret of the T-90A doesn't really provide better coverage than the cast turret of the baseline T-90.

Image

The big center of mass weakpoints from the thinner gun mantlet and the notch in the glacis for the driver's position, along with the gaps in reactive armor coverage are about the same. The parts that are well covered are even better protected, but the gaps in the protection are largely unchanged.

Russian ammunition technology may be somewhat behind the West, although that stuff is pretty secret sauce now so it's hard to say. One thing that can be stated with certainty is that the Russian 125mm smoothbore is a lot weaker than the German 120mm smoothbore. So even with parity in ammunition technology, the 125 still wouldn't hit as hard.

120mm ammunition is much larger, and the guns are rated to slightly higher pressure. On top of that, 120mm ammunition is one-piece, which allows for longer penetrators. With current technology it's better to make penetrators longer rather than faster.

Most of the recent ATGM-heavy conflicts have been insurgency-type conflicts where one sides armor forces have been what they can scrounge and capture from regular forces, so I'm not sure that they're indicative of how armor would be employed in a symmetrical fight. Furthermore, a lot of the tanks being killed with ATGMs are older T-72 variants without thermal optics. ATGM teams would be a lot less survivable if the tanks they were hunting could see their body heat.


Thanks for your inside view of modern Tanks collimatrix. :thumb:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 22 Dec 2017, 00:50
by terrygedran
milosh wrote:@arian

I wouldn't say sanctions only create trouble for Russia. For example canceling Mistral deal was good thing. That 1billion they got from it would be much wiser to use to fix Kuznetsov (getting MiG-29K instead Su-33 which would solved wire snapping) and to modernize Kirovs then what they would get from two helicopter carriers.

For amphibious landing they will have to Ivan Green ships which are much smaller and cheaper then Mistral and can land tanks directly on shore.

Just to add, french target pod deal was killed lot before sanctions. T220 pod was presented in 2012 and after that you don't hear anymore about licenced Damocles pod.


Ivan Green is a piece of sh*t and money thrown to the wind.
Even the Ministry of Defense considered the concept of their use obsolete.
The construction of these ships is absolutely not covered lobbing and corruption.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 22 Dec 2017, 01:13
by terrygedran
swiss wrote:Very interesting to read arian

arian wrote: MiG-29 modernization with AESA for example is not actually going into service (yet).


What is your opinion why the Russian build the Mig-35 without AESA. Money?

Also interesting on which level is a T-90 Vladimir, compare to the latest variants of western Tanks. Like Leopard 2, M1 Abrams, Leclerc and Challenger 2 ?



T-90 Vladimir was accepted in service in 1992 (deep modernization of the T-72B tank)
M1A2 (1992 год)
Leopard 2A4 85-92
-------------
T-90A "Vladimir" (object 188A1)

is produced since 2004, the V-92S2 engine with a capacity of 1000 liters has been installed. with., improved thermal imaging equipment, installed a welded tower instead of cast, strengthened booking of the upper frontal parts of the shell, a new system of PPO. Since 2004 the TVP-2 generation "Buran-M" has been installed, since 2006 the thermal sight of the second generation "Essa" (modification of Catherine-FC on the tanks of the first series and Catherine-XG on the tanks of the 2009 edition) has been installed, the automatic loading mechanism has been improved the booked volume increased by 100 liters. Adopted in 2005.

T-90A
46,5t B-92S2, 1000 hp
125-мм 2А46М/2А46М-5 with 9K119M Reflex-M(~900mm)
Thickness of the tower armor in the frontal part 950mm

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 22 Dec 2017, 01:19
by terrygedran
arian wrote:



And those insurgent conflicts in the ME may be different, but still even insurgents with ATGMs are destroying somewhere between 600-1,000 Syrian tanks in the course of this war. And we've seen about a dozen Abrams destroyed by ATGMs as well. All in all, doesn't look too good for tanks (of course accounting for tactics of both sides). It appears what matters most is air power, combined arms, and situational awareness. Armor of the tank seems to be last resort. If you get to the point where you get hit, it's probably already too late.


600-1,000 Syrian tanks

"T-55"

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 22 Dec 2017, 02:15
by arian
terrygedran wrote:600-1,000 Syrian tanks

"T-55"


At least half are T-72s. 300 are confirmed from photos and videos.

Go back to copy-pasting Wikipedia.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 22 Dec 2017, 02:48
by XanderCrews
terrygedran wrote:
T-90 Vladimir was accepted in service in 1992 (deep modernization of the T-72B tank)
M1A2 (1992 год)
Leopard 2A4 85-92
-------------
T-90A "Vladimir" (object 188A1)

is produced since 2004, the V-92S2 engine with a capacity of 1000 liters has been installed. with., improved thermal imaging equipment, installed a welded tower instead of cast, strengthened booking of the upper frontal parts of the shell, a new system of PPO. Since 2004 the TVP-2 generation "Buran-M" has been installed, since 2006 the thermal sight of the second generation "Essa" (modification of Catherine-FC on the tanks of the first series and Catherine-XG on the tanks of the 2009 edition) has been installed, the automatic loading mechanism has been improved the booked volume increased by 100 liters. Adopted in 2005.

T-90A
46,5t B-92S2, 1000 hp
125-мм 2А46М/2А46М-5 with 9K119M Reflex-M(~900mm)
Thickness of the tower armor in the frontal part 950mm


The more fuel the better. Tired of the same old explosions and cook offs.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 22 Dec 2017, 02:52
by XanderCrews
arian wrote:
terrygedran wrote:600-1,000 Syrian tanks

"T-55"


At least half are T-72s. 300 are confirmed from photos and videos.

Go back to copy-pasting Wikipedia.



It's the same crap they always say. Just like how that "wasn't real communism" its never a "real t-72" it's the "monkey model", "dumb arabs", "misemployed" insert excuse. Now those T-72s getting smoked by 1970s era ATGMs have morphed to T-55 right before your own lying eyes!

These things are junk we figured that out after we killed them in droves after respecting them for years and years only to find out the Russians can't do basic things like blowout ammo lockers, or crew protection.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 22 Dec 2017, 03:19
by arian
XanderCrews wrote:Now those T-72s getting smoked by 1970s era ATGMs have morphed to T-55 right before your own lying eyes!


To be fair, Turkish Leo2s were also being smoked by the same missiles in Syria. Soviet designs are especially vulnerable, but all tanks are appearing too vulnerable these days.

All these recent wars have been massacres of tanks, and very few of them inflicted by other tanks. 265 tanks destroyed in Ukraine (at least the ones confirmed by photos): 84 Russian and 181 Ukrainian. Probably less than 10% inflicted by other tanks. 300++ T-72s in Syria: probably 1% inflicted by other tanks.

The demise of the tank as a primary weapon of war has been prematurely declared many times before. But this time it's getting pretty close.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 22 Dec 2017, 07:15
by arian
Here's that picture I was talking about: T-72B frontal armor evaluated against BM-8 100mm round (~300mm penetration) and BM-26 125mm round (~400mm penetration). 1/3 of the frontal turret is <300mm protection, and over half is <400mm protection.

Image

As you can see the cast design is so poor that even in the cheeks, nearly 1/3 of the profile is still just steel and no special armor insert.

So all those claims of "monkey models!" are kind of pointless. Monkey model or not, the base armor of all of these is the same. Only the cheek inserts differ. And even this T-72B that by the time was latest Soviet version is paper-thin compared to the capabilities of US rounds. It would have been dead just the same. In those few cases where you even have to shoot at a tank from the front, as most cases were probably side shots.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 22 Dec 2017, 07:31
by madrat
Battle buses will eventually replace tanks. Big semi armored city bus sized automatons that have the ability to take massive beatings and continue to fight because of their massive redundant control pathways. Hit them with big bombs they just bounce. Like a cat it lands on its feet so to speak. Shoot it with1 million rounds of AP heavy bore machine-gun fire and it doesn't miss a beat. Even it's battery and fuel is networked so there is no way to kill it without pretty well throwing so much firepower at it it's a net loss in the favor of the automaton. Keep it simple to make, stuff it with networked fiber optics for redundant communication among its internal cells. Give it 1,000 electronic eyeballs. Make it impossible to burn. Make it light. But most of all give it enough punch to make it lethal.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 22 Dec 2017, 09:25
by jj284b
If last conflicts show us anything, then its lack of training and lack of skill of commanders that caused all those tanks to get killed.. plus, technology matters - you cannot expect sending tanks made in 1980 against enemy armed with modern ATGM and expect them to win. Its like sending 1980 planes against S-400 and then saying planes are obsolete because they cannot deal with SAMs..

at Ukraine, more Ukrainian tanks were destroyed by tank gun fire - Russians used T-72B3 with thermal sights, which Ukrainian tanks didnt had, therefore were picked out at distances they couldnt do anything about it.. yet, eventually, some T-72B3 were destroyed because Ukrainians were able to improve tactically and used terrain to their advantage as they should (no tank can survive getting hit from sides by APFSDS rounds)

Insurgency conflicts proved one thing - tanks really need Active Protection System (APS) to survive against ATGMs.. they might cost almost 1milion $ per item, but they will save you from multiple attacks.. its just not possible to put enough of armor on a tank to stop modern ATGMs from all directions.. APS can do that for you - if anything, i think next tanks would incorporate active protection as a base protection system, that will handle high threats like ATGMs or APFSDS rounds, while passive armor will handle low threats that dont require being hit by APS (autocannon rounds for example).. tank like this could be a lot lighter than today's tanks, therefore it would be easier to get it whatever you need to send some..

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 22 Dec 2017, 10:06
by arian
jj284b wrote:at Ukraine, more Ukrainian tanks were destroyed by tank gun fire - Russians used T-72B3 with thermal sights, which Ukrainian tanks didnt had, therefore were picked out at distances they couldnt do anything about it


Most tanks were destroyed in places where there wasn't much of a long range involved due to terrain. Also, very little evidence to suggest much tank fire was involved. Certainly, vast vast majority of Ukrainian tanks were destroyed by other means than tanks, and not "T-72B3". T-72B3s (and others like T-72B model 1989 etc.) were used in specific places by Russian forces and we kind of know where those were. And we kind of know what Ukrainian losses in those spots were too, and there's probably only 1 documented case of them going against each other (both were destroyed). A few other cases of tanks with KE round holes in them: at least some of those were MT-12 anti-tank guns in ambush positions. But again, only a handful of any documented cases.

In any case, I'll await your evidence of any of this, given the evidence to the contrary.

jj284b wrote:If last conflicts show us anything, then its lack of training and lack of skill of commanders that caused all those tanks to get killed.. plus, technology matters - you cannot expect sending tanks made in 1980 against enemy armed with modern ATGM and expect them to win. Its like sending 1980 planes against S-400 and then saying planes are obsolete because they cannot deal with SAMs..


Both sides involved were equally trained and roughly armed with similar generation weapons. After all, if Syrian tank crews and tactics were poor, why were Syrian rebel crews and tactics any better if they were mostly trained in the Syrian army in the first place? And most of the weapons involved were 1970s and 1980s vintage too, except for some Kornets (but those were mostly used by the Syrian army and not the rebels).

And likewise, Iraqis, Saudis, Turks etc all suffered losses in similar ways. The explanation that EVERYBODY sucks in training and tactics...EXCEPT always the guys with the ATGMs, doesn't sound convincing by the 5th or 6th conflict it happens.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 22 Dec 2017, 10:47
by milosh
XanderCrews wrote:These things are junk we figured that out after we killed them in droves after respecting them for years and years only to find out the Russians can't do basic things like blowout ammo lockers, or crew protection.


You really think they couldn't make separate bustle ammo storage :shock:

They could and they did, but generals didn't like idea.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 22 Dec 2017, 11:58
by arian
jj284b wrote:at Ukraine, more Ukrainian tanks were destroyed by tank gun fire - Russians used T-72B3 with thermal sights, which Ukrainian tanks didnt had, therefore were picked out at distances they couldnt do anything about it


More specifically, out of 265 tanks destroyed in Ukraine for which we have photographic evidence of, there are precisely 6 which are clearly killed by other tanks: 2 Ukrainian T-64s, 2 Russian T-64s, 1 Russian T-72B and 1 Russian T-72B Model 1989.

The T-72B Model 1989 may have been hit by an MT-12 100mm anti-tank gun, however. And 3 others are possibles: 2 Ukrainian T-64s and 1 Russian T-72B. These are ambiguous cases.

Certainly more were destroyed by tanks than the ones which show a clear evidence of being so. But the point is that if out of 265 we can only find 6...tank on tank combat probably was extremely rare and insignificant.

milosh wrote:You really think they couldn't make separate bustle ammo storage :shock:


Bustle ammo storage isn't the same thing as ammo compartment which can protect crew in case of explosion. And in the case of Abrams it's not just in the bustle but also hull ammo storage is designed to protect the crew in case of explosion. In fact, it's not an easy thing to design at all and none of the other Western tanks have anywhere near the same level of crew protection in terms of ammo detonation as Abrams has.

Now I agree with you that it's no surprise Russians didn't do it, as nobody else did it either by that point and nobody did it to the degree of Abrams anyway. But it certainly wasn't the case that "they did, but the generals didn't like it".

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 22 Dec 2017, 12:00
by swiss
arian wrote:Here's that picture I was talking about: T-72B frontal armor evaluated against BM-8 100mm round (~300mm penetration) and BM-26 125mm round (~400mm penetration). 1/3 of the frontal turret is <300mm protection, and over half is <400mm protection.

Image

As you can see the cast design is so poor that even in the cheeks, nearly 1/3 of the profile is still just steel and no special armor insert.


Thanks for the Picture arian. From which Russian source is this?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 22 Dec 2017, 12:20
by milosh
arian wrote:
milosh wrote:You really think they couldn't make separate bustle ammo storage :shock:


Bustle ammo storage isn't the same thing as ammo compartment which can protect crew in case of explosion. And in the case of Abrams it's not just in the bustle but also hull ammo storage is designed to protect the crew in case of explosion. In fact, it's not an easy thing to design at all and none of the other Western tanks have anywhere near the same level of crew protection in terms of ammo detonation as Abrams has.

Now I agree with you that it's no surprise Russians didn't do it, as nobody else did it either by that point and nobody did it to the degree of Abrams anyway. But it certainly wasn't the case that "they did, but the generals didn't like it".


I am talking about 1990s and later. For example object 640 had blow-out panels and ammo was 100% separated from crew but generals didn't like idea of thin ammo bustle box.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 22 Dec 2017, 16:23
by collimatrix
terrygedran wrote:
I bet you want to say this "T-72s" are Т-72Б3 обр. 2016 ?


... what is your point? Of course that's a T-72. It has a centerline driver position, and doesn't have full-diameter road wheels and the IR searchlight is to the right of the gun.

Notwithstanding the... nonstandard applique armor kit, yes, that's definitely a T-72. Do you even Russian tanks bro?

I'm not sure why you chose that picture. It's not like it's hard to find pictures of the SAA operating T-54s, T-55s and T-62s.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 22 Dec 2017, 17:32
by XanderCrews
milosh wrote:You really think they couldn't make separate bustle ammo storage :shock:

They could and they did, but generals didn't like idea.


I never said they couldn't. They as you say choose not to. Why are you bitching when we agree?

Of course they didn't like it because that would be against their bad design philosophy.

And I thank them for their stupidity. I know Abrams tankers who swear by those ammo lockers. And it was one of the key reasons for Australias choice of Abrams over Leo

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 22 Dec 2017, 17:37
by XanderCrews
collimatrix wrote:
terrygedran wrote:
I bet you want to say this "T-72s" are Т-72Б3 обр. 2016 ?


... what is your point? Of course that's a T-72. It has a centerline driver position, and doesn't have full-diameter road wheels and the IR searchlight is to the right of the gun.

Notwithstanding the... nonstandard applique armor kit, yes, that's definitely a T-72. Do you even Russian tanks bro?

I'm not sure why you chose that picture. It's not like it's hard to find pictures of the SAA operating T-54s, T-55s and T-62s.


He is literally proving my point above that's not a "real" T-72.

The no true Scotsman fallacy of ever moving goalposts continues!

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 22 Dec 2017, 17:46
by XanderCrews
arian wrote:
XanderCrews wrote:Now those T-72s getting smoked by 1970s era ATGMs have morphed to T-55 right before your own lying eyes!


To be fair, Turkish Leo2s were also being smoked by the same missiles in Syria. Soviet designs are especially vulnerable, but all tanks are appearing too vulnerable these days.

All these recent wars have been massacres of tanks, and very few of them inflicted by other tanks. 265 tanks destroyed in Ukraine (at least the ones confirmed by photos): 84 Russian and 181 Ukrainian. Probably less than 10% inflicted by other tanks. 300++ T-72s in Syria: probably 1% inflicted by other tanks.

The demise of the tank as a primary weapon of war has been prematurely declared many times before. But this time it's getting pretty close.


I disagree.

One of my very close friends was a tanker in Iraq during the surge. We can't just count when tanks die. They would park a tank and whole neighborhoods would go quiet. They never lost a tank and grunts love having them around.

I quizzed about tanks in urban environments for hours and they basically know what they are doing. Not that ATGMs aren't dangerous but you coordinate with combined arms like infantry, recon, etc.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 22 Dec 2017, 17:51
by XanderCrews
madrat wrote:Battle buses will eventually replace tanks. Big semi armored city bus sized automatons that have the ability to take massive beatings and continue to fight because of their massive redundant control pathways. Hit them with big bombs they just bounce. Like a cat it lands on its feet so to speak. Shoot it with1 million rounds of AP heavy bore machine-gun fire and it doesn't miss a beat. Even it's battery and fuel is networked so there is no way to kill it without pretty well throwing so much firepower at it it's a net loss in the favor of the automaton. Keep it simple to make, stuff it with networked fiber optics for redundant communication among its internal cells. Give it 1,000 electronic eyeballs. Make it impossible to burn. Make it light. But most of all give it enough punch to make it lethal.


Vilters level achieved

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 22 Dec 2017, 17:53
by XanderCrews
terrygedran wrote:
I bet you want to say this "T-72s" are Т-72Б3 обр. 2016 ?


No he said "T-72" which is exactly what that picture was. Pretty simple. You're trying to say he said things he never did.

Nice try though, I guess.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 22 Dec 2017, 19:36
by collimatrix
XanderCrews wrote:
milosh wrote:You really think they couldn't make separate bustle ammo storage :shock:

They could and they did, but generals didn't like idea.


I never said they couldn't. They as you say choose not to. Why are you bitching when we agree?

Of course they didn't like it because that would be against their bad design philosophy.

And I thank them for their stupidity. I know Abrams tankers who swear by those ammo lockers. And it was one of the key reasons for Australias choice of Abrams over Leo


Just to be clear, there were several prototypes for Soviet tanks that had isolated ammunition storage, and the upcoming T-14 will have ammunition that is completely separated from the crew.

There were several prototype tank designs in the late 1980s that demonstrated that the Soviet tank design bureaus were well aware of the flaws in their designs. There was Object 187, which had a new glacis design lacking the weak point in the T-64/72/80. There were a number of designs that had unmanned turrets or externally mounted guns with the crew entirely in the hull (T-14 is essentially a revival of these designs).

None of these were mass-produced. Instead, after the breakup of the USSR, the T-90 was placed in production. A design that could largely re-use existing T-72 production tooling. It's almost like they didn't have any money.

Similarly, and to bring this back on topic, there was active research in the late USSR into fighter aircraft planform alignment and internal weapons bays, especially by the Yakovlev design bureau. Again though, there was no money. Only with the recent increases in Russian defense spending has any of this stuff had a chance to see mass production.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 22 Dec 2017, 22:52
by arian
collimatrix wrote:Just to be clear, there were several prototypes for Soviet tanks that had isolated ammunition storage, and the upcoming T-14 will have ammunition that is completely separated from the crew.

There were several prototype tank designs in the late 1980s that demonstrated that the Soviet tank design bureaus were well aware of the flaws in their designs. There was Object 187, which had a new glacis design lacking the weak point in the T-64/72/80. There were a number of designs that had unmanned turrets or externally mounted guns with the crew entirely in the hull (T-14 is essentially a revival of these designs).

None of these were mass-produced. Instead, after the breakup of the USSR, the T-90 was placed in production. A design that could largely re-use existing T-72 production tooling. It's almost like they didn't have any money.

Similarly, and to bring this back on topic, there was active research in the late USSR into fighter aircraft planform alignment and internal weapons bays, especially by the Yakovlev design bureau. Again though, there was no money. Only with the recent increases in Russian defense spending has any of this stuff had a chance to see mass production.


This isn't much of an argument, however. Anybody can do anything given sufficient time and money and resources. (not anybody of course, but anybody of that level).

Nobody is saying the Russians have the IQ of tincansailor or airforcesfreak. They obviously know what the weaknesses of their designs are (just as the Abrams designers know the weaknesses of their design). The point is, in many cases they really couldn't improve on them given the resources, time and money available. Or they decided it was worth the trade off for whatever other benefit they got from those compromises.

Turns out in some cases they made the right compromises, and in some they made the wrong ones.

Saying "oh well but they totally did....in the 90s!" is missing the point.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 22 Dec 2017, 22:54
by arian
XanderCrews wrote:I disagree.

One of my very close friends was a tanker in Iraq during the surge. We can't just count when tanks die. They would park a tank and whole neighborhoods would go quiet. They never lost a tank and grunts love having them around.

I quizzed about tanks in urban environments for hours and they basically know what they are doing. Not that ATGMs aren't dangerous but you coordinate with combined arms like infantry, recon, etc.


I agree with you. I didn't say tanks are useless or dead. Rather that it now needs to be much more part of a combined arms team as it is more vulnerable today than before. And its role seems to be much more of an infantry support vehicle, than a tank-killer.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 25 Dec 2017, 00:48
by botsing
juretrn wrote:
white_lightning35 wrote:-snip-

Now if only the author of the massive wall of text knew what's a MMIC in the first place.
Or even, god forbid, knew what's GaN and what are the challenges related to its production; and why there's not a snowball's chance in hell Russia is making any GaN phased arrays anytime in the next decade.

This is not about facts but about trying to confuse people just rightly enough that they think it might be possible, no matter how the odds are favored, that Russia pulls off a miracle.

In other words, these are just nationalistic rhetorics directed at doubting Russians and not meant for us.

arian wrote:
This is the same organization that is making 5,000km jammers


Yes, but is it a hypersonic jammer?

It's a plasma stealth armored giant of 5,000km high posture, right?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 26 Dec 2017, 06:54
by tincansailor
T-72Ms dont have kontact-1 or 5 armour on them you can find clearly any statement on articles than pulling a picture out of a T-72M and calling it a T-72B is not that convincing sorry. The T-72Ms were scrapped missing half there sh*t the T-72 Babylon tanks were using mild steel instead of laminated RHA armour. and possibly as rumored mild steel rounds instead of tungsten alloy.......Sorry you were just way off might be my last comment.


We're about to find out how good Russian Army T-72s are. Ukraine will now be receiving Javelin ATGMs. The Russians are not too happy about it, saying we have crossed a red line. Too damn bad. Russia has rushed weapons to every enemy the U.S. has fought since after WWII. Russian tanks should have hard kill defense systems, that will now be put to the test. Should be interesting.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 26 Dec 2017, 06:57
by arian
Now, here's another very recent article (September 2017) describing the work on a GaN-based AESA experiment by Pulsar.

http://j.pulsarnpp.ru/images/journal/is ... peckij.pdf

Electronic antenna unit for X-band space application aesa

A. V. Belolipetskiy, O. V. Borisov, Yu. V. Kolkovsky, G. V. Legai, V. M. Minnebaev, Al. V. Redka, An. V. Redka

JSC «Pulsar»

Results of design and manufacturing of electronic antenna unit for active electronically scanned antenna array (AESA) of onboard radar complex for the Earth remote sensing are given in this article. Electronic antenna operation frequency range ∆F = 9,3-9,8 GHz. Electron beam angles sector in azimuth is ±1,5 deg, by elevation angle is ±15 deg. Antenna beam width in azimuth is in the range of 4-5 deg, by elevation – in the range of 3,8-4,5 deg

Electronic engineering. Series 2. Semiconductor devices. Issue 3 (246) 2017, pp. 15-25


Now, lets look at this beauty.

8 2-channel modules, 10W each
256 antenna elements
about 380mm x 370mm in area
90kg weight

Here is front emitter
Image

Here is back
Image

So this is "state of the art" 2017 GaN AESA. Obviously this is an experimental unit. What we can observe are:

1) Again we see flat antenna elements, as with all other Russian systems shown so far
2) 10W modules. Not good.
3) Still pretty big size
4) Massive weight, probably because of cooling problems

Overall, if this represents the state of Pulsar in 2017 with regards to GaN, then 10 years away from production examples would be far too generous. These are worst than their GaAs modules (developed from licensed German telecom technology)

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 26 Dec 2017, 07:10
by arian
Here we have the first experimental device based on GaN developed by Pulsar back in 2015.

http://j.pulsarnpp.ru/images/journal/is ... Ivanov.pdf

Six-channel trm for X-Band APAA: transmitting channel

K. A. Ivanov, A. A. Osipovsky, Al. V. Redka, An. V. Redka, A. V. Tikhomirov

JCS «Pulsar»

The results of design and fabrication of the six-channel Х-band T/R-module for Active phased antenna arrays are presented in the article. The results of measurements of the main parameters of the transmitting channel, its design, main technical characteristics and the results of thermal performance simulation in a pulsed mode are given. The main factors affecting the linearity of the phase response in the transmitting channel, the variation of phase between transmitting channels in the ensemble are investigated

Electronic engineering. Series 2. Semiconductor devices. Issue 2-3 (236-237) 2015, pp. 21-31


Let's look at this one.

6-channel module
6w Power
Dimensions: 258mm x 150mm x 58mm
Weight of module: 4.6kg

To say this is bad would be an understatement. Clearly issues with cooling.

So there we have it. Clearly this work at both Istok and Pulsar is very early experimental stage work. And the products of these experiments are nothing that would even be close to anything you'd want to put on a plane. These are all still being build as "brick" style modules. Power, weight and dimensions are no good at all (not for 2017, or even for 2000).

They are actually much more advanced with their GaAs modules based on better German technology.

Now I know that since you don't understand a single word I've typed here you'll think to yourself "well there you have it! Russian companies have already developed GaN AESA and it's been in production for the past 10 years and already 60 million have been produced and deployed on everything from PAK-FAP to Yak-18!!! Confirmed!!!" :roll:

But what these Russian technical publications actually show is very very early level experimental work.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 26 Dec 2017, 07:45
by arian
Now, to compare this 2017 Pulsar super-awesome GANNNNN AESA radar with something from 2001.

In 2001 TNO-FEL, a Dutch lab, developed an X-band AESA for SAR applications called MiniSAR (same name as the Sandia system, but that was an Ku-band system).

This 2001 X-band AESA had 24 modules, 10W each, weight about 30kg

So 2001 technology available to a Dutch lab compares very favorably to 2017 Russian GANNNNNNNNNNN AESA.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 26 Dec 2017, 10:19
by arian
terrygedran wrote:Are you ready to prove that these tanks are not Ukrainian,Czech Republic ,Bulgaria,Azerbaijan ,Georgia?


LOL: http://lostarmour.info/media/images/id576-05.jpg

You must be the dumb one in the troll farm. I hope they pay you half what they pay the other trolls.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 26 Dec 2017, 11:24
by juretrn
Terribly sorry,
http://defence-blog.com/army/syrian-mil ... kamal.html

"muh monkey models" lol.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 26 Dec 2017, 12:50
by tincansailor
arian wrote:
tincansailor wrote:Ukraine will now be receiving Javelin ATGMs.


Stupid Trump. Puerto Rican children could have eaten those Javelins.



No arian, they can't eat them. But those bad Spanish speaking Americans could have used the Javelins to hunt for game in the rainforests of their blacked out island. The 40,000 Nigerians that don't want to go back to their huts in Africa after seeing American, could have gone to Puerto Rico, to teach them how to use the Javelins. The Haitians could have helped, but their just too sick. They all have AIDs. But the "Fine People" who marched that night in Charlottesville are needed here. They have to stay and preserve our proud Confederate History.

Lets all praise our great leader Trump for allowing us all to say "Merry Christmas" again. He's made this just the greatest, biggest, bestest, most joyest Christmas ever, in the history of the whole wide world. Happy Trumpmas arian, and a Merry Trumpyear too. P.S. Did you know the Special Counsel got coal in his stockings? Little Bobby Mueller was a very bad boy this year.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 26 Dec 2017, 13:57
by tincansailor
terrygedran wrote:
tincansailor wrote: Russia has rushed weapons to every enemy the U.S. has fought since after WWII. Russian tanks should have hard kill defense systems, that will now be put to the test. Should be interesting.


"since after WWII"
U.S. did the same.

" Russian tanks should have hard kill defense systems"
You mean the Ukrainians captured by militiamen ?

" that will now be put to the test"
I'm sorry but no there are no special modern systems that can be tested( Ukrainian or someone else's).

So the hard pressed Ukrainian Army set the separatists up? They obtained dozens of a tank model they don't use, and gave them to the Separatists? The Separatists then used these tanks to defeat the Ukrainians in a number of key battles, inflicting heavy loses in the process. And they did this to make the world think Russia was helping the Separatists? Not a very good strategy, especially since only dupes didn't already know Russia a helping the Separatists, and sending Troops, and heavy weapons to invade Ukraine.

Putin has already said Russian Troops have gone into Ukraine. He said men on their own time, while on leave volunteered to fight. Whole units took their tanks, self propelled artillery, APCs, rocket launchers, and even tactical ballistic missile batteries into combat in Ukraine, with supply coveys in support. Sure I know lots of guys in the American Army who drive their tanks home on leave to show off to their friends, and families.

So other then Afghanistan, when we were helping the people survive your genocidal invasion what are you talking about? When you invaded Georgia? they used almost all Soviet Weapons. Only after your aggression did the U.S. give any weapons to them, but almost all their weapons are still Soviet Models. Israel sold them some small arms. The Chechens got no weapons from the U.S.. Russia on the other hand is giving weapons to the Taliban. what anti-Western army, or terrorist group didn't get armed by Russia? You even gave arms to the IRA.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 26 Dec 2017, 15:46
by mixelflick
Some of the claims for SU-57 are downright ludicous. At the same time, it's probably not in as dire straights as some would believe. So the truth is somewhere in between.

I just have a (real) hard time believing they've built an F-22 equivalent with 1/10th the funding, expertise etc. Sure it's 15 years on from an early Raptor, but you can't tell me for under $100 million (one estimate I saw was $50 million/copy!) they're going to deliver a Raptor killer, much less a Raptor.

By the time they deliver on the new engine, the Raptor will have 9x block II, AIM-120D, new stealth coatings, new sensors/avionics AND it'll have the F-35 to leverage.

And does anyone here think Pratt or the Air Force just sat on "35,000lb" thrust engines for a decade? I mean c'mon... Anyone??

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 26 Dec 2017, 17:45
by thismightgetdeleted
@Arian

"so you probably don't understand the use of the word "developing" in the context of my sentence." Or maybe you just dont know the own words coming out of your mouth? They have developed GaN MMICs in earlier years http://www.niip.ru/upload/iblock/4c8/4c ... b41e86.pdf which of course will lead to your next statement

"When describing Russian GaN developments it talks of two companies: Pulsar and Istok. In describing Russian GaN developments, it describes the work of Istok. It says Istok imported substrates from Cree, and imported transistors from TriQuint" OK read this part again on my previous post, "The scientific and technological concern "Roselectronika" facilitates the realisation of many projects based on GaN technology - without the use of foreign developments (import substitution)"." So again there are more sources that show they can create Gan MMICs LTCC more in particular but I am probably wasting my time having to explain that to you. Read page 18 or page 20 in PDF format it already says the company developes GaN or GaAS

"So this is "state of the art" 2017 GaN AESA. Obviously this is an experimental unit. What we can observe are:

1) Again we see flat antenna elements, as with all other Russian systems shown so far
2) 10W modules. Not good.
3) Still pretty big size
4) Massive weight, probably because of cooling problems"

Yes congrats Russia has different GaN MMICs with different power ratings and you choose the lowest reminds me of that one time you pulled a picture of a T-72M and called it a T-72B without realizing Iraq used scraps of a T-72M and replaced the laminated steel for mild steel or thought that the soviets gave soviet block nations and armor protection equal to theirs. I still can't stop laughing from that. This would be your response if there was no bias. http://translate.google.co.in/translate ... 19&act=url

" AK Breakthrough in operating temperatures yet. Today, GaN-transistors exhibit almost the worst performance thermal stability than GaAs-devices. For example, the active structure at a temperature of 350 ° C mean time between failures for GaAs-transistors is 10 -100 hours, and GaN at least 10 hours (test data 2007 year). GaN-technology devices will be improved, but in any case, the heat in the GaN-devices is removed from the area 10 times lower compared to GaAs, however enough problems. The efficiency of GaN-transistors have really high, 60--65%. But this is - not a breakthrough in modern GaAs pHEMT-transistor efficiency reaches 55%.

Breakthrough GaN-devices - in specific power from a unit periphery transistor gate, and as a result - a single crystal IIA. Today, with the single crystal GaAs MIS in the range of 10 GHz can be removed approximately 15-20 watts. For example, such devices in 2008 is manufactured by M / A-COM. But this can be considered a limit on the crystal becomes too large and fragile. With the GaN crystal IIA can be charged up to 100 watts. This goal is achievable, already demonstrated GaN monolithic amplifier with an output of about 40 watts."

Here is another part, "What is the specificity of your products?


S.I. Historically, our main customers are somehow connected with electronic warfare (EW) systems. Modern EW systems are in many cases made on the basis of active phased antenna arrays (AFAR). Unlike radar AFAR, these are small-element, but very wide-band gratings. We produce broadband amplifiers - bricks, from which then our customers build their EW systems. Our devices operate in the GHz band in wide bands: 2--18, 8--18, 4--8, 1--2, 1--4, 2--4 GHz, etc. The power is from 20 mW (low-noise amplifiers - LNA) to 20-100 W. There is also a 200-watt amplifier with a working band from 0.5 to 1 GHz."
And of course you can go look back at my 2 early sources of Roselectronika supplying the GaN LTCC MMICs to the AFAR radar and EW systems (even a god damn picture and statements of Roselectronika supplying the GaN MMICs with the specific named aircraft EW systems like Himalayas......One could not ask for a better source than this).

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 26 Dec 2017, 19:19
by juretrn
"Know your place"
Image

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 27 Dec 2017, 16:06
by milosh
mixelflick wrote:I just have a (real) hard time believing they've built an F-22 equivalent with 1/10th the funding, expertise etc. Sure it's 15 years on from an early Raptor, but you can't tell me for under $100 million (one estimate I saw was $50 million/copy!) they're going to deliver a Raptor killer, much less a Raptor.


1/10th of Raptor funding :roll:

ATF R&D cost ~30billions, PAK-FA R&D will cost ~10billions.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 27 Dec 2017, 18:54
by botsing
milosh wrote:ATF R&D cost ~30billions, PAK-FA R&D will cost ~10billions.

The ~ $32 billion in research and development costs for the F-22 is in then year dollars, spread over the years from the program start till production end.

For the total cost in 2017 dollars you have to check the R&D cost per each year and calculate that back to 2017 dollars. Taking 2004 as a last baseline (https://www.gao.gov/new.items/d06391.pdf page 59) it will be at least $42 billion in 2017 dollars.

Also remember that the F-22 did not start from scratch, if we look at the stealth aspect alone already it is build upon technology made available by planes like the B-2 and F-117 which makes parts of their R&D also part of the F-22.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 27 Dec 2017, 19:49
by milosh
botsing wrote:
milosh wrote:ATF R&D cost ~30billions, PAK-FA R&D will cost ~10billions.

The ~ $32 billion in research and development costs for the F-22 is in then year dollars, spread over the years from the program start till production end.

For the total cost in 2017 dollars you have to check the R&D cost per each year and calculate that back to 2017 dollars. Taking 2004 as a last baseline (https://www.gao.gov/new.items/d06391.pdf page 59) it will be at least $42 billion in 2017 dollars.

Also remember that the F-22 did not start from scratch, if we look at the stealth aspect alone already it is build upon technology made available by planes like the B-2 and F-117 which makes parts of their R&D also part of the F-22.


But that still is far from 1/10 of funding. Also you need to check salaries, salaries in Russia are much lower so % of salary cost in Su-57 funding is quite smaller then in F-22 which mean most of money is going for new technologies which is logical becuase even though they did have interesting "stealth" research program in 1980s (by CIA public available study) in 1990s they do very little.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 27 Dec 2017, 20:54
by icemaverick
Higher salaries also means you are attracting better talent. An engineer for Sukhoi is getting paid barely above poverty levels by US standards so chances are that Sukhoi doesn’t have the best talent. On the other hand, Lockheed, BAE Systems, Boeing, Northrop Grumman etc can offer industry-leading compensation packages and thereby attract top talent from around the world.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 27 Dec 2017, 23:04
by botsing
milosh wrote:But that still is far from 1/10 of funding.

You are missing the point, this is not about the exact ratio but about the massive difference in R&D spending that is not only historical but is still going on today: e.g. Compare the current USA military R&D budget with the complete Russian defense budget, now do the same for the past decennia and you will see the enormous lead the USA has.

icemaverick wrote:Higher salaries also means you are attracting better talent. An engineer for Sukhoi is getting paid barely above poverty levels by US standards so chances are that Sukhoi doesn’t have the best talent. On the other hand, Lockheed, BAE Systems, Boeing, Northrop Grumman etc can offer industry-leading compensation packages and thereby attract top talent from around the world.

^ This.

The USA attracts a lot of talent from other countries, payment and career paths are often better in the USA than in their country of origin. This is not only happening in Russia but also to a lesser extent in the EU, USA snags away a lot of world talent.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 28 Dec 2017, 01:20
by mas
juretrn wrote:"Know your place"
Image


SPEED KILLS ! 8)

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 28 Dec 2017, 01:38
by arian
milosh wrote:But that still is far from 1/10 of funding. Also you need to check salaries, salaries in Russia are much lower so % of salary cost in Su-57 funding is quite smaller then in F-22 which mean most of money is going for new technologies which is logical becuase even though they did have interesting "stealth" research program in 1980s (by CIA public available study) in 1990s they do very little.


Milosh, sometimes you can be a bit silly. And you know when you're being silly.

You're comparing "program cost" for PAK-FA in "WILL BE" terms (ie not actual money spend but estimated program cost money), with R&D money of a program from decades ago, and pretending they are in constant dollar terms, or that program costs are the same thing as R&D.

Really now? Really?

As for the "salaries are lower in Motherland hence we make best stuff cheaper!" argument, we've had this discussion before. And no, it doesn't work that way.

Salaries are way lower in Europe too compared to the US. Are they making cheaper stuff? Salaries are really low in India. What are they making? By that logic, Somalia and Haiti, tincanturd's spiritual homeland, ought to be making spaceships to the moon right now at a fraction of Space X's cost.

It doesn't work that way because of several reasons. First, salaries to a large extent reflect the value created. Lower salaries, lower value created at an aggregate level. Second, because a lot of things going into these projects are absolutely the same cost for everyone. Russia isn't making it's own 7-axis CNC machines and carbon fiber laying robots, is it? :wink: No it's not. It's buying those from the same place everyone else is buying them. Is it developing its own software for running these machines? No, it's buying them from the same place as everyone else is. 90% of the equipment, materials, parts etc etc is bought from the same place as everyone else, and costs the same as everyone else's.

That is to say, lower labor costs do make things cheaper. Of course. But not with the same level of productivity or technical capability or quality. You're just assuming that they can do it "just as good" for a lower cost simply because of lower labor costs. The just as good part is pretty obviously not the case. Hence the cheaper cost.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 28 Dec 2017, 10:33
by milosh
arian wrote:No, it's buying them from the same place as everyone else is. 90% of the equipment, materials, parts etc etc is bought from the same place as everyone else, and costs the same as everyone else's.


Not good example because CNC cost lot more in 1990s then it cost today. Same thing can be applied on carbon laying machines, electronics, computers (probable biggest price drop highest) etc.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 28 Dec 2017, 14:11
by mixelflick
milosh wrote:
mixelflick wrote:I just have a (real) hard time believing they've built an F-22 equivalent with 1/10th the funding, expertise etc. Sure it's 15 years on from an early Raptor, but you can't tell me for under $100 million (one estimate I saw was $50 million/copy!) they're going to deliver a Raptor killer, much less a Raptor.


1/10th of Raptor funding :roll:

ATF R&D cost ~30billions, PAK-FA R&D will cost ~10billions.


And after you factor in inflation? Look, whether it's 1/10th or 1/3rd they're doing this on a comparatve shoestring budget. I hope it turns out OK, I really do. Great looking bird. But the chances of it being a true threat to the Raptor are between slim and none.

If by the time they further refine it it's better, I'll say so. Until then, it's (at best) a prototype..

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 28 Dec 2017, 18:40
by wrightwing
By the time it's refined, the Raptor will have been significantly upgraded (new sensors, new computers, new helmet sights, new datalinks, new RAM, new weapons, new cockpit displays, and possibly upgraded propulsion), so the bar to exceed will be even higher.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 28 Dec 2017, 19:30
by botsing
milosh wrote:
arian wrote:No, it's buying them from the same place as everyone else is. 90% of the equipment, materials, parts etc etc is bought from the same place as everyone else, and costs the same as everyone else's.


Not good example because CNC cost lot more in 1990s then it cost today. Same thing can be applied on carbon laying machines, electronics, computers (probable biggest price drop highest) etc.

Some things will get cheaper and some things will get more expensive over the years.

The things that are getting cheaper are the simple things, this since we learn how to make these static designs more efficiently. Highly complex designs however are getting increasingly more expensive to develop due to the complexities having an effect on each other: more complexities together require more interoperability.

In simple terms, see every complexity as a number-rotor in a combination lock: With every complexity you add, you add a number-rotor thereby increasing the possible lock positions and making it exponentially harder to unlock the combining technology.

Modern military airplanes are an increasing combination of complex technologies, it's therefor an illusion to think that prices for developing a competing design will decrease.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 28 Dec 2017, 20:58
by XanderCrews
mas wrote:
juretrn wrote:"Know your place"
Image


SPEED KILLS ! 8)



Lol nice

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Dec 2017, 00:27
by arian
milosh wrote:Not good example because CNC cost lot more in 1990s then it cost today. Same thing can be applied on carbon laying machines, electronics, computers (probable biggest price drop highest) etc.


:roll: Yes yes. As everyone can plainly see, the Ruskies managed to create an airplane in the PAK-FA that is obviously just as good as F-22, but at a lower cost.

It's obvious to everyone that that is what they did.

And they managed to do this because they were able to get CATIA version 6 at a lower price. Explains everything!

Did you read my prior links to their GaN AESA technology level? You think this is "just as good"?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Dec 2017, 00:41
by XanderCrews
arian wrote:
milosh wrote:Not good example because CNC cost lot more in 1990s then it cost today. Same thing can be applied on carbon laying machines, electronics, computers (probable biggest price drop highest) etc.


:roll: Yes yes. As everyone can plainly see, the Ruskies managed to create an airplane in the PAK-FA that is obviously just as good as F-22, but at a lower cost.

It's obvious to everyone that that is what they did.

And they managed to do this because they were able to get CATIA version 6 at a lower price. Explains everything!

Did you read my prior links to their GaN AESA technology level? You think this is "just as good"?


You would think these supreme capitalists would show improvement in other measurements of Russian progress like the economy, manufacturing, industry etc.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Dec 2017, 01:22
by KamenRiderBlade
XanderCrews wrote:
arian wrote:
milosh wrote:Not good example because CNC cost lot more in 1990s then it cost today. Same thing can be applied on carbon laying machines, electronics, computers (probable biggest price drop highest) etc.


:roll: Yes yes. As everyone can plainly see, the Ruskies managed to create an airplane in the PAK-FA that is obviously just as good as F-22, but at a lower cost.

It's obvious to everyone that that is what they did.

And they managed to do this because they were able to get CATIA version 6 at a lower price. Explains everything!

Did you read my prior links to their GaN AESA technology level? You think this is "just as good"?


You would think these supreme capitalists would show improvement in other measurements of Russian progress like the economy, manufacturing, industry etc.
I love your great sarcasm as usual.

=D

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Dec 2017, 03:04
by arian
Also as was mentioned earlier, these figures are comparing apples with hypothetical oranges.

The $10 billion figure for PAK-FA is "estimated" program cost. I.e., program cost includes R&D and production costs. And its estimated for obvious reasons, since nothing of the sort has been done yet.

The $32 billion figure for F-22 is just R&D cost. And it is in "then year dollars", meaning adding up the amounts spend in each year not adjusted for inflation. It comes from this document: https://www.globalsecurity.org/military ... c-2010.pdf

R&D expenditures going back to 1983 (and forward projected to 2016 since this was written in 2010). Page 14. Page 15 gives them adjusted to 2005 dollars.

Adjusting these to 2017 dollars, R&D expenditures come out to ~$50 billion. Total program cost comes out to roughly ~$100 billion in 2017 dollars.

So even the hypothesized estimated future PAK-FA program cost is still 1/10 the F-22 cost, in 2017 dollars. The entire R&D part of it is 5x of the total PAK-FA estimated program cost, which means it is also probably 10x the PAK-FA R&D cost.

So yes the 10x figure is probably pretty accurate. Of course, the Russian figure of $10 billion is also total nonsense and totally made up. Their latest estimate according to what they are offering the Indians is $8 billion just in R&D expenditures to be split between the two countries (from 2016). So the overall program cost is obviously not going to be $10 billion but much more than that.

Of course, as everyone knows, the Russians can do everything just as good at 1/10 the cost, because they get paid 1/10 as much. As evidenced by their auto industry which is now making copies of Dacia cars.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Dec 2017, 17:08
by botsing
arian wrote:Of course, as everyone knows, the Russians can do everything just as good at 1/10 the cost, because they get paid 1/10 as much. As evidenced by their auto industry which is now making copies of Dacia cars.

The best selling car in Russia for 2017 is the Kia Rio.

Second place is for the Russian LADA Vesta, the cheapest model of that car translates to about 9600,- dollar. No western person in their right mind would buy this car for 10 times that price, so clearly a Russian product is not made at 1/10th the cost of a western product.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Dec 2017, 18:51
by XanderCrews
thismightgetdeleted wrote:
juretrn wrote:"Know your place"
Image


@arian can you please look at my post on page 13. @juretrn can you also show a picture without any 3rd world country operating the migs as US adversary and just use Russia with their pilots flying the migs, are they properly trained for those migs than US pilots, have the latest best variants, and atleast bring the sukhois into the equation? The mig-21 and F-4 phantom picture is agreeable for the most part its like comparing the T-34 to the German tiger tanks. Intent is on quantity more than quality......Oh hate to cause a bigger headache but this is one of many examples of the questions I would ask for those fulcrums and falcons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_M ... 1_variants and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell ... Phantom_II can you tell me what variants were used? Countries like Vietnam, Iraq and soviet block nations dont really have the best of the best from the soviets themselves....Not to take a steaming sh*t on that picture or anything like it holds no merit on what a superior design is but punching kids can make anyone feel tough than punching adults.


Beyond splitting hairs about which exact variant was used to kill other variants with who at the controls, the "trend" very clearly favors the West. To the point where da Komrades klub basically points to exceptions, excuses, and voodoo as to explain the failings.

It's fun to watch. If you look in the top left corner it even makes mention of the pilot excuse.

Of course we have anecdotes like the Soviet advisors getting their butts kicked in various engagements from Korea to the mid east. (But those must be lies)

The bottom line is even the Russians figured out the quantity over quality doesn't really work as it wasn't even creating favorable attrition.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Dec 2017, 18:53
by milosh
arian wrote:Also as was mentioned earlier, these figures are comparing apples with hypothetical oranges.

The $10 billion figure for PAK-FA is "estimated" program cost. I.e., program cost includes R&D and production costs. And its estimated for obvious reasons, since nothing of the sort has been done yet.


It is just R&D. Check what Indians wrote you will see it is only R&D.

And I didn't wrote nothing about GaN, GaN believers need to answer simple quiestion: why would Russians invest money in GaAs if GaN is around the corner???

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Dec 2017, 19:03
by thismightgetdeleted
XanderCrews wrote:
thismightgetdeleted wrote:
juretrn wrote:"Know your place"
Image


This might take 3 days to reach anyone or possibly not. @arian can you please look at my post on page 13. @juretrn can you also show a picture without any 3rd world country operating the migs as US adversary and just use Russia with their pilots flying the migs, are they properly trained for those migs than US pilots, have the latest best variants, and atleast bring the sukhois into the equation? The mig-21 and F-4 phantom picture is agreeable for the most part its like comparing the T-34 to the German tiger tanks. Intent is on quantity more than quality......Oh hate to cause a bigger headache but this is one of many examples of the questions I would ask for those fulcrums and falcons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_M ... 1_variants and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell ... Phantom_II can you tell me what variants were used? Countries like Vietnam, Iraq and soviet block nations dont really have the best of the best from the soviets themselves....Not to take a steaming sh*t on that picture or anything like it holds no merit on what a superior design is but punching kids can make anyone feel tough than punching adults.


Beyond splitting hairs about which exact variant was used to kill other variants with who at the controls, the "trend" very clearly favors the West. To the point where da Komrades klub basically points to exceptions, excuses, and voodoo as to explain the failings.

It's fun to watch. If you look in the top left corner it even makes mention of the pilot excuse.

Of course we have anecdotes like the Soviet advisors getting their butts kicked in various engagements from Korea to the mid east. (But those must be lies)

The bottom line is even the Russians figured out the quantity over quality doesn't really work as it wasn't even creating favorable attrition.


I also said it is way more than likely the Vietnamese had sh*t variants for there are some they considered export and some not along with different generations used in the war.....Its not like it offends me or the Russians or anything. But I find it strange. For example I get satisfaction of knocking out a guy that is on my weight class, but I get no satisfaction fighting someone smaller and weaker than me which I am hoping is not everyone in this forum as my example if that favors the west than so be it.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Dec 2017, 19:04
by tincansailor
So Russia is having problems with India as a partner for SU-57 development. Iran has a lot of new found money thanks to the last president, could they pick up the slack, and revive the program? The only stealth fighters they can acquire are off the shelf J-31s, or SU-57s. The SU-57 option would be more expensive, but they would at least get some technology, and domestic production out of it. With Iran, and Russia at least in a temporary alliance would this be a viable option for each of them? If India stayed in the deal would Iran sharing in the cost make it more workable?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Dec 2017, 19:09
by botsing
thismightgetdeleted wrote:are they properly trained for those migs than US pilots, have the latest best variant
...
Intent is on quantity more than quality......
...
can you tell me what variants were used? Countries like Vietnam, Iraq and soviet block nations dont really have the best of the best from the soviets themselves....

Comrade, did you even look at that picture?

Muh excuses

:doh:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Dec 2017, 19:23
by juretrn
botsing wrote:
thismightgetdeleted wrote:are they properly trained for those migs than US pilots, have the latest best variant
...
Intent is on quantity more than quality......
...
can you tell me what variants were used? Countries like Vietnam, Iraq and soviet block nations dont really have the best of the best from the soviets themselves....

Comrade, did you even look at that picture?

Muh excuses

:doh:

Weren't a great many MiG-21s in Vietnam only marked in NVA AF markings but were in fact owned and piloted by Russians?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Dec 2017, 19:43
by botsing
juretrn wrote:Weren't a great many MiG-21s in Vietnam only marked in NVA AF markings but were in fact owned and piloted by Russians?

Not sure about that one.

This one though is a famous one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Rimon_20
Rimon 20 was the code name of an aerial battle in 1970 which pitted the Israeli Air Force directly against Soviet fighter pilots stationed in Egypt during the War of Attrition. Israel chose its most skilled fighter pilots to participate in the planned dogfight in order to send a message to the Soviet Union. During the three-minute engagement, which took place on July 30, 1970, the Soviets were dominated by their veteran Israeli counterparts, resulting in the downing of five Soviet-flown MiG-21s by Israeli F-4 Phantoms and Mirage IIIs.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Dec 2017, 20:07
by basher54321
juretrn wrote:Weren't a great many MiG-21s in Vietnam only marked in NVA AF markings but were in fact owned and piloted by Russians?


No not in Vietnam - nearly all North Vietnamese - although some North Korean squadrons (whatever) were sent over.

Soviet regiments with Soviet Pilots flew early in Korea (early 1950s) while gradually handing things over to China and North Korea.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Dec 2017, 20:26
by basher54321
botsing wrote:This one though is a famous one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Rimon_20
Rimon 20 was the code name of an aerial battle in 1970 which pitted the Israeli Air Force directly against Soviet fighter pilots stationed in Egypt during the War of Attrition. Israel chose its most skilled fighter pilots to participate in the planned dogfight in order to send a message to the Soviet Union. During the three-minute engagement, which took place on July 30, 1970, the Soviets were dominated by their veteran Israeli counterparts, resulting in the downing of five Soviet-flown MiG-21s by Israeli F-4 Phantoms and Mirage IIIs.



Part of operation Kavkaz from the Soviet side:

https://www.scribd.com/doc/292903983/Operation-Kavkaz

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Dec 2017, 20:49
by XanderCrews
thismightgetdeleted wrote:
I also said it is way more than likely the Vietnamese had sh*t variants for there are some they considered export and some not along with different generations used in the war.....Its not like it offends me or the Russians or anything. But I find it strange.


Yes its this old chestnut again. The "monkey model" defense. "those were our crap variants of our otherwise superb things" dovetails nicely with "We have superb things, those are just crap operators"

Image


By all accounts it was Mig-17s in Vietnam giving the biggest headaches.

For example I get satisfaction of knocking out a guy that is on my weight class, but I get no satisfaction fighting someone smaller and weaker than me which I am hoping is not everyone in this forum as my example if that favors the west than so be it.


War isn't about "satisfaction." And we watched a tiny nation in Israel with western gear beat up on well equipped enemies with great numbers and soviet gear. and this ins't "knocking out" its war-- kill or be killed. Shockingly the people who kill and win and live are pretty satisfied given the alternative. Pilots especially. An air to air kill is the pinnacle of a fighter career. Its not "aww shucks, I wish he was in a better plane like one of ours, I almost feel bad"

We also have plenty of captured Soviet/Russian gear here in the states that we have played with and picked apart going back decades. We have had American pilots on exchanges flying Russian/soviet gear. We even have US training programs that teach on Russian and Soviet gear.

Image

I know that because i've seen those very aircraft up close.

Its not that Russian gear doesn't have advantages in certain areas because they do. There is no monopoly on superior engineering, but we can safely say having both flown, and flown against Russian aircraft that the west has a superior product. I don't think thats extreme. There is a reason the West relies heavily on its airpower. Its really good, and since we rely on it, it get better and we dedicate time and resources to improving it constantly.

I understand what you are asking. You are asking for context. The situations and subtlety that goes beyond a simple score board, but the truth is even analyzing this (and many have) the West seems to win out in most areas and "fairly" at that

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Dec 2017, 23:23
by arian
milosh wrote:It is just R&D. Check what Indians wrote you will see it is only R&D.


$8 billion is what the Indians said in 2016 is the projected R&D. Fantasy.

milosh wrote:And I didn't wrote nothing about GaN, GaN believers need to answer simple quiestion: why would Russians invest money in GaAs if GaN is around the corner???


Well, regardless of that, my purpose of bringing that up was to say that most of that technology is bought on the world markets, at market prices.

botsing wrote:Second place is for the Russian LADA Vesta, the cheapest model of that car translates to about 9600,- dollar. No western person in their right mind would buy this car for 10 times that price, so clearly a Russian product is not made at 1/10th the cost of a western product.


Well, the Lada Vesta is similar to the Nissan Versa (at least in appearance and market niche, probably not in quality). It is also developed on the basis of Nissan-Renault JV with Lada. And it costs about the same as a Nissan Versa in the US market (cheapest new car you can buy in the US. You can get it for under $10k).

So it ends up costing about the same, although who knows about the actual build quality. But the other point is that it is the highest level car produced in Russia. In the US, the Nissan Versa is the absolute lowest level car. And that's why you generally get these differences in wages across countries. Not because they can do something "just as well for less", but generally because the wages reflect the highest level of productivity they can achieve.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Dec 2017, 23:25
by arian
thismightgetdeleted wrote:@arian can you please look at my post on page 13


LOL. No.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Dec 2017, 23:34
by juretrn
milosh wrote: GaN believers need to answer simple quiestion: why would Russians invest money in GaAs if GaN is around the corner???

My friend works for one of the biggest power semiconductor manufacturers in the EU, and for them, commercial GaN remains just a pipe dream-or at least not a profitable one. And I'd dare say that company invested orders of magnitude more into the tech than any Russian company did.

also, @wewuz:
You still haven't proven you have a single iota of knowledge about semiconductors and their manufacture - beyond copy-pasting statements of people who do.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 30 Dec 2017, 01:03
by XanderCrews
terrygedran wrote:[
"genocidal invasion"
Just a delightful ability to blame others for your sins.
"we were helping the people"
And these people were Taliban.


All Afghan are Taliban, got it.

"
they used almost all Soviet Weapons. Only after your aggression did the U.S. give any weapons to them"
грузия солдаты.png

Well: not only the US, but the Western coalition and NATO countries:

In addition, thirty MANPADS "Thunder" were received from Poland and up to one hundred missiles to them, from Israel - one battery of the latest SpIDER SAM
The Georgian Navy had two missile boats (the Greek-French type Combatant-2 with Exoset and the former Soviet 206MR from the P-20) and several patrol boats,
Panzerhaubitze 2000(with all documentation and software was thrown on the battlefield)
Do not forget about a pile of instructors .


We gave them the UH-1 Huey too, a real game changer. The majority of Georgian weapons were Soviet/russian


From the reports provided by Ukraine to the United Nations on conventional weapons, since 1999, Kiev has supplied Georgia with about 150 heavy weapons.
In 2005, Georgia significantly expanded the orders for the Ukrainian military-industrial complex. She purchased 16 T-72 tanks, 12 BMP-2 and 10 BTR-80, 6 SAU 2S3, 6 Mi-24 helicopters and 2 Mi-8MT helicopters.
The record year for purchase of weapons was in 2007 when Ukraine sold 74 T-72 tanks, six BTS-5B armored multi-purpose tractors, two self-propelled howitzers 2S7 "Pion", eight training aircraft L-39 (which can also be used as light weapons attack aircraft). At the same time, Georgia's report for 2007 (it also sent such reports to the UN) states that Ukrainian SAU "Pion" received five units, not two. In addition, according to the Georgian version, one SAM Buk and 48 ATGM Combat were also delivered. In 2007, Tbilisi bought from Kiev and small arms.


So russian and Soviet weapons?


In assessing this statistics, there is only one question: how not a very rich country (GDP in 2003 was only about 3.91 billion dollars, while external debt exceeded 1.8 billion dollars, or 46 percent of GDP) in four years, managed to accumulate means sufficient for the purchase and modernization of such quantities of weapons.

In the period from 2004 to 2007, the US formally allocated about $ 500-600 million to Georgia for these purposes. In addition, in 2004, Tbilisi created a special fund for the development of the national army, which could be financed on terms of complete anonymity by both private and legal persons, as well as other state, non-governmental foundations and organizations.


Ok and? We are talking weapons not funding. The West funded the still majority Russian gear of the Georgians.

So, at the moment in Germany a scandal arises over the reports of the German ARD television channel that the Georgian special forces that invaded South Ossetia were armed with G36 assault rifles of the German concern Heckler und Koch. In the Report Mainz program of the ARD channel, Georgian soldiers were shown with these rifles over their shoulders. Head of the Arms Information Office in Freiburg (Baden-Württemberg land) Jürgen Gresslin unequivocally identified the weapon as a G36 rifle with a truncated barrel intended for special forces.

Meanwhile, the German Ministry of Economics assured the media that there was no permission to export this kind of small arms to Georgia. However, according to ARD referring to the British expert publication Jane's Defense Weekly, Heckler und Koch sent a request to the German government to export 230 models of the G36 (200 in a shortened version and 30 in a compact version) to Georgia, but was refused due to the fact that Georgia is involved in military operations. And although the Ministry of Economy did not give permission for the supply of rifles to Georgia, they were still there. According to German law, government permission is necessary for the export of all types of weapons. At the same time, the official authorities of Germany refrain from supplying weapons to zones of territorial conflicts. "If there is a weapon somewhere, the supply of which does not have permission from the government of Germany, then we are talking about illegal exports," stressed Jurgen Gresslin. In turn, representatives of the concern Heckler und Koch, the German media reported, refused to comment on the situation and give explanations about how the rifles could have appeared in the Caucasus.


Wow that's some real scandal. How on earth did they accumulate illegal HK weapons without legal approval from HK and the German government?! There's just no way those guns could have been bought or smuggled from elsewhere!! I mean there are only 40 listed users of G36s alone on wiki.


Holy hell. You Would think Russians of all people would understand smuggling and black markets but here we are.

Keep it up Terry! You are really on topic here

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 30 Dec 2017, 01:07
by XanderCrews
arian wrote:Troll level: Pravda


Speaking of trolls, I often wonder if it was a rabid anti communist that designed Soviet tanks. "Yes the ammo goes under the turret... in a carousel. No you don't need a loader this is much better.. reloading quickly is for the West."

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 30 Dec 2017, 01:11
by arian
In 2005, Georgia significantly expanded the orders for the Ukrainian military-industrial complex.


The Banderist-Nazi-Kapitalist conspiracy thickens. Nazi tentacles are everywhere.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 30 Dec 2017, 04:52
by mas
thismightgetdeleted wrote:
juretrn wrote:"Know your place"
Image


This might take 3 days to reach anyone or possibly not. @arian can you please look at my post on page 13. @juretrn can you also show a picture without any 3rd world country operating the migs as US adversary and just use Russia with their pilots flying the migs, are they properly trained for those migs than US pilots, have the latest best variants, and atleast bring the sukhois into the equation?


You do know that virtually all those Tomcat kills were by Iranians not only against Iraqis but top notch Soviet and East German pilots too ?.The Tomcat owned the Foxbat which took to evading rather than fighting when it was about. A lot of those Eagle/Falcon kills were also done by the Israelis. Those four Russian fighters were all seriously flawed in some way. The Mig-21 had no BVR capability worthy of the name, the Mig-23 and Mig-25 couldn't competitively turn and the Mig-29 had poor range and BVR capability. Sure the numbers might have been a bit better if it was just Russian Vs American pilots but not a lot. The Su-27 was the first Russian fighter not seriously flawed in some way that could really hang with the teen fighters. They just never saw much combat except in Africa a little.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 30 Dec 2017, 05:30
by arian
Soviet pilot training must have been so bad that every single country that trained its pilots there apparently got really shitty pilots.

Apparently Wewaz/Terry thinks this is a good explanation in defense of his argument.

Strangely every country that got US training ended up with really good pilots. How is that possible?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 30 Dec 2017, 09:47
by milosh
arian wrote:Soviet pilot training must have been so bad that every single country that trained its pilots there apparently got really shitty pilots.

Apparently Wewaz/Terry thinks this is a good explanation in defense of his argument.

Strangely every country that got US training ended up with really good pilots. How is that possible?


Well not all, VPAF pilots were very effective in air to air combat.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 30 Dec 2017, 09:50
by gideonic
arian wrote:Soviet pilot training must have been so bad that every single country that trained its pilots there apparently got really shitty pilots.

Apparently Wewaz/Terry thinks this is a good explanation in defense of his argument.

Strangely every country that got US training ended up with really good pilots. How is that possible?


Not only that. It always makes me smirk, when the same trolls that praise russian gear (for export no less, e.g. India) also bring out the "monkey model" argument for any Soviet/Russian gear actually used in combat. Why on hell should anyone buy any russian gear ever (say, the Su-57?), when it turns into a "inferior monkey-model infinitely worse than the über-wunder russian counterpart" the second it sees actual combat? Just like the cinderella pumpkin carriage or something ...

Yet obviously, the very same trolls see no contradiction there :doh:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 30 Dec 2017, 10:10
by eloise
thismightgetdeleted wrote:Considering the title of this thread I guess 2027 must have come really early if 2-3 su-57s will be out in 2018 or 12 by 2019 :mrgreen: . Jokes aside is this a good forum? I heard rumors from aviation online forum that this forum is filled with chest pumping kids that kick you out if you are not playing in the same sand box as them and now this topic is going from aircraft to talking about tanks....Lets all get back on track of the SU-57 and we all can start doing that by comparing it to another 5th gen aircraft in deciding if this aircraft will be good or not and will it keep its promise of what it will have. So I will keep this short by talking about avionics and engines before talking about the other good stuff

Nice try wewazkangs, but you are not fooling anyone here , when your writing style and your BS nonsense statements stayed exactly the same. FYI you get banned, because repeat the same nonsense over and over and over a thousands times even though you were taught why they are wrong many times, you were acting like a child hopping that if you repeat stuffs often enough, people will start to believe it, and it will be your little victory. Sorry kid, not gonna happen, you can forget about it.




thismightgetdeleted wrote:1. The SU-57 radar and EW systems. I heard in a 2009 magazine and NIIPs website which has not been updated for quite sometime back in 2009 saying it will use GaAS. Than I meet people like Joe Asakura than say the ECM arrays will be using GaN MMICs https://forum.keypublishing.com/showthr ... ost2281246 than there is this talking about the radar using GaN LTCC MMICs.https://bmpd.livejournal.com/675239.html

Nice try, but no. NIIPP is as official as it is, if they said PAK-FA uses GaAs then it uses GaAs. Left aside the fact that you were citing a normal forum member just like any one here. The article from Joe Asakura only talk about the development of GaN circuit modules in Russia, what are their advantages, how they can be used in modern radars, ECM. That doesn't actually mean they will be used in the block of PAK-FA. There are tons of GaN circuits modules developed in US too, many found ways into radar systems already. That doesn't mean the first block of APG-81 will use GaN. There are economy aspects, there are logistics aspects, it is not simple to change the supply chain mid way of the development

thismightgetdeleted wrote: For sure there is evidence that the modules phazatron has changed drastically in size http://www.ato.ru/files/styles/imagesta ... ok=ytptzdE

Doesn't mean they changed from GaAs to GaN, US modules changed dramatically in size as well

thismightgetdeleted wrote:the same looking blue MMICs seem to be on the K-77M missiles https://yanziyang.files.wordpress.com/2 ... d17af8.jpg it also talks about the missiles using digital AESA arrays http://www.i-mash.ru/news/nov_otrasl/44 ... etami.html.

I already taught you before : all AESA radar are digital, you only think that K-77M seeker is special because you don't even understand how a planar array operates

thismightgetdeleted wrote: So why is it taking long for the F-35 to have such similar AESA sensor warhead technology in the late 2020s known as JNAAMs but they are having problems to atleast completing the block 3f software before getting to block 4. http://www.airforce-technology.com/news ... e-5906820/

Taking long? Russian only started to equip their Flanker with basic R-77 since Syria conflict, before that they still relied on R-27. Nevermind K-77M, that not even get a test launch yet. It was expected to get into serial production by 2015, yet even now not yet in Low rate initial production. Taking about PAK-FA, when was the last time, it test launch the K-77M ? Oh yes it didn't either. While hundreds F-35 is transforming from IOC to FOC, PAK-FA is still for the most parts in development. So time is not what anyone with half a brain cell would try to argue in PAK-FA favor.
FYI, JNAAMs is a ramjet missiles with AESA seeker, K-77M is a missile with normal propeller. Kinematic performer, therefore will be in favor of JNAAM.

thismightgetdeleted wrote: So block 5 is to test the DIRCM, IRST and APS systems.

Nice effort but useless as usual, IRST and towed decoys are already integrated in current F-35. Only DIRCM is for later.


thismightgetdeleted wrote:
The T-50-9 has tested its avionics on April 24 2017 for final testing. I am assuming the DIRCM, IRST and APS systems of the SU-57 will be declared operational since the government is waiting on Putin to pass the state armament plan

No it didn't but i don't expect you to understand what involved in testing.

thismightgetdeleted wrote: so the next issue is the izdelie 30 and ROFAR upgrade integration on to the SU-57. From the looks of how the radar might operate. some say 1hz to 100ghz http://fullafterburner.weebly.com/aeros ... amechanger and there is another source of the mig-41 saying it will use the same radio optical phased arrays, "Both the emitter and the receiver have been built on the basis of the experimental prototype as part of the R&D work. All this works and performs the location - we emit an ultra-high frequency signal, it is reflected back and we receive and process it and get the radar picture of an object. We see what we need to do to make it optimal," he said."

Here we go again, with the same nonsense about ROFAR. No, it won't operate from 1Hz to 100 Ghz period. With frequency too low your radar will be overly inaccurate for any purpose, with frequency too high, your EM wave will be absorbed all by moisture in atmosphere. Physics doesn't go way because you hate it.



thismightgetdeleted wrote:
This is the same organization that is making 5,000km jammers like the murmansk-BN and other krasukha systems I heard they are a new organization.

And as i already taught you, to jam a radar, it is actually easier to jam it the further you are from it, because radar signal decrease at faster rate due to 2 ways travel. About, Murmansk, it is just a communication jammer, hardly anything state of the art, you can jam communications by pumping out enough noise.


thismightgetdeleted wrote: So here it stated UHF and the other it states the range it will operate in. Since the SU-57 has a multiband radar that processes both X and L band signals they seem to want to widen that up.

No, Su-57 doesn't use multi band radar. The main FCR radar at the nose use Xband like any aircraft since ever. The IFF array at the wing uses L band, but they are not the same radar period. They do not even form the same beam.

thismightgetdeleted wrote:
"Sensor fusion is a process by which data from several different sensors are "fused" to compute something more than could be determined by any one sensor alone

Nice try pretending like you are someone else, yet still trying to back up your old argument, but again you still don't understand it. They did that by putting together needed pieces. For example: an IR sensor has very good angular accuracy but can't measure distance, a radar's angular accuracy isn't as good but can measure distance. Put them together, you can have accurate directions of target + distance to it. However, if the target found a way to delete that needed piece then sensor fusion won't have much benefit. For example: if your radar were jammed and can't measure distance to target, fuse its info with IR system won't really benefit you at all.

thismightgetdeleted wrote:
this is why the Chinese as another example can track an RCS of .01m2 more than 300km away in which case there is no chance in hell an X-band can do that alone in "tracking" http://www.deagel.com/news/China-Introd ... 17185.aspx.

Oh really? May be you should check what SBX or TPY-2 can do.
And read that piece of tabloid carefully, the radar that can track a ballistic missiles with RCS 0.01m2 from 300 km is SLC-7, it is not the same as the radar in their title

thismightgetdeleted wrote:
The Nebo-M seems to be more powerful than this radar.

And that based on what? Your patriotic feeling?

thismightgetdeleted wrote:Because talks of both JNAAMs and K-77M speak of locking on targets without any transmission

I already taught you. RF guided missiles need to rely on some forms of transmission. For examples: HoJ function can passively guide the AIM-120 into aircraft, but it rely on that aircraft transmit jamming signal. HARMs can theoretically be used against AWACs but it rely on the AWAC to have radar operate. But if a fighter is maneuvering away, and doesn't have its jammer on, then your missile need to use to turn on it's radar, otherwise it will see nothing and will locking on nothing. Pe
thismightgetdeleted wrote:Considering the title of this thread I guess 2027 must have come really early if 2-3 su-57s will be out in 2018 or 12 by 2019 :mrgreen: . Jokes aside is this a good forum? I heard rumors from aviation online forum that this forum is filled with chest pumping kids that kick you out if you are not playing in the same sand box as them and now this topic is going from aircraft to talking about tanks....Lets all get back on track of the SU-57 and we all can start doing that by comparing it to another 5th gen aircraft in deciding if this aircraft will be good or not and will it keep its promise of what it will have. So I will keep this short by talking about avionics and engines before talking about the other good stuff

Nice try wewazkangs, but you are not fooling anyone here , when your writing style and your BS nonsense statements stayed exactly the same. FYI you get banned, because repeat the same nonsense over and over and over a thousands times even though you were taught why they are wrong many times, you were acting like a child hopping that if you repeat stuffs often enough, people will start to believe it, and it will be your little victory. Sorry kid, not gonna happen, you can forget about it.




thismightgetdeleted wrote:1. The SU-57 radar and EW systems. I heard in a 2009 magazine and NIIPs website which has not been updated for quite sometime back in 2009 saying it will use GaAS. Than I meet people like Joe Asakura than say the ECM arrays will be using GaN MMICs https://forum.keypublishing.com/showthr ... ost2281246 than there is this talking about the radar using GaN LTCC MMICs.https://bmpd.livejournal.com/675239.html

Nice try, but no. NIIPP is as official as it is, if they said PAK-FA uses GaAs then it uses GaAs. Left aside the fact that you were citing a normal forum member just like any one here. The article from Joe Asakura only talk about the development of GaN circuit modules in Russia, what are their advantages, how they can be used in modern radars, ECM. That doesn't actually mean they will be used in the block of PAK-FA. There are tons of GaN circuits modules developed in US too, many found ways into radar systems already. That doesn't mean the first block of APG-81 will use GaN. There are economy aspects, there are logistics aspects, it is not simple to change the supply chain mid way of the development

thismightgetdeleted wrote: For sure there is evidence that the modules phazatron has changed drastically in size http://www.ato.ru/files/styles/imagesta ... ok=ytptzdE

Doesn't mean they changed from GaAs to GaN, US modules changed dramatically in size as well

thismightgetdeleted wrote:the same looking blue MMICs seem to be on the K-77M missiles https://yanziyang.files.wordpress.com/2 ... d17af8.jpg it also talks about the missiles using digital AESA arrays http://www.i-mash.ru/news/nov_otrasl/44 ... etami.html.

I already taught you before : all AESA radar are digital, you only think that K-77M seeker is special because you don't even understand how a planar array operates

thismightgetdeleted wrote: So why is it taking long for the F-35 to have such similar AESA sensor warhead technology in the late 2020s known as JNAAMs but they are having problems to atleast completing the block 3f software before getting to block 4. http://www.airforce-technology.com/news ... e-5906820/

Taking long? Russian only started to equip their Flanker with basic R-77 since Syria conflict, before that they still relied on R-27. Nevermind K-77M, that not even get a test launch yet. It was expected to get into serial production by 2015, yet even now not yet in Low rate initial production. Taking about PAK-FA, when was the last time, it test launch the K-77M ? Oh yes it didn't either. While hundreds F-35 is transforming from IOC to FOC, PAK-FA is still for the most parts in development. So time is not what anyone with half a brain cell would try to argue in PAK-FA favor.
FYI, JNAAMs is a ramjet missiles with AESA seeker, K-77M is a missile with normal propeller. Kinematic performer, therefore will be in favor of JNAAM.

thismightgetdeleted wrote: So block 5 is to test the DIRCM, IRST and APS systems.

Nice effort but useless as usual, IRST and towed decoys are already integrated in current F-35. Only DIRCM is for later.


thismightgetdeleted wrote:
The T-50-9 has tested its avionics on April 24 2017 for final testing. I am assuming the DIRCM, IRST and APS systems of the SU-57 will be declared operational since the government is waiting on Putin to pass the state armament plan

No it didn't but i don't expect you to understand what involved in testing.

thismightgetdeleted wrote: so the next issue is the izdelie 30 and ROFAR upgrade integration on to the SU-57. From the looks of how the radar might operate. some say 1hz to 100ghz http://fullafterburner.weebly.com/aeros ... amechanger and there is another source of the mig-41 saying it will use the same radio optical phased arrays, "Both the emitter and the receiver have been built on the basis of the experimental prototype as part of the R&D work. All this works and performs the location - we emit an ultra-high frequency signal, it is reflected back and we receive and process it and get the radar picture of an object. We see what we need to do to make it optimal," he said."

Here we go again, with the same nonsense about ROFAR. No, it won't operate from 1Hz to 100 Ghz period. With frequency too low your radar will be overly inaccurate for any purpose, with frequency too high, your EM wave will be absorbed all by moisture in atmosphere. Physics doesn't go way because you hate it.



thismightgetdeleted wrote:
This is the same organization that is making 5,000km jammers like the murmansk-BN and other krasukha systems I heard they are a new organization.

And as i already taught you, to jam a radar, it is actually easier to jam it the further you are from it, because radar signal decrease at faster rate due to 2 ways travel. About, Murmansk, it is just a communication jammer, hardly anything state of the art, you can jam communications by pumping out enough noise.


thismightgetdeleted wrote: So here it stated UHF and the other it states the range it will operate in. Since the SU-57 has a multiband radar that processes both X and L band signals they seem to want to widen that up.

No, Su-57 doesn't use multi band radar. The main FCR radar at the nose use Xband like any aircraft since ever. The IFF array at the wing uses L band, but they are not the same radar period. They do not even form the same beam.

thismightgetdeleted wrote:
"Sensor fusion is a process by which data from several different sensors are "fused" to compute something more than could be determined by any one sensor alone

Nice try pretending like you are someone else, yet still trying to back up your old argument, but again you still don't understand it. They did that by putting together needed pieces. For example: an IR sensor has very good angular accuracy but can't measure distance, a radar's angular accuracy isn't as good but can measure distance. Put them together, you can have accurate directions of target + distance to it. However, if the target found a way to delete that needed piece then sensor fusion won't have much benefit. For example: if your radar were jammed and can't measure distance to target, fuse its info with IR system won't really benefit you at all.

thismightgetdeleted wrote:
this is why the Chinese as another example can track an RCS of .01m2 more than 300km away in which case there is no chance in hell an X-band can do that alone in "tracking" http://www.deagel.com/news/China-Introd ... 17185.aspx.

Oh really? May be you should check what SBX or TPY-2 can do.
And read that piece of tabloid carefully, the radar that can track a ballistic missiles with RCS 0.01m2 from 300 km is SLC-7, it is not the same as the radar in their title

thismightgetdeleted wrote:
The Nebo-M seems to be more powerful than this radar.

And that based on what? Your patriotic feeling?

thismightgetdeleted wrote:Because talks of both JNAAMs and K-77M speak of locking on targets without any transmission

I already taught you. RF guided missiles need to rely on some forms of transmission. For examples: HoJ function can passively guide the AIM-120 into aircraft, but it rely on that aircraft transmit jamming signal. HARMs can theoretically be used against AWACs but it rely on the AWAC to have radar operate. But if a fighter is maneuvering away, and doesn't have its jammer on, then your missile need to use to turn on it's radar, otherwise it will see nothing and will locking on nothing. Period.

thismightgetdeleted wrote:
Here considering this forum I hope this put everyone back on track talking about aircraft.

More like you desperately repeat the same ideas by different account hoping that this time for some magical reason people will start to buy it.period.

thismightgetdeleted wrote:
Here considering this forum I hope this put everyone back on track talking about aircraft.

More like you desperately repeat the same ideas by different account hoping that this time for some magical reason people will start to buy it.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 30 Dec 2017, 11:59
by arian
Nice try, but no. NIIPP is as official as it is, if they said PAK-FA uses GaAs then it uses GaAs. Left aside the fact that you were citing a normal forum member just like any one here. The article from Joe Asakura only talk about the development of GaN circuit modules in Russia, what are their advantages, how they can be used in modern radars, ECM. That doesn't actually mean they will be used in the block of PAK-FA. There are tons of GaN circuits modules developed in US too, many found ways into radar systems already. That doesn't mean the first block of APG-81 will use GaN. There are economy aspects, there are logistics aspects, it is not simple to change the supply chain mid way of the development


A few pages back I posted the "state of the art" in Russian GaN developments from their own scientific publications. Lets just say...not gonna happen this decade.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 30 Dec 2017, 15:25
by XanderCrews
milosh wrote:
Well not all, VPAF pilots were very effective in air to air combat.


Until the US corrected. Then suddenly things turned. The VPAF lost, and lost huge. It was basically the falcons patriots super bowl. Strong first half, then nothing

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 30 Dec 2017, 15:36
by XanderCrews
thismightgetdeleted wrote:Considering the title of this thread I guess 2027 must have come really early if 2-3 su-57s will be out in 2018 or 12 by 2019 : .


Comprehension, not even once.

Jokes aside is this a good forum? I heard rumors from aviation online forum that this forum is filled with chest pumping kids that kick you out if you are not playing in the same sand box as them and now this topic is going from aircraft to talking about...



What an innocent and unloaded question! Not at all obvious!

You need to be an undercover cop with all that talent

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 30 Dec 2017, 17:58
by XanderCrews
terrygedran wrote:"Because no one would willingly build tanks like that right?"
Crew 3 (commander, gunner, driver)+Autoloader
Type 90 Kyū-maru
Type 10
Type 99 tank
VT-4 Main Battle Tank
K2 Black Panther
AMX Leclerc



Swing and a miss. The issue isn't having an auto loader in and of itself.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 30 Dec 2017, 19:07
by eloise
I didn't care much about engine but then i figured if i don't correct him, he may think only his others statements were wrong
thismightgetdeleted wrote:2. engines so they have gone from a 3,500km range to an estimated above 5,000km range engine with no refuel or external fuel tanks which is like a 43% increase in range.

No they didn't. Stop using Sputnik then add in even more of your own BS. PAK-FA has never ever officially estimated to reach 5000 km ferry range, not even when carrying fuel tank, nevermind with internal fuel.

thismightgetdeleted wrote: So give or take max thrust rate of AL-41 is 33,000lbs and izdelie 30 is at 42,000lbs and going from mach 1.5 to mach 1.8 in super cruise you get like a 20 increase for super cruise thrust and maybe a little more when dividing max thrust afterburner.So lets look at ADVENT https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ts-377569/ and http://aviationweek.com/defense/ge-deta ... ngine-plan this basically says 10% more thrust and 30% more range.....The difference here seems that what is currently being tested right now is better than what is on paper known as ADVENT. Should the F-35 ditched ADVENT for a better engine design?

Nice try, but your ignorance get the better of you again.
Izdelie 30 is an under development design that will reach IOC earliest at 2020s, with thrust rating of 42,000 lbs. Current F-135 already has thrust rating of 43,000 lbs. Funny thing is, if you look at the date of your article, you will realized that ADVENT core was already tested in 2012. Around mid 2020s, the F-35 will be upgraded with ACE with 20% better thrust over current F-135 (that 55,900 lbs), 30% better range, and a third stream to reduce IR signature
Image


thismightgetdeleted wrote:And of course you can go look back at my 2 early sources of Roselectronika supplying the GaN LTCC MMICs to the AFAR radar and EW systems (even a god damn picture and statements of Roselectronika supplying the GaN MMICs with the specific named aircraft EW systems like Himalayas......One could not ask for a better source than this)

No, they didn't supply it, you should re-learn English if you thought that was the case. Pay attention to these words they used. They talked about potential application, the same way they say spider silk will make bullet proof vest 10 times lighter. Doesn't mean your bullet proof vest will now be made from spider silk
The new amplifiers will allow for a [more than] 10 times improvement in weight and size parameters of the receivers in radar and electronic warfare avionics, in such complexes as "Khibiny-M", "Rubella-4", "Himalaya", "Tarantula", while improving the noise figure, and would eliminate the the use of foreign-made products in a number of communications systems.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 31 Dec 2017, 00:57
by thismightgetdeleted
@arian
"Nice try wewazkangs" I have no idea who that is?

[... rest of message removed...]

:: Message from mods: thismightgetdeleted was indeed Wewuzkangz - Ban has been issued and most garbage posts have been cleaned up ::

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 31 Dec 2017, 06:08
by eloise
thismightgetdeleted wrote:Fine no sputnik than https://defpost.com/russias-pak-fa-fift ... ted-su-57/ "The new engine will make the Su-57 capable of supercruise at 2,000 km/h (1,200 mph) – i.e, to maintain supersonic cruising speed without firing up afterburners. The aircraft can also fly over 5,000 kilometers with no air refueling or external fuel tanks."

Nice try, but again, no
Firstly, that is nothing more than a personal blog post, it is as reliable as Picard.
Secondly, just like you, he also added in his own BS from the cited information. According what written on the page, his information were "reported" on RBTH, yet, funny enough, if you actually went to the RBTH link : https://www.rbth.com/defence/2017/08/02 ... ame_815520, there isn't a single word about combat radius.

thismightgetdeleted wrote:So its still a paper design while the other is already doing flight tests correct? Thats all I wanted to hear. VTOL will obviously require alot of thrust so its obvious from the start. the item 30 still succeeds the ACE.

Nice try but let me spell it out for you: current F-135 already has higher thrust than item 30. ADVENT physical core were already made and tested in 2012 (or 5 years ago), ACE is successor of ADVENT.

thismightgetdeleted wrote:Read my other post that with the image literally state the MMIC models, EW systems and production of the 21 program.

They stated the MMIC modules and how they CAN improve performance of EW equipment, not that they were used in these EW equipment.

thismightgetdeleted wrote:Well rather if you understand technology other than physics its a multiband radar than can go high and low. sensors at high and low can work as one as previously stated.

Unfortunately, we haven't yet develope technology to change the law of physics. So making a radar that operate from 1 Hz to 100 Ghz is idiotic, and the rest of your quotes is nonsense

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 31 Dec 2017, 11:54
by arian
The production of such modules - broadband microwave amplifiers for PPR, which is a monolithic integrated circuit of the GaN type - is established at the Istok Research and Industrial Enterprise (Fryazino, Moscow Region), part of the holding company RosElectronics.


Absolutely! Istok is making world-class GaN modules. It is absolutely not true that Istok in fact can't make s**t and is actually buying off the shelf civilian components to run some experiments. Nope. Not true at all.

Your work here is done. You have convinced us. You should leave now and spread your message of GANNNN and ROFLAR to some other poor forum.

Off you go now...

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 31 Dec 2017, 20:02
by wrightwing
If you understand physics, then you also understand that the claims about ROFAR are bullshit. When you post bullshit, you destroy all credibility, and get laughed at.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 31 Dec 2017, 20:18
by eloise
thismightgetdeleted wrote:" Your opinion matters alot to me https://defpost.com/about/

No, what i said isn't an opinion, but rather a fact.
" digital news publication" = basically mean any blogs, websites, whatsoever
"founded in 2015 by a group of technology and defence enthusiasts" = literally made by a group of amateur
So yes,the fact is they don't know what they talking about, just like you.

thismightgetdeleted wrote:Well maybe thats because its a different source? No sputnik and no this?

Just admit it, he made that up hopping people don't pay attention. Because up until now Russia MoD haven't release information about PAK-FA ferry range.

thismightgetdeleted wrote:no sh*t its VTOL you know what that means? It has to use a alot of force to lifts itself vertically off the ground is that right?

Nice try, but and gave you the thrust rating of F-135 PW-100 not F-135 PW-600, and the thrust from the lift fan in hover mode was not included.

thismightgetdeleted wrote: Hell tell me the top speed of an F-35 because with that much thrust and its weight it would probably outrun a SR-71 LOL XD.

Nice try but as usual, you demonstrated your lack of understanding in aerodynamic. SR-71 or Mig-25 can fly faster than F-35 not because they have higher T/W but because their variable inlet was designed to allow high pressure recovery performance at high speed. That come at the cost of heavier and higher signature.

thismightgetdeleted wrote: Here you go.

We been over that for several pages already, just because you try to brought it back over and over doesn't make it true. Some things developed in labs # something in serial production # something chosen by investors for specific systems. "can" "will" # "is"
US have loads of GaN modules in production, they can even export it, but that doesn't mean all systems on F-35 use GaN

thismightgetdeleted wrote: You can go look at the radar MMICs "The greatest progress in the development of the S-121 radar is related to bringing to the state of mass production the main element of the radar with AFAR - the receiving-transmitting modules. The production of such modules - broadband microwave amplifiers for PPR, which is a monolithic integrated circuit of the GaN type - is established at the Istok Research and Industrial Enterprise (Fryazino, Moscow Region), part of the holding company RosElectronics."

Nice try but same mistake as usual. You taken that piece from https://bmpd.livejournal.com/675239.html
LiveJournal is another blog service just like WordPress, blogspot.
You want people to take you serious, you need to consider taking information from official sources: either MoD personnel, manufacturer, user manual, scientific researchs ... etc not some random blog or forum posts. That not to say you can't use blog as a source, but only if stuffs they said are easily confirmed such as physics or calculations or with direct citations.


thismightgetdeleted wrote: -How does this change physics? Its basically using frequency in a multi-band radar while giving a description about it.

Because transmit at frequency of 1 Hz with fighter radar is idiotic, you will have a useless omnidirectional transmitter. Transmit at frequency of 100 Ghz with fighter radar is also dumb because you won't see further than a few km. Then there is issue of elements spacing for planar array. I taught you all of this the last time you were here, Had you actually learned, you wouldn't get banned

thismightgetdeleted wrote: Tell me why stealth aircraft are vulnerable in VHF and UHF are vulnerable to Rayleigh Scattering? This relates to physics so i thought you might enjoy it.

Traveling wave (creeping wave), tip diffraction
Bigger lobes for specular reflection
Image
Image

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 31 Dec 2017, 21:43
by arian
Nice try but same mistake as usual. You taken that piece from https://bmpd.livejournal.com/675239.html
LiveJournal is another blog service just like WordPress, blogspot.
You want people to take you serious, you need to consider taking information from official sources: either MoD personnel, manufacturer, user manual, scientific researchs ... etc not some random blog or forum posts. That not to say you can't use blog as a source, but only if stuffs they said are easily confirmed such as physics or calculations or with direct citations.


I already posted an actual article from a Russian scientific publication in 2017, written by a JSC Pulsar employee about the state of the art of Russian GaN technology.

Let's just say...they're not recognizing anyone's face from 400km away. LOL

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 05 Jan 2018, 15:20
by sdkf251
Hmm.... I remember when Mig19, Mig21 Mig23 and MIg25 were able to make the West speculate on what possible designs
the USSR was making next.

Nowadays, not so much. Imagine a 1970's design still being modified and upgraded and labeled the "best we can offer".
Where is the originality?

On a very different note, If I remember correctly, the 57mm gun in a WW2 US halftrack was given to the Soviets as a lend lease where they called it the SU-57. :mrgreen:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 05 Jan 2018, 16:06
by mixelflick
So in the opinion of most here, is the SU-57 any kind of imminent threat to western air forces? I know it's no F-22, although other forums (keypub is one) speaks of the SU-57 as it's almost combat ready, the current engines work just fine for supercruise, the stealth is good enought etc..

Does anyone think it's something F-15 pilots need concern themselves with in the next 5 years?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 05 Jan 2018, 19:32
by icemaverick
The Su-57 is probably on par with or superior to most Western 4++ men designs. My money is on the latter. It has impressive kinematic performance, it is supermaneuverable, can supercruise, has the best Russian radar/avionics/electronic warfare suite and, while not as stealthy as the F-22 or F-35, should have a low radar cross section.

F-15 pilots will not be facing the Su-57 alone. If the Su-57 deployed to any area close to where F-15s are, there will be Raptors and/or Lightnings there as well. As for being a threat in the next 5 years, I doubt it. They've got 10 flyable prototypes built so far. That's not even enough for an operational squadron. They haven't even started high rate production yet and I doubt they'll be able to churn out more than 10 a year for at least the next few years. Then they have to train pilots and develop tactics. They will also have to setup all the maintenance infrastructure. All of these things take time.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 06 Jan 2018, 01:05
by nn8734
mixelflick wrote:So in the opinion of most here, is the SU-57 any kind of imminent threat to western air forces? I know it's no F-22, although other forums (keypub is one) speaks of the SU-57 as it's almost combat ready, the current engines work just fine for supercruise, the stealth is good enought etc..

Does anyone think it's something F-15 pilots need concern themselves with in the next 5 years?


Not in the next 5 years, unless they suddenly ramp up production (where’s the $$ coming from). By time the SU57 achieves IOC by Western standards (late 2020’s) when it could potentially pose a threat to our fourth gen stuff, well over 1000 F35s will be in service not to mention upgraded F22s. Additionally, Penetrating Counter Air will be coming out or relatively close at that time and dominate anything Russia or China puts in the sky.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 06 Jan 2018, 01:51
by arian
thismightgetdeleted wrote:I shall do a repost of a repost as well http://translate.google.co.in/translate ... 19&act=url don't feel like reposting the same GaN MMICs for the EW systems that clearly state was built by them in 2014 without any foreign exports, if its one ear in and out the other with you.....


It literally doesn't say any of that. It specifically says this:

But in fact in Russia are the programs for creating technological lines for solid-state microwave components?

A.K. Yes, they are. In particular, work on the development of GaN microwave transistor technologies is being carried out at the FGUP NPP Pulsar, FSUE NPP Istok, Svetlana, Elma-Malakhit, and several institutes of the Russian Academy of Sciences. This way is not easy. We do not expect the emergence of serial domestic devices based on GaN in less than eight to ten years.


Nowhere does it say anything about GaN modules for EW applications. Nowhere does it say without foreign imports. Nowhere does it say they are producing or considering any such a thing for any application other than experimental. It specifically says they are having problems with heat, which is exactly what I said earlier as well based on the physical characteristics of these modules from their scientific publications.

And the stuff I cited is from 2017.

You're simply not capable of understanding. You're a lost cause.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 06 Jan 2018, 09:11
by arian
thismightgetdeleted wrote:"Do you understand the meaning of the word R&D? Probably not" -Oh look it says it was developed at the end of the sentence lol. Your trolling is pretty funny


:roll:

Here you go: http://j.pulsarnpp.ru/images/journal/is ... peckij.pdf
http://j.pulsarnpp.ru/images/journal/is ... Ivanov.pdf

Final product of R&D:
6-channel module
6w Power
Dimensions: 258mm x 150mm x 58mm
Weight of module: 4.6kg

"World class" lol

So you hate my source when it said without foreign substitution that the MMICs were made?


You forgot to read where they imported from Cree and TriQuint. My sources are Russian scientific publications in this field from 2017 :wink:

Yours is Key Publishing Forum :doh:

sweet so where does it show the mm rha protection. 100mm and 125mm sound like tank cannon specifications in which they specifically use.


You don't understand BM-8 and BM-26? Do they hire non-Ruski speakers at the troll farm? Must be scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 06 Jan 2018, 19:45
by eloise
thismightgetdeleted wrote: digital news publication by definition even lists new york times and the guardian as such as well.

All scientists are human, does that mean all human are scientists? No.
thismightgetdeleted wrote: Admit what? that none of the articles suite your opinions?

Admit the fact that you can't find anything official from Russian MoD or PAK-FA manufacturer mentioning these combat radius, so you desperately try to cite random numbers from Sputnik and random blogs.

thismightgetdeleted wrote: Talking about the percentages here in thrust and range increase between either aircraft and why the F-35 has still not made the upgrade. Atleast explain what block upgrade it will be.

Current F-135 already have higher thrust than Type 30, PAK-FA doesn't have the Type 30 either, in fact it will only have that around the time F-35 will get ACE.

thismightgetdeleted wrote: and you demonstrated a lack of physics.

Nope, if anyone here demonstrated the lack of understanding in physics, that you. From your so called "3D AESA" to your hypothesis about how "UV sensor is better than IIR", to your imagination radar that operates from "1Hz to 100 Ghz", your understanding of physics is hardly better than a third grade students, nevermind anyone here.

thismightgetdeleted wrote:The mig-25 was pushed to dangerious levels by the pilot. the sr-71 has atleast 20,000 more lbs than the F-35 most of the F-35s thrust was for vertical lift. Its understandable that aircrafts have to be physically shaped a certain way but the thrust is needed for speed and the vertical take off was where most of the thrust was given to the F-35. I am sorry that you cant understand sarcastic jokes.

Nope, wrong again. Both SR-71 and Mig-25 have lower T/W than F-35, they can fly faster not because F-35 thrust only works at vertical take off but because variable inlet allow higher dynamic thrust at high speed than a fixed inlet due to better pressure recovery ratio.

thismightgetdeleted wrote: Lets make this more simple for you.....Has the US introduced GaN MMICs models for either of their radar or EW systems? I know the US can produce GaN but have they introduced any GaN MMICs T/R models specifically yet for aircraft?.

And let me make it simple for you, yes they did.


thismightgetdeleted wrote:You have seen basically all those MMICs in phazatron introduced right? within that time frame they have made alot of different variants like fga-35, fga-35(3d), fga-50 although that might be true for the mig than what what about their 5th gen design.

Arian already explained to you the GaN part and i have already explained to you since you still used Wewuzkangz account for like a billion times that all aircraft fire control radar are 3D radar.


thismightgetdeleted wrote: Your opinions and bias is becoming a little too cute now. https://translate.google.com/translate? ... rev=search Tell me whats the credibility of the AST Center?.

Read better next time:
The bmpd blog is an informal blog

The bmpd blog, however, is not a blog exclusively from the ACT Center, its executives or one of its employees. It publishes both the messages of the ACT Center and the messages of the authors,


thismightgetdeleted wrote:Yup that is the claimed range now what about whats in between?

I already taught you about the concept of Gain and atmosphere absorption last time you were here. Go back to old thread and read instead of hoping people will start to believe you just because you repeat the same BS with a different account.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 06 Jan 2018, 21:00
by juretrn
Oh boy, did he really say US doesn't have GaN radars?

Image

“Raytheon’s GaN technology is backed by 19 years of research and $300m in investment, while our competitors are either new to the market or primarily build GaN for commercial applications,” says Ralph Acaba, VP of Integrated Air and Missile Defense at Raytheon IDS.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 06 Jan 2018, 21:40
by sferrin
eloise wrote:
thismightgetdeleted wrote: Talking about the percentages here in thrust and range increase between either aircraft and why the F-35 has still not made the upgrade. Atleast explain what block upgrade it will be.

Current F-135 already have higher thrust than Type 30, PAK-FA doesn't have the Type 30 either, in fact it will only have that around the time F-35 will get ACE.


Russia or China would kill to get a GE -132 or P&W -232 at this point. (Both were run at 36k+ lbs thrust.) They're still dreaming of a nearly 30 year old F119, nevermind an F135 or the newer 3-stream engines both GE and P&W are testing.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 07 Jan 2018, 02:03
by arian
eloise wrote:
thismightgetdeleted wrote:You have seen basically all those MMICs in phazatron introduced right? within that time frame they have made alot of different variants like fga-35, fga-35(3d), fga-50 although that might be true for the mig than what what about their 5th gen design.


Arian already explained to you the GaN part and i have already explained to you since you still used Wewuzkangz account for like a billion times that all aircraft fire control radar are 3D radar.


All aircraft radar are 3D of course, but that's not what this mythical "3D" the Russians are claiming is. Even though Wewaz may be a silly ignorant troll, the Russian companies making them aren't so stupid as to claim it's a "3D" radar in that sense.

What they mean is the construction method for the modules. Instead of a "stick" module, they are talking about producing them in multiple "layers" on top of each other and hence you get a "3D" module. It refers to the production technique. Which of course it's nothing new at all.

And it's based of the civilian telecom technology the Russians licensed from Germany a few years ago. But again, this construction technique for modules has been used for a couple of decades in US AESAs.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 07 Jan 2018, 05:19
by mas
First Russian 5th generation Su-57 fighter jets to be put in service ‘very soon’ [presumably with Su-35 32klb engines]

https://www.rt.com/news/415166-su-57-russian-army-soon/

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 07 Jan 2018, 06:11
by arian
mas wrote:First Russian 5th generation Su-57 fighter jets to be put in service ‘very soon’ [presumably with Su-35 32klb engines]

https://www.rt.com/news/415166-su-57-russian-army-soon/


At only $50 million too. Amazing stuff. I'm so impressed. Especially about that article right next to it about laser shooting out of it. There is absolutely nothing Russia can't do better and cheaper. Nothing.

Except refrigerators.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 08 Jan 2018, 05:01
by Corsair1963
sferrin wrote:
eloise wrote:
thismightgetdeleted wrote: Talking about the percentages here in thrust and range increase between either aircraft and why the F-35 has still not made the upgrade. Atleast explain what block upgrade it will be.

Current F-135 already have higher thrust than Type 30, PAK-FA doesn't have the Type 30 either, in fact it will only have that around the time F-35 will get ACE.


Russia or China would kill to get a GE -132 or P&W -232 at this point. (Both were run at 36k+ lbs thrust.) They're still dreaming of a nearly 30 year old F119, nevermind an F135 or the newer 3-stream engines both GE and P&W are testing.



Yes, by time China and Russia get their Stealth Fighters in service in any real numbers. The US will have improved models of the F-35 with either upgraded F135's (Growth Option 1) or a Version of the ACE from P&W and/or GE.

Must just be driving them crazy! :bang:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 08 Jan 2018, 10:24
by botsing
mas wrote:First Russian 5th generation Su-57 fighter jets to be put in service ‘very soon’ [presumably with Su-35 32klb engines]

https://www.rt.com/news/415166-su-57-russian-army-soon/

Using RT as a "source".

LOL! :mrgreen:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 08 Jan 2018, 20:04
by wrightwing
By soon, he means 2027ish.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 08 Jan 2018, 20:13
by juretrn
wrightwing wrote:By soon, he means 2027ish.

Maybe RT is simply using time standards for nuclear fusion timelines?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 08 Jan 2018, 20:20
by mas
RT is actually not a bad source for non political news, don't think Su-57 intro date is political but I suppose it could be in a tangential way if they are trying to compete with F-35. Btw they are quoting the Joint Aviation Corporation (OAK) not themselves.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 08 Jan 2018, 20:44
by mixelflick
Does anyone else remember when the protoype flew in 2010 ?

IOC given was 2013 :mrgreen:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 08 Jan 2018, 20:44
by botsing
mas wrote:RT is actually not a bad source for non political news

That is just bad practice. RT, by design, will always blend in political propaganda with trivial news items and is therefor suspect and non-trustworthy by default.

It does have one benefit though, it makes us show your true colors by you trying to defend it.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 08 Jan 2018, 21:00
by juretrn
botsing wrote:It does have one benefit though, it makes us show your true colors by you trying to defend it.

I disagree, the best propaganda always has a grain of truth to it.
In this case, the BS is not a RT fabrication, but Russian MoD's.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 08 Jan 2018, 21:13
by botsing
juretrn wrote:
botsing wrote:It does have one benefit though, it makes us show your true colors by you trying to defend it.

I disagree, the best propaganda always has a grain of truth to it.
In this case, the BS is not a RT fabrication, but Russian MoD's.

If you want to research propaganda then sure, its a nice tool. As a reliable source for facts however, it's useless since there will always be a suspect taint to it.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 08 Jan 2018, 21:35
by mas
botsing wrote:
mas wrote:RT is actually not a bad source for non political news

That is just bad practice. RT, by design, will always blend in political propaganda with trivial news items and is therefor suspect and non-trustworthy by default.

It does have one benefit though, it makes us show your true colors by you trying to defend it.


Lol, not defending anything, just having an open mind and calling it like I find it. As a general rule though and in between all the propaganda the Western press will tell the Russians stuff their government doesn't want them to know and the Russian press will tell the West stuff their government doesn't want them to know. Bear that in mind and you can read sources from all round the world to get a more complete picture of what's happening. Are you disputing say for example in the 'always on their tail' story that the Russian pilot actually said that or that it actually happened ? I'm not discounting either proposition and I thought it was an interesting postscript to the ISIS aerial encounters.

I don't doubt for one minute that the F-22s were more interested in professionally husbanding the Su-25s away than any macho mock dogfights unlike the Russians who seem to thrive on such bravado. Or maybe it was the Russian air force just still trying to sell their aircraft hard in this age of stealth through lies or misrepresentations. Whether it is true or not something can be gained from this report whether it's actual facts or the emotional intentions of the Russians. Know your potential enemy ;).

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 08 Jan 2018, 23:45
by XanderCrews
arian wrote:
mas wrote:First Russian 5th generation Su-57 fighter jets to be put in service ‘very soon’ [presumably with Su-35 32klb engines]

https://www.rt.com/news/415166-su-57-russian-army-soon/


At only $50 million too. Amazing stuff. I'm so impressed. Especially about that article right next to it about laser shooting out of it. There is absolutely nothing Russia can't do better and cheaper. Nothing.

Except refrigerators.


As a capitalist I'm terrified. These guys haven't even been in the capitalism game 30 years and now hear they are. Beating us. We simply can't compete. Winning at our game!

We will all be flying on Russian built airliners that are as good but made for pennies on the dollar.

Goodnight sweet, Boeing

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 08 Jan 2018, 23:46
by XanderCrews
mas wrote:RT is actually not a bad source for non political news, don't think Su-57 intro date is political but I suppose it could be in a tangential way if they are trying to compete with F-35. Btw they are quoting the Joint Aviation Corporation (OAK) not themselves.


It's completely political because God emperor Putin has staked his Rep on it. Don't be naive.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2018, 00:01
by arian
"In service" can mean anything. Their definition of in service is different from ours. They can surely have 5 planes in some operational test unit "very soon" and call that operational.

As for RT's credibility in non-political stuff, I guess it's no worst than most of Western press. Total garbage. They literally have an article right next to the one mas posted saying the PAK-FA will be able to shoot down missiles with lasers. So there's your credibility. So basically like reading WaPo.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2018, 00:02
by XanderCrews
mas wrote:
Lol, not defending anything, just having an open mind and calling it like I find it. As a general rule though and in between all the propaganda the Western press will tell the Russians stuff their government doesn't want them to know and the Russian press will tell the West stuff their government doesn't want them to know. Bear that in mind and you can read sources from all round the world to get a more complete picture of what's happening.


Don't have a mind so open your brains fall out. You're saying we need to give propoganda a chance because open mindedness requires we give equal weight to bullshit under the guise that it runs counter to convention. What if the convention is the truth?

"Hey wait a minute guys, this is a conman and a liar with his own agenda, but let's listen as if he was a virtuous truth teller about our government"

Once someone has been proven to be a liar, and a ruthless and cunning one at that, your foolish to give his words validity

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2018, 00:03
by XanderCrews
arian wrote:"In service" can mean anything. Their definition of in service is different from ours. They can surely have 5 planes in some operational test unit "very soon" and call that operational.

As for RT's credibility in non-political stuff, I guess it's no worst than most of Western press. Total garbage. They literally have an article right next to the one mas posted saying the PAK-FA will be able to shoot down missiles with lasers. So there's your credibility. So basically like reading WaPo.



I'd say the key difference between Russian state run media vs the west, is the West is basically incompetant, and biased. But it's not a state run propoganda arm

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2018, 00:31
by arian
XanderCrews wrote:I'd say the key difference between Russian state run media vs the west, is the West is basically incompetant, and biased. But it's not a state run propoganda arm


You don't have to be a state run, when you run yourself as the propaganda arm of a political party. In that sense, it's a lot worst than RT.

Intentional lies look a lot like incompetence if one assumes they are interested in reporting "the truth". But as Future President Oprah told us, they're only interested in telling you "their truth".

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2018, 11:41
by zero-one
XanderCrews wrote:


At only $50 million too. Amazing stuff. I'm so impressed. Especially about that article right next to it about laser shooting out of it. There is absolutely nothing Russia can't do better and cheaper. Nothing.

Except refrigerators.

As a capitalist I'm terrified. These guys haven't even been in the capitalism game 30 years and now hear they are. Beating us. We simply can't compete. Winning at our game!

We will all be flying on Russian built airliners that are as good but made for pennies on the dollar.

Goodnight sweet, Boeing


Great, except all their military aviation projects were supposed to be better, faster, deadlier and at the same time cheaper, easier to produce and maintain than their western counterparts.

Except its not, when the west finally get their hands on these planes, they are always underwhelmed. Yes there are aspects that are impressive, but mostly, there are a lot of negatives.

The Mig-15, Mig-21, Mig-25, Mig-29 and Su-27 all have the same story.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2018, 21:30
by XanderCrews
zero-one wrote:
XanderCrews wrote:


At only $50 million too. Amazing stuff. I'm so impressed. Especially about that article right next to it about laser shooting out of it. There is absolutely nothing Russia can't do better and cheaper. Nothing.

Except refrigerators.

As a capitalist I'm terrified. These guys haven't even been in the capitalism game 30 years and now hear they are. Beating us. We simply can't compete. Winning at our game!

We will all be flying on Russian built airliners that are as good but made for pennies on the dollar.

Goodnight sweet, Boeing


Great, except all their military aviation projects were supposed to be better, faster, deadlier and at the same time cheaper, easier to produce and maintain than their western counterparts.

Except its not, when the west finally get their hands on these planes, they are always underwhelmed. Yes there are aspects that are impressive, but mostly, there are a lot of negatives.

The Mig-15, Mig-21, Mig-25, Mig-29 and Su-27 all have the same story.



Well thats the rub isn't it? The funniest things about the Russian just doing it better, faster, cheaper, is that they aren't even flooding their own markets with better faster cheaper stuff. its same same.

And BTW 50 million for a PAKFA? If thats true, and you combine that with all the amazing Russia Stronk Capability I'm told it brings, there is no reason to purchase a single Flanker of any variant ever again. According to good old Wiki, 40-65 million is the cost for an Su-35S. Su-57 is next gen and now "sixth gen" in 10 years. Su-57 should be in Serial production RIGHT NOW.

So things aren't adding up at all, but we knew that. On what planet do you "save" 10 million dollars by buying a far inferior product?

So Russia, managed to get the super capitalist game changing airplane, and then those super capitalists made a very non capitalist decision?

It was pointed out a few years ago by people in the know that even a "Mistake jet" Early LRIP F-35 was going to be superior to what it was replacing. Mind numbing that the Russians havn't figured this out.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2018, 22:04
by botsing
mas wrote:Lol, not defending anything, just having an open mind and calling it like I find it.

The thief and the serial killer are both in jail, so morally they are the same right? :doh:

Western "news" media like Fox are capitalist corporations that want to increase profit, targeting a big and relative naive/impulsive audience is key to selling more advertisements, so consider their content made to attract such audience.

Russian "news" media like RT are government run propaganda tools to target a non-Russian population, so consider their content propaganda.

Don't pretend western media is on the same level as Russian propaganda, since they are not.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2018, 06:51
by tincansailor
arian wrote:
XanderCrews wrote:I'd say the key difference between Russian state run media vs the west, is the West is basically incompetant, and biased. But it's not a state run propoganda arm


You don't have to be a state run, when you run yourself as the propaganda arm of a political party. In that sense, it's a lot worst than RT.

Intentional lies look a lot like incompetence if one assumes they are interested in reporting "the truth". But as Future President Oprah told us, they're only interested in telling you "their truth".



Do you guys realize your talking about your political views?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2018, 15:20
by XanderCrews
tincansailor wrote:
Do you guys realize your talking about your political views?


Do you realize we are talking about media bias with a throwaway sarcastic line about Oprah?

Apparently not. Please go away now before you do to this thread what You always do

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2018, 22:52
by charlielima223
botsing wrote:
mas wrote:Lol, not defending anything, just having an open mind and calling it like I find it.

The thief and the serial killer are both in jail, so morally they are the same right? :doh:

Western "news" media like Fox are capitalist corporations that want to increase profit, targeting a big and relative naive/impulsive audience is key to selling more advertisements, so consider their content made to attract such audience.

Russian "news" media like RT are government run propaganda tools to target a non-Russian population, so consider their content propaganda.

Don't pretend western media is on the same level as Russian propaganda, since they are not.


Having a government run media program means that freedom of press (no matter the view/opinion/story/content) WILL NOT EXIST. Media outlets like RT, Sputnik, and Pravada all have a very very obvious Pro-Russia slant where they perpetuate and over inflate themselves while demonizing the west (United States and NATO countries). US Media for the most part IS NOT government controlled. However their propaganda is more politically (left and right) driven then anything else rather then "Merica F-YEAH!".

back to the PAKFA...

The pace of the PAKFA have been glacier. Big whoop they tested a new engine that is finally comparable to the F-119 that was developed more than 20 years ago. They don't even have an AESA radar yet or matured avionics let alone done any substantial weapons tests. Yet I've seen Kremlin trolls claim the PAKFA will be a gen 5+ "stealth killer". I've said it in a comment section that the PAKFA is late to the party. Also, why is the Su-35 always being referred to a gen 4.5++ when it doesn't have an AESA radar or something comparable (that I know of) to link-16.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 11 Jan 2018, 15:42
by mixelflick
You bring up some valid points about the SU-35 and SU-57.

SU-35 is 4.75 gen without an AESA, probably supercruise as well as stealth. The SU-57 may be a super-cruiser, but marginal stealth and god knows what's in the nose/weapons bays. The way they're selling it it comes across as a modern day firefox, but that's to be expected. And lol at $50 million a copy! So they're pumping out 5th gen birds for less than the cost of 4+ gen jets?

Something is seriously wrong with the technology, marketing or both.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 11 Jan 2018, 15:52
by XanderCrews
charlielima223 wrote:
botsing wrote:
mas wrote:Lol, not defending anything, just having an open mind and calling it like I find it.

The thief and the serial killer are both in jail, so morally they are the same right? :doh:

Western "news" media like Fox are capitalist corporations that want to increase profit, targeting a big and relative naive/impulsive audience is key to selling more advertisements, so consider their content made to attract such audience.

Russian "news" media like RT are government run propaganda tools to target a non-Russian population, so consider their content propaganda.

Don't pretend western media is on the same level as Russian propaganda, since they are not.


Having a government run media program means that freedom of press (no matter the view/opinion/story/content) WILL NOT EXIST. Media outlets like RT, Sputnik, and Pravada all have a very very obvious Pro-Russia slant where they perpetuate and over inflate themselves while demonizing the west (United States and NATO countries). US Media for the most part IS NOT government controlled. However their propaganda is more politically (left and right) driven then anything else rather then "Merica F-YEAH!".


Something like 90 percent of reporters identify as liberal, or left leaning. What happened the last 8 years was the left was so in the presidents pocket, they basically became a defacto government propoganda arm. GW was slayed for gitmo by the press for years, Obama used drone strikes to kill kids, "terrorists" and even occasionally Americans and the press barely mentioned it. I guess noble peace prize winners just do things like that! Lol.


He spent 1 trillion on "infrastructure" . In 2013 (after he was reelected) the press said American infrastructure was falling apart. Where did the money go? Why wasn't this reported in 2012?

It's a joke and an obvious one. It's not a matter of if but how much when 90 percent of your work force identify as liberal in a business where objectivity is considered a corner stone

Obama deported more immigrants than any other president in US history. We get crickets.

It's the same old story if this made you mad when guy X does it, why aren't you mad when guy Y does it? If not doing it made you like guy X why does guy Y not doing it bother you?

The saddest thing about Obama and the press giving him a pass, was the security state became the new normal. Obama could have peeled back a lot of unconstitutional measures and everyone could have gone "wow things got a bit crazy there! Back to normal now" instead he made them worse, weaponized the IRS, and put programs like PRISM in place. It's the new normal now. It's bipartisan bad. It's ok when our guy does it.

Press better use their voice before they lose it, and it will be a beloved lefty they never question that will do it

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 11 Jan 2018, 16:25
by XanderCrews
mixelflick wrote:You bring up some valid points about the SU-35 and SU-57.

SU-35 is 4.75 gen without an AESA, probably supercruise as well as stealth. The SU-57 may be a super-cruiser, but marginal stealth and god knows what's in the nose/weapons bays. The way they're selling it it comes across as a modern day firefox, but that's to be expected. And lol at $50 million a copy! So they're pumping out 5th gen birds for less than the cost of 4+ gen jets?

Something is seriously wrong with the technology, marketing or both.



Thats what I'm screaming. It should all be Pakfas now

They are better and they cost less and they aren't buying them?

How did the West trick them into this

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 12 Jan 2018, 16:25
by mixelflick
I wish to make a prediction re SU-57...

The Russians won't be the first to buy and fly it: The UAE will. They're trying like hell to get the F-35, but you just know that isn't going to happen. The Saudi's are too, but they're unlikely to buy Russian equipment. Even before India (who I believe is goiing to pull the plug soon - for good). And when the UAE sees what they get for the $, it wouldn't surprise me if they return them!

They seem to be on the super sampler pack acquisition plan: F-16E/F's, F-18E/F SH's, Mirage 2000-9's, Advanced F-15's, Typhoon's. Everything except a bona fide 5th gen that can strike sensitive targets and/or hold them at risk. Would love to be a pilot there. But not a logistics guy!

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 13 Jan 2018, 19:33
by milosh
Wiki data about Su-35 price is export price, domestic price is lot lower:
http://www.deagel.com/Combat-Aircraft/S ... 20005.aspx

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 14 Jan 2018, 01:18
by XanderCrews
milosh wrote:Wiki data about Su-35 price is export price, domestic price is lot lower:
http://www.deagel.com/Combat-Aircraft/S ... 20005.aspx



22 million?


Image

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 14 Jan 2018, 19:15
by botsing
XanderCrews wrote:22 million?

Can it be the real price when you only count the empty airframe? So without engines and avionics?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 14 Jan 2018, 19:33
by XanderCrews
botsing wrote:
XanderCrews wrote:22 million?

Can it be the real price when you only count the empty airframe? So without engines and avionics?


Without engines a Super hornet costs the USN about 10 million less. It's still about 60 million bucks.

The source I used said the Flankers were between 40-65 million so the export customers are paying double or triple apparently? Lol

Again why Russia isn't flooding the avaition market with 737 competitors that are a 1/3 the cost to buy and operate I have no idea.

Russia is that kid that brags on the playground and when you ask him to demonstrate he doesn't feel like it or is injured.

Russia is a parrelel universe with old and crumbling infrastructure contrasted and poor people with industrial efficiency unmatched by the West in cost and capability. But they only use it to produce a few dozen warplanes a year instead of fixing a country that is decades behind.
Complicated I guess

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 14 Jan 2018, 23:12
by alloycowboy
XanderCrews wrote:
botsing wrote:
XanderCrews wrote:22 million?

Can it be the real price when you only count the empty airframe? So without engines and avionics?


Without engines a Super hornet costs the USN about 10 million less. It's still about 60 million bucks.

The source I used said the Flankers were between 40-65 million so the export customers are paying double or triple apparently? Lol

Again why Russia isn't flooding the avaition market with 737 competitors that are a 1/3 the cost to buy and operate I have no idea.

Russia is that kid that brags on the playground and when you ask him to demonstrate he doesn't feel like it or is injured.

Russia is a parrelel universe with old and crumbling infrastructure contrasted and poor people with industrial efficiency unmatched by the West in cost and capability. But they only use it to produce a few dozen warplanes a year instead of fixing a country that is decades behind.
Complicated I guess



Why isn't Russia flooding the market with a 737 competitor at 1/3 price? Because Boeing will have the US Government slap a 300% tarrif on it, just ask Delta and Bombardier.

With that being said the Comac C919 is about to come on fast and furious so Airbus and Boeing better start thinking about replacement aircraft for the 737 and A320 series.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 14 Jan 2018, 23:20
by milosh
It look like we have some confusion. So let me try to explain, Su-35 domestic price is what is known as flyaway price but probable without any profit for Sukhoi.

That is why Su-35 can cost 2.5time less for Russian AF then for Chinese AF. Also Chinese bought lot of engine spare parts and engines which of course will rise price of whole deal a lot.

Mentioned price of Su-57 is probable same thing, flyaway price of bird without any profit. So Su-57 is surely lot more expensive then Su-35, which is what official comfirm many times in past.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 14 Jan 2018, 23:30
by XanderCrews
milosh wrote:It look like we have some confusion. So let me try to explain, Su-35 domestic price is what is known as flyaway price but probable without any profit for Sukhoi.
.


So sukhoi builds aircraft for the RuAf for zero profit?

Even then I don't believe the number even for a second. There is no other contemporary fighter where the companies building are pulling 50 percent profit or more.

It's closer to about 5 percent profit In my experience.

None of this is even close to believability

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 14 Jan 2018, 23:34
by XanderCrews
alloycowboy wrote:
Why isn't Russia flooding the market with a 737 competitor at 1/3 price? Because Boeing will have the US Government slap a 300% tarrif on it, just ask Delta and Bombardier.

.


And yet even Canada attempted it? Not the rule following russians?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 14 Jan 2018, 23:41
by milosh
XanderCrews wrote:
milosh wrote:It look like we have some confusion. So let me try to explain, Su-35 domestic price is what is known as flyaway price but probable without any profit for Sukhoi.
.


So sukhoi builds aircraft for the RuAf for zero profit?

Even then I don't believe the number even for a second. There is no other contemporary fighter where the companies building are pulling 50 percent profit or more.

It's closer to about 5 percent profit In my experience.

None of this is even close to believability


Don't forget it was price in rubles converted in dollars, so before ruble droped it would be lot more in dollars.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 15 Jan 2018, 18:37
by botsing
milosh wrote:Don't forget it was price in rubles converted in dollars, so before ruble droped it would be lot more in dollars.

It's too bad that the link you provided does not state a source and/or history of that price.

With the RUB loosing a lot of it's value over the last ten years that "Unitary Cost" in USD can be anything between ~22 and ~52 million USD, depending on when it was stated.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 15 Jan 2018, 21:59
by milosh
botsing wrote:
milosh wrote:Don't forget it was price in rubles converted in dollars, so before ruble droped it would be lot more in dollars.

It's too bad that the link you provided does not state a source and/or history of that price.

With the RUB loosing a lot of it's value over the last ten years that "Unitary Cost" in USD can be anything between ~22 and ~52 million USD, depending on when it was stated.


In December 2015, Russia's defense ministry signed a five-year contract with Sukhoi company worth more than 60 billion rubles for the supply of 50 multi-role fighters Su-35S for the Russian air force.


More then 60 billion rubles, so between 60 and 70 billion rubles.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 15:56
by mixelflick
milosh wrote:Wiki data about Su-35 price is export price, domestic price is lot lower:
http://www.deagel.com/Combat-Aircraft/S ... 20005.aspx


22 million for a Super Flanker? This has to be the buy of the decade. So (roughly) the Russians - or anyone with the $ - could be 4 Flankers for every F-35!?

Someone needs to alert Karlo Kopp/APA. Can you imagine the article that follows? F-35 can't turn, can't run, can't climb and only carries 4 AAM's. Even if it isn't slaughtered early and launches all 4 AMRAAM's, they'll need a 100% success rate to succeed. I mean c'mon, 22 million. And 50 million for the PAK-FA?

When the Russian air force sees the real cost of the SU-57 vs. what it gives them above and beyond the SU-35, I'm guessing the production run ends at 12. That way they'll be able to say they have a stealth fighter and afford it..

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 17:06
by XanderCrews
botsing wrote:
milosh wrote:Don't forget it was price in rubles converted in dollars, so before ruble droped it would be lot more in dollars.

It's too bad that the link you provided does not state a source and/or history of that price.

With the RUB loosing a lot of it's value over the last ten years that "Unitary Cost" in USD can be anything between ~22 and ~52 million USD, depending on when it was stated.



It's all made up anyway. If RT was the source would we believe it anymore? What about the Russian gov or sukhou themselves?

None of it is believable

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 18:54
by milosh
@mixelflick

Real Su-35 price (with logistic) is surely higher then 22millions. Chinese are paying ~60million per Su-35 but we don't know did they also buy lot of 117 engines because it look like 117 engine is what really interest China, if WS-15 fail they need to have some backup option.

Su-57 price is surely higher then Su-35, you can check indian sources for example.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 17 Jan 2018, 16:42
by mixelflick
Even 60 million seems cheap for a delivered SU-35. All that supposed capability/superiority vs. any 4th or 4th+ gen, and it's significantly cheaper vs. Typhoon or Rafale? Or even FA/18 SH?

Something doesn't add up. Either it's 1.) not as capable as they say or 2.) the Russians discovered some breakthrough in engineering/construction. The basic airframe is solid enough. The engines appear to be acceptable/better than past iterations. I'm betting where it really falls down is in BVR capability. It seems they've seeded this capability to the West, seeing as "supermaneuverability" is prioritized so much.

They either haven't looked at the data showing BVR kills are now the norm or don't believe it. I can't tell which. Regardless, they're betting awful big on getting to the merge and more importantly, winning there. The 9x is going to be a nasty surprise methinks.

That combination of fewer making it to the merge and even fewer making it out will be their un-doing. They no longer have a 3 or 4 to 1 advantage in airframes, so they can't afford too many losses. Part of me thinks they should have just continued stamping out thousands of Mig-21 like aircraft and doing the best they can with those. As the old saying goes, quantity has a quality all its own..

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 18 Jan 2018, 01:20
by nutshell
You forgot the option n° 3: MAGIC.


P.s. supermaneuvrabili-bleed is more correct :mrgreen:

Flankers bleeding more than me with both of my wrists cut wide open by a rusty machete.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 18 Jan 2018, 05:27
by XanderCrews
mixelflick wrote:Even 60 million seems cheap for a delivered SU-35. All that supposed capability/superiority vs. any 4th or 4th+ gen, and it's significantly cheaper vs. Typhoon or Rafale? Or even FA/18 SH?

Something doesn't add up. Either it's 1.) not as capable as they say or 2.) the Russians discovered some breakthrough in engineering/construction. The basic airframe is solid enough. The engines appear to be acceptable/better than past iterations. I'm betting where it really falls down is in BVR capability. It seems they've seeded this capability to the West, seeing as "supermaneuverability" is prioritized so much.

They either haven't looked at the data showing BVR kills are now the norm or don't believe it. I can't tell which. Regardless, they're betting awful big on getting to the merge and more importantly, winning there. The 9x is going to be a nasty surprise methinks.

That combination of fewer making it to the merge and even fewer making it out will be their un-doing. They no longer have a 3 or 4 to 1 advantage in airframes, so they can't afford too many losses. Part of me thinks they should have just continued stamping out thousands of Mig-21 like aircraft and doing the best they can with those. As the old saying goes, quantity has a quality all its own..



I have a few books that really go deep into Russian strategy. I need to find some time time to read them. I don't know If the notion of the quality vs quantities really applies to the Air.

Russia is in an unprecedented state. We've never seen a super collapse like this in the sense that it was the largest military on the planet complete with nuclear weapons.

At the tail end of the USSR they were beginning to suggest an actual volunteer military. It was wild stuff at the time

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 18 Jan 2018, 12:59
by hornetfinn
One thing to remember is that Russian/Soviet equipment has had quite different pricing system compared to Western ones. Generally they have been cheaper to acquire but have had higher support costs. Lifetime costs can be equal or even higher in Russian equipment especially considering that they often have had shorter service life. There has been big improvements made in these areas, but I bet there is still real difference to Western aircraft.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 19 Jan 2018, 02:09
by icemaverick
India spent ~$8.8 billion for 36 Rafales. They already operate the Su-30MKI, which has many components in common with the Su-35, and they are of course investing in an Su-57 derivative. They surely had good reason to spend that kind of money on Rafales when Flanker variants can be had for much cheaper....especially considering that an Indian company assembles the Su-30MKI domestically and even subcontracted to build some components for the Su-30MKM (Malaysia).

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 19 Jan 2018, 16:44
by mixelflick
icemaverick wrote:India spent ~$8.8 billion for 36 Rafales. They already operate the Su-30MKI, which has many components in common with the Su-35, and they are of course investing in an Su-57 derivative. They surely had good reason to spend that kind of money on Rafales when Flanker variants can be had for much cheaper....especially considering that an Indian company assembles the Su-30MKI domestically and even subcontracted to build some components for the Su-30MKM (Malaysia).


This is a really good point. Why spend all that cash on Rafale's when an SU-35 can be had cheaper? Or SU-34? Or more MKI's? I think one answer is engines, as they've had it with the unreliability and TBO issues. Another may be the SU-30/35 supposed air to ground capabilities. Dumping a few dumb bombs onto the enemy isn't cuting it to claim an air to ground capability. Still another is EW suite, and as I understand it the Rafale is at the top of they heap here.

But it was a truncated buy, and not nearly enough. I recently saw a story they were updating their Jaguar's. Probably a good move given their selection of more swing role combat aircraft is notoriously slow. The big worry (if it was me) is the total lack of a low RCS aircraft anywhere on the horizon. If they're waiting for the FGFA/SU-57, going to be a LONG time, with no guarantee it'll be VLO (or even LO). I really think they should make a pitch for the F-35, as I see it as their only option. China will have 2 stealth platforms eventually, and they need something similar so as to not fall way, way behind..

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 19 Jan 2018, 17:47
by icemaverick
The Indian procurement is always a big cluster it seems. I’d add that while the Rafale is not VLO, it certainly has a lower RCS than anything the Chinese or Pakistanis currently operate. In addition to superior A2G ordinance it probably has better air to air missiles than what the Russian jets offer. MICA and Meteor are probably better than the R-77 variants.

Nevertheless, it looks the Indians found the Rafale to be too expensive and they don’t seem keen on another buy at the moment. Right now they are looking into procuring a single engine fighter with the leading candidates being an advanced F-16 variant or the Gripen E.

I wouldn’t be so sure that the Chinese’s 5th gen platforms will actually be better than the Su-57 though. They’ve done a good job of copying the shape of the F-22 and F-35 in certain aspects but there is a lot more to it than that. It’s interesting that the Chinese are still buying Su-35s and are using Russian engines for most of their aircraft. As the Russians are building an original design, they probably have more confidence in their understanding of the tech.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 19 Jan 2018, 18:22
by milosh
@mixelflick

Rafale is selected for MMCA (medium multirole) so Su-30MKI couldn't be even consider for MMCA and with huge fleet of Su-30MKI there isn't real need for more especially when they need money to upgrade them (Super 30 program).

Old Rafale deal would have big transfer of technology and price would be lot lower then what they got but MMCA program collapsed.

They stay in Rafale deal because of transfer of technology and need for modern CATOBAR multirole fighter for future Vishal carrier.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 19 Jan 2018, 19:56
by icemaverick
milosh wrote:@mixelflick

Rafale is selected for MMCA (medium multirole) so Su-30MKI couldn't be even consider for MMCA and with huge fleet of Su-30MKI there isn't real need for more especially when they need money to upgrade them (Super 30 program).


That doesn’t make sense. First off, why did they exclude the Su-30MKI? It is after all a multi role aircraft, no? Even though it is “large” and not “medium” in size it would surely be cheaper to buy more Sukhois than to buy Typhoons or Rafales. If they needed more money to upgrade their Flankers why would they spend $8.8 billion on buying Rafales? This is an especially telling decision when you consider the IAF is well short of it’s required number of combat aircraft.

They stay in Rafale deal because of transfer of technology and need for modern CATOBAR multirole fighter for future Vishal carrier.


There is no transfer of technology in the new Rafale deal; it was a completely new deal from the MMCA competition. The Indian Rafales are all of the land based variety and there are no plans at the moment to buy a carrier based version.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 19 Jan 2018, 22:02
by milosh
icemaverick wrote:That doesn’t make sense. First off, why did they exclude the Su-30MKI? It is after all a multi role aircraft, no?


Because MTOW requirment if I rember correct.

icemaverick wrote:There is no transfer of technology in the new Rafale deal; it was a completely new deal from the MMCA competition. The Indian Rafales are all of the land based variety and there are no plans at the moment to buy a carrier based version.


France offered help with Kaveri engine as part of 36 Rafale deal.

There isn't reason now to buy Rafale M but for future Vishal carrier Rafale M would be excellent option.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 20 Jan 2018, 17:10
by mixelflick
I wholeheartedly agree, Rafale for their carrier makes a LOT more sense than the Mig-29K.

It's going to be a world apart (ahead) insofar as avionics and weapons, to say nothing of the lowered RCS. The Mig-29K isn't exactly selling itself, as one crashed waiting to land on the Kustenov during her Syria deployment. The fact they only flew 4 from her deck is another sign, IMO. Apparently, Russia is foregoing the SU-33 for the Mig-29K now too. While I can understand it has a much smaller deck footprint, it's also shorter ranged. And given no catapault gear, its weapons load is going to be limited as well.

I get the sense it was selected because it was more of a "strike fighter" than then SU-33, that being its one advantage over its larger breatheren. Still, with no real tanking capability (or is it a buddy tanker?), it made little sense to me. India will have all the same issues. The Rafale is infinitely more capable...

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 22 Jan 2018, 03:07
by Corsair1963
milosh wrote:
There isn't reason now to buy Rafale M but for future Vishal carrier Rafale M would be excellent option.



No, the Rafale wouldn't be a good option let alone an excellent one. As 4/4.5 Generation Fighters are on the verge of becoming obsolete!

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 22 Jan 2018, 17:30
by milosh
mixelflick wrote:I get the sense it was selected because it was more of a "strike fighter" than then SU-33, that being its one advantage over its larger breatheren. Still, with no real tanking capability (or is it a buddy tanker?), it made little sense to me. India will have all the same issues. The Rafale is infinitely more capable...


MiG-29K range is probable better then Su-33, Su-33 info on net isn't correct it is lot heavier and carry less fuel then Su-27 so fuel fraction isn't good as with Su-27. On other hand MiG-29K isn't lot heavier then MiG-29 but fuel capacity is increased a lot (30-40% more internal fuel), plus MiG-29K is buddy tanker capable.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 24 Jan 2018, 02:19
by Corsair1963
milosh wrote:
mixelflick wrote:I get the sense it was selected because it was more of a "strike fighter" than then SU-33, that being its one advantage over its larger breatheren. Still, with no real tanking capability (or is it a buddy tanker?), it made little sense to me. India will have all the same issues. The Rafale is infinitely more capable...


MiG-29K range is probable better then Su-33, Su-33 info on net isn't correct it is lot heavier and carry less fuel then Su-27 so fuel fraction isn't good as with Su-27. On other hand MiG-29K isn't lot heavier then MiG-29 but fuel capacity is increased a lot (30-40% more internal fuel), plus MiG-29K is buddy tanker capable.




Without even looking I doubt the Mig-29K has better range than any model of the Flanker. Even the Naval Su-33..... :doh:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 24 Jan 2018, 15:10
by mixelflick
milosh wrote:
mixelflick wrote:I get the sense it was selected because it was more of a "strike fighter" than then SU-33, that being its one advantage over its larger breatheren. Still, with no real tanking capability (or is it a buddy tanker?), it made little sense to me. India will have all the same issues. The Rafale is infinitely more capable...


MiG-29K range is probable better then Su-33, Su-33 info on net isn't correct it is lot heavier and carry less fuel then Su-27 so fuel fraction isn't good as with Su-27. On other hand MiG-29K isn't lot heavier then MiG-29 but fuel capacity is increased a lot (30-40% more internal fuel), plus MiG-29K is buddy tanker capable.


First time I've heard this, although I guess it could be true. Even if it isn't, I get the feeling the SU-33 is hopelessly out-dated and probably a bear to work on. What was it, almost 20 years since she was built vs. operationally deployed to sea? I see the SU-33 with such limited air to ground capability vs. the Mig-29K, which if I'm not mistaken makes use of much more precision weaponary..

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 14 Jul 2018, 03:35
by aaam
If (that's If) the following is true, it may be more than a decade...

(I'm posting this elsewhere because of the importance.)

http://www.businessinsider.com/russia-a ... ?r=UK&IR=T

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 14 Jul 2018, 21:14
by mixelflick
aaam wrote:If (that's If) the following is true, it may be more than a decade...

(I'm posting this elsewhere because of the importance.)

http://www.businessinsider.com/russia-a ... ?r=UK&IR=T


The Russians are now at a crossroads, staring into the abyss...

This was their first (and probably only) stab at a "stealth" aircraft, and it failed. They've sunk a lot of $ into it, and it's apparently never going to be mass produced. The F-35 and probably FC-31 are going to flood the export market, limiting the SU-57's international appeal. A production run of 12 birds is going to be insanely expensive, and probably buy them only marginal capability vs. the SU-35. So why build it at all?

That's really the question. What I got from this press release is that they're not even going to attempt to field a 5th gen, instead trying to field a 6th gen (good luck with that). I think we're seeing the beginning of the end for Russia as a designer and certainly exporter of cutting edge combat aircraft. In some ways its sad to see, but in others... a victory for the United States. When that first F-117 came off the line, that started it. After that, they just couldn't keep up...

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 14 Jul 2018, 23:33
by project458
mixelflick wrote:
aaam wrote:If (that's If)

This was their first (and probably only) stab at a "stealth" aircraft, and it failed. They've sunk a lot of $ into it, and it's apparently never going to be mass produced. The F-35 and probably FC-31 are going to flood the export market, limiting the SU-57's international appeal. A production run of 12 birds is going to be insanely expensive, and probably buy them only marginal capability vs. the SU-35. So why build it at all?



That's really the question. What I got from this press release is that they're not even going to attempt to field a 5th gen, instead trying to field a 6th gen (good luck with that). I think we're seeing the beginning of the end for Russia as a designer and certainly exporter of cutting edge combat aircraft. In some ways its sad to see, but in others... a victory for the United States. When that first F-117 came off the line, that started it. After that, they just couldn't keep up...


Russia can't keep up? hahahha meet Okhotnik-B (Hunter) :mrgreen:

Image


Lol I think your just smoking to much weed if you really think that, Russia is currently No. 2 when it comes to fighters exports, you think they will let all that business slip away? Flanker exports are still going strong, they will hold the market until Su-57 is ready,


As for the source "business insider" ? LOL when you click that link to the "Scientist" it goes straight to Error 404, which says a lot about quality of your source.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 15 Jul 2018, 00:03
by hythelday
project458 wrote:
mixelflick wrote:
aaam wrote:If (that's If)

This was their first (and probably only) stab at a "stealth" aircraft, and it failed. They've sunk a lot of $ into it, and it's apparently never going to be mass produced. The F-35 and probably FC-31 are going to flood the export market, limiting the SU-57's international appeal. A production run of 12 birds is going to be insanely expensive, and probably buy them only marginal capability vs. the SU-35. So why build it at all?



That's really the question. What I got from this press release is that they're not even going to attempt to field a 5th gen, instead trying to field a 6th gen (good luck with that). I think we're seeing the beginning of the end for Russia as a designer and certainly exporter of cutting edge combat aircraft. In some ways its sad to see, but in others... a victory for the United States. When that first F-117 came off the line, that started it. After that, they just couldn't keep up...


Russia can't keep up? hahahha meet Okhotnik-B (Hunter) :mrgreen:

Image


Lol I think your just smoking to much weed if you really think that, Russia is currently No. 2 when it comes to fighters exports, you think they will let all that business slip away? Flanker exports are still going strong, they will hold the market until Su-57 is ready...


Cool, where can I meet this Hunter thing? I have a feeling it's parked right next to that Iranian stealth fighter in the "plastic body parts and matte paint hangar". How many have been flight tested? How many are produced every year? When's the IOC?

For any of other board members wondering "НИР"/"NIR" acronym before the name means научно-исследовательская работа/scientific-research project. In other words it's an X-plane, at best.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 15 Jul 2018, 00:08
by juretrn
project458 wrote:
mixelflick wrote:
aaam wrote:If (that's If)

This was their first (and probably only) stab at a "stealth" aircraft, and it failed. They've sunk a lot of $ into it, and it's apparently never going to be mass produced. The F-35 and probably FC-31 are going to flood the export market, limiting the SU-57's international appeal. A production run of 12 birds is going to be insanely expensive, and probably buy them only marginal capability vs. the SU-35. So why build it at all?



That's really the question. What I got from this press release is that they're not even going to attempt to field a 5th gen, instead trying to field a 6th gen (good luck with that). I think we're seeing the beginning of the end for Russia as a designer and certainly exporter of cutting edge combat aircraft. In some ways its sad to see, but in others... a victory for the United States. When that first F-117 came off the line, that started it. After that, they just couldn't keep up...


Russia can't keep up? hahahha meet Okhotnik-B (Hunter) :mrgreen:

Image


Lol I think your just smoking to much weed if you really think that, Russia is currently No. 2 when it comes to fighters exports, you think they will let all that business slip away? Flanker exports are still going strong, they will hold the market until Su-57 is ready,


As for the source "business insider" ? LOL when you click that link to the "Scientist" it goes straight to Error 404, which says a lot about quality of your source.

We've seen this thing in the flesh about as much as that Iranian supposed stealth fighter. Meanwhile, you've got X-45, X-47A/B/C, MQ-25, Polecat...
Keeping up, very funny. Kinda like the class's fat kid at gym class is keeping up.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 15 Jul 2018, 00:32
by cobra321
mixelflick wrote:
aaam wrote:If (that's If) the following is true, it may be more than a decade...

(I'm posting this elsewhere because of the importance.)

http://www.businessinsider.com/russia-a ... ?r=UK&IR=T


The Russians are now at a crossroads, staring into the abyss...

This was their first (and probably only) stab at a "stealth" aircraft, and it failed. They've sunk a lot of $ into it, and it's apparently never going to be mass produced. The F-35 and probably FC-31 are going to flood the export market, limiting the SU-57's international appeal. A production run of 12 birds is going to be insanely expensive, and probably buy them only marginal capability vs. the SU-35. So why build it at all?

That's really the question. What I got from this press release is that they're not even going to attempt to field a 5th gen, instead trying to field a 6th gen (good luck with that). I think we're seeing the beginning of the end for Russia as a designer and certainly exporter of cutting edge combat aircraft. In some ways its sad to see, but in others... a victory for the United States. When that first F-117 came off the line, that started it. After that, they just couldn't keep up...



Come on. I don't usually defend Russian equipment but where does this exaggeration about the su 57 stop ?

Most of what has been said about the lack of stealth is just nonsense. All of these so called flaws in the design exist in other US stealth designs. First the intake. The intake does not show any more engine face than the YF-23 or X-32 design did. It does not have the same S duct setup as the F-22. But it does have offset intakes like the YF-23. And the engines canted inward. So any scatter won't get out of the intake.

Image

Image

The back does not feature the same engine tip configuration as the F-22. But it will have saw toothed coweling on the back with saw toothed engine tips. Just like the F-35.

The fuselage was computer generated from the ground up with the right angles for stealth. The su 57 has planform alignment, a true blend wing design with podded engines which gives it less surface angling than the F-22. It has internal weapons.

The levcon setup gives the jet similar performance as a Euro canard except the levcon fits neatly flush with the wings. The levcon also allows the jet to have way smatter virticle stabilizers which lowers the RCS.

There is a reason that it was called the Raptorski when it first came out. Because it does look like a stealth aircraft.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 15 Jul 2018, 00:45
by project458
Did you just compare Russia to Iran ? Thats like comparing the so called "fat kid" you speak of to a wheelchair bond one ? :roll:

and whats this doom and gloom about the Russian aviation? I don't hear similar talk about the British, France, Germany or any other EU nation non of which has any active 5th gen fighter program ?

As for the Hunter UCAV, first flight late this year or early next year, but when it does take off all this talk of "Russia can't design stealthily shape" will quietly disappear, I suspect :D

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 15 Jul 2018, 01:06
by popcorn
Oil money pouring in... I really hope Putin changes his mind and keeps pouring billions and billions into this thing.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 15 Jul 2018, 12:46
by mixelflick
project458 wrote:Did you just compare Russia to Iran ? Thats like comparing the so called "fat kid" you speak of to a wheelchair bond one ? :roll:

and whats this doom and gloom about the Russian aviation? I don't hear similar talk about the British, France, Germany or any other EU nation non of which has any active 5th gen fighter program ?

As for the Hunter UCAV, first flight late this year or early next year, but when it does take off all this talk of "Russia can't design stealthily shape" will quietly disappear, I suspect :D


Because Russia makes so many dubious claims, the onus is on you to prove that this thing (and the SU-57) is ever going to be real. As in IN SERVICE. When PAK FA first flew in 2010, we heard IOC in 2013. Then 2014, 16 etc etc. It's 8 years later, and now they're telling us they'll be NO MASS PRODUCTION. As in nothing more than a small (12) handful of examples. Now you want us to believe this "hunter" thing is going to be ready for prime time too? Please...

Look man, I like Russian designs (and have said so here many times here). But to date, you have NO stealth aircraft in service. None. Zip. Zero. What you do have is Russian fanboys like you claiming all sorts of stuff "in development" that's going to blow the F-22 and 35 away, attract foreign buyers and conquer the world.

HERE'S WHAT A REAL, OPERATIONAL STEALTH AIRCRAFT LOOKS LIKE

The F-35 is a real aircraft that's IN SERVICE today. Not just in US service either. As we speak, F-35's are proliferating around the globe. They're landing in the U.S., the U.K., Japan, Australia, Italy, Denmark, Norway, The Netherlands, Turkey and South Korea. The Belgians and Finns are evaluating it, and there's talk of perhaps Singapore, India and the UAE evaluating the aircraft. Suppliers in all nine of the program's partner countries are producing F-35 components for all aircraft, not just those for their country. And in addition to the Fort Worth plant, there are two Final Assembly and Check Out (FACO) facilities outside the United States: one in Cameri, Italy, where the first jet was delivered in December 2015; and another in Nagoya, Japan, where the first jet was delivered in June 2017. But you just know the PAK FA is going to be in service soon, and you also know their "Hunter" drone is a real, VLO design that's going to erase our decades old lead in stealth technology.

What you don't know, is that I have a 7th gen design flying as we speak, and will be operational next week (see below).

See how easy that was??

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 15 Jul 2018, 18:02
by zerion
Yeah remember when they were deploying that unmanned tank to Syria and how swarms of them were going to overrun any army that got in their way? Well...

https://www.armyrecognition.com/july_20 ... syria.html

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 15 Jul 2018, 19:27
by mixelflick
zerion wrote:Yeah remember when they were deploying that unmanned tank to Syria and how swarms of them were going to overrun any army that got in their way? Well...

https://www.armyrecognition.com/july_20 ... syria.html


I'm not saying the SU-57 is complete junk. Indeed, I think it's a huge threat to our 4th gen platforms. However, it's not all that big of a jump over the SU-35. Why not just put its advanced engines, radar and weapons into those platforms? The bottom line though, is this..

Despite Russian proclamations to the contrary, there aren't going to be any meaningful number of them in service anytime soon. They are rapidly falling behind, and no amount of Russian fanboys is going to change that fact. I will await the SU-57's IOC (the real one), but I'm not holding my breath...

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 16 Jul 2018, 01:55
by project458
mixelflick wrote:
project458 wrote:Did you just compare Russia to Iran ? Thats like comparing the so called "fat kid" you speak of to a wheelchair bond one ? :roll:

and whats this doom and gloom about the Russian aviation? I don't hear similar talk about the British, France, Germany or any other EU nation non of which has any active 5th gen fighter program ?

As for the Hunter UCAV, first flight late this year or early next year, but when it does take off all this talk of "Russia can't design stealthily shape" will quietly disappear, I suspect :D


Because Russia makes so many dubious claims, the onus is on you to prove that this thing (and the SU-57) is ever going to be real. As in IN SERVICE. When PAK FA first flew in 2010, we heard IOC in 2013. Then 2014, 16 etc etc. It's 8 years later, and now they're telling us they'll be NO MASS PRODUCTION. As in nothing more than a small (12) handful of examples. Now you want us to believe this "hunter" thing is going to be ready for prime time too? Please...

Look man, I like Russian designs (and have said so here many times here). But to date, you have NO stealth aircraft in service. None. Zip. Zero. What you do have is Russian fanboys like you claiming all sorts of stuff "in development" that's going to blow the F-22 and 35 away, attract foreign buyers and conquer the world.

HERE'S WHAT A REAL, OPERATIONAL STEALTH AIRCRAFT LOOKS LIKE

The F-35 is a real aircraft that's IN SERVICE today. Not just in US service either. As we speak, F-35's are proliferating around the globe. They're landing in the U.S., the U.K., Japan, Australia, Italy, Denmark, Norway, The Netherlands, Turkey and South Korea. The Belgians and Finns are evaluating it, and there's talk of perhaps Singapore, India and the UAE evaluating the aircraft. Suppliers in all nine of the program's partner countries are producing F-35 components for all aircraft, not just those for their country. And in addition to the Fort Worth plant, there are two Final Assembly and Check Out (FACO) facilities outside the United States: one in Cameri, Italy, where the first jet was delivered in December 2015; and another in Nagoya, Japan, where the first jet was delivered in June 2017. But you just know the PAK FA is going to be in service soon, and you also know their "Hunter" drone is a real, VLO design that's going to erase our decades old lead in stealth technology.

What you don't know, is that I have a 7th gen design flying as we speak, and will be operational next week (see below).

See how easy that was??




That's not what he said, he said when its gets its final engines, then mass orders will start, the engine testing process will take about 3 years

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 16 Jul 2018, 06:04
by charlielima223
cobra321 wrote:
Come on. I don't usually defend Russian equipment but where does this exaggeration about the su 57 stop ?

Most of what has been said about the lack of stealth is just nonsense. All of these so called flaws in the design exist in other US stealth designs. First the intake. The intake does not show any more engine face than the YF-23 or X-32 design did. It does not have the same S duct setup as the F-22. But it does have offset intakes like the YF-23. And the engines canted inward. So any scatter won't get out of the intake.

The back does not feature the same engine tip configuration as the F-22. But it will have saw toothed coweling on the back with saw toothed engine tips. Just like the F-35.

The fuselage was computer generated from the ground up with the right angles for stealth. The su 57 has planform alignment, a true blend wing design with podded engines which gives it less surface angling than the F-22. It has internal weapons.

The levcon setup gives the jet similar performance as a Euro canard except the levcon fits neatly flush with the wings. The levcon also allows the jet to have way smatter virticle stabilizers which lowers the RCS.

There is a reason that it was called the Raptorski when it first came out. Because it does look like a stealth aircraft.


This has been discussed to great length to the point of adnauseum.

There are some pictures illustrating the radar return between F-35 and PAKFA

viewtopic.php?p=259972

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=21808&start=315

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=21808&start=1065

Image

While the PAKFA is the stealthiest aircraft the Russian military has ever developed compared to F-35, F-22, and even F-117; the PAKFA's stealthy attributes seem half-assed. While F-35, F-22, and F-117 were designed to be as stealthy as possible, PAKFA was designed to be "stealthy enough". Also their is a picture you can find on the interwebs clearing showing the engine face of PAKFA.

Image

More popular and recent images, the engine face is hidden by shadow. There have been no recent footage of images of the PAKFA up close with engine intake sufficient lighting. The PAKFA is supposed to be later designed with a inlet structure that is more curved and with a radar blocking structure. This would mean a redesign and further flight testing to see how such changes will effect performance. Until an actual picture emerges of such changes to the inlet design of the PAKFA, it will be assumed that the engine face is still and exposed feature. Comparing the inlet design of the PAKFA to the YF-23 is a little disingenuous (to me). The inlet design of the YF-23 appears to have a greater curvature than the PAKFA and was designed from the beginning to have a radar blocker.

Image

Image

Also the devil is indeed in the details. The conventional round shape frontal IRST, two protruding round IR nodes below the cockpit and above behind, canopy structure, manufacturing tolerances, shape of panels, quality of RAM, etc will impact its PAKFA's overall RCS.

Image

compared to the saw-toothed and angled shape panels of F-35 and F-22

Image

Image

Image

Having a smaller vertical tails doesn't seem to mean much in terms of RCS reduction. The F-22 and F-35 as well as J-20 have larger vertical tail structures. The Vertical tails on the J-20 are also all moving as well. Interesting are the V shaped tail of the YF-23. Those were all moving as well. Yet according to former test pilot Paul Metz, because of the size of the tails, this meant that they didn't not have to move much to generate the desired effect.

Image

Image

I'll make a SWAG here. Its obvious the large vertical tails on the F-22 provides a lot of control surface area. Because the vertical tail structure of the F-22 and F-35 are of a fixed position, this would mean that they create a more predictable reflective surface. The PAKFA on the other hand has smaller vertical tails yet to compensate for would could have been a smaller control surface, the PAKFA has an all moving vertical tails. This however could be more detrimental to its stealth characteristics as its all moving surface would create more unpredictable return signals. The LEVCONs on the PAKFA does offer an additional control surface but they are more for creating better airflow to intake inlets during maneuvers much like the F-15s intake ramps.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 16 Jul 2018, 06:20
by Corsair1963
As I've said over and over again. Don't be surprised if Russia acquires the FC-31.(i.e. J-31) Especially, if such articles turn out to be true. Why because Russia really has no choice.... :?


Yet, I would be happy to reconsider. If, somebody can come up with a plausible alternative???

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 16 Jul 2018, 09:41
by aaam
mixelflick wrote:
zerion wrote:Yeah remember when they were deploying that unmanned tank to Syria and how swarms of them were going to overrun any army that got in their way? Well...

https://www.armyrecognition.com/july_20 ... syria.html


I'm not saying the SU-57 is complete junk. Indeed, I think it's a huge threat to our 4th gen platforms. However, it's not all that big of a jump over the SU-35. Why not just put its advanced engines, radar and weapons into those platforms? The bottom line though, is this..

Despite Russian proclamations to the contrary, there aren't going to be any meaningful number of them in service anytime soon. They are rapidly falling behind, and no amount of Russian fanboys is going to change that fact. I will await the SU-57's IOC (the real one), but I'm not holding my breath...


This I think is an insightful key point. As has been acknowledged by both the West and Russia, the Flanker just keeps getting better and better. Witness the SU-35. The point is, aside from stealth what is that the SU-57 can do so much better than the SU-35 can today or with already announced improvements that can justify its no doubt much higher cost? If the stealth advance over teh Flanker turns out to be not as dramatic as hoped, it's a much harder case to make to spend all that money and effort.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 16 Jul 2018, 09:53
by citanon
cobra321 wrote:
Most of what has been said about the lack of stealth is just nonsense. All of these so called flaws in the design exist in other US stealth designs. First the intake. The intake does not show any more engine face than the YF-23 or X-32 design did. It does not have the same S duct setup as the F-22. But it does have offset intakes like the YF-23. And the engines canted inward. So any scatter won't get out of the intake.

Image

Image

The back does not feature the same engine tip configuration as the F-22. But it will have saw toothed coweling on the back with saw toothed engine tips. Just like the F-35.

The fuselage was computer generated from the ground up with the right angles for stealth. The su 57 has planform alignment, a true blend wing design with podded engines which gives it less surface angling than the F-22. It has internal weapons.

The levcon setup gives the jet similar performance as a Euro canard except the levcon fits neatly flush with the wings. The levcon also allows the jet to have way smatter virticle stabilizers which lowers the RCS.

There is a reason that it was called the Raptorski when it first came out. Because it does look like a stealth aircraft.


The stealthiness of aircraft depends on hitting very high tolerances, creating perfect lines and surfaces and ironing out every little discontinuity in the surface em properties.

It doesn't matter how good your shape looks in a computer. The computer calculations assume that you have a perfect shape as designed with perfect em continuity on the skin. If you can't manufacture it close enough to its ideal specs it's not going to be stealthy.

Then there's the other huge glaring issue on the Su-57: the underside shaping is incomplete. The engine housing looks straight from the su-27 complete with the louvers at the front. That's going to look beautiful to IADS, which are expected to be the greatest danger to modern fighters.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 16 Jul 2018, 13:57
by mixelflick
[/quote]

That's not what he said, he said when its gets its final engines, then mass orders will start, the engine testing process will take about 3 years[/quote]

OK.... but "when" is a big question mark, and past proclamations of a 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016 etc IOC have proven to be false. Now we're told there's no need to speed mass development, and only a dozen examples will be ordered. At this point, it's kind of like the little boy who cried wolf.The Russians have lost all credibility..

India pulled out for a reason. Several, actually. The most onerous among them though that the aircraft wasn't stealthy enough, which is going to be a real downer given their stated strategy is closing to the merge with US stealth aircraft. None of us here have inside info on the SU-57, but the Indians did. They fact they bolted says a LOT IMO...

The new engines are going to take time (a lot of time) and likely won't be ready for at least another 5 years (and that's being charitable). Even then, its stealth isn't likely to be VLO, and here again you have a situation where the SU-57 isn't much more capable than the SU-35. Why not just add the SU-57's new engines and avionics to the SU-35? Would seem to make a lot more sense financially.

i suppose a silver bullet force is still a possibility, but it's going to be real small and hella expensive. And by that time. the US 6th gen designs will be taking to the air. As such, nothing can change this fact: They are falling further and further behind..

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 16 Jul 2018, 14:47
by icemaverick
Corsair1963 wrote:As I've said over and over again. Don't be surprised if Russia acquires the FC-31.(i.e. J-31) Especially, if such articles turn out to be true. Why because Russia really has no choice.... :?


Yet, I would be happy to reconsider. If, somebody can come up with a plausible alternative???


The alternative would be to keep buying various super-duper Flanker variants and claiming that they are better than everything else. Russia isn’t really trying to match the US in terms of military strength. Even if they wanted to, they don’t have the money/resources/industrial capacity. They have a massive nuclear deterrent and they are still the most powerful country in their own neighborhood. For all Russia’s posturing on the global stage, they have a GDP smaller than that of Italy.

For national pride alone, there is no way Russia will buy Chinese jets.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 16 Jul 2018, 14:59
by icemaverick
project458 wrote:and whats this doom and gloom about the Russian aviation? I don't hear similar talk about the British, France, Germany or any other EU nation non of which has any active 5th gen fighter program ?


Take a look at the thread about Germany’s Eurofighter replacement. The general consensus is that European industry (France and Germany) is unlikely to be able to produce an aircraft that can match the F-35. Even if they did, it would be very late to the party.

As for the Hunter UCAV, first flight late this year or early next year, but when it does take off all this talk of "Russia can't design stealthily shape" will quietly disappear, I suspect :D


Why would anyone be impressed if Russia builds a stealthy looking UCAV prototype? The US has several flying UCAVs. Dassault’s Neuron’s first flight was in 2012. BAE’s Taranis first took flight in 2013. Israel has reportedly been working on a stealthy UCAV. China already has a bird codenamed “Stealth Sword” that is flying.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 16 Jul 2018, 15:16
by f4u7_corsair
icemaverick wrote:
project458 wrote:and whats this doom and gloom about the Russian aviation? I don't hear similar talk about the British, France, Germany or any other EU nation non of which has any active 5th gen fighter program ?


Take a look at the thread about Germany’s Eurofighter replacement. The general consensus is that European industry (France and Germany) is unlikely to be able to produce an aircraft that can match the F-35. Even if they did, it would be very late to the party.

Well you're the ones late to the party.. France/Germany (FCAS, FR led) and UK (Tempest, UK alone for now) all have active, ongoing 5/6th generation projects going on.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 16 Jul 2018, 18:46
by icemaverick
f4u7_corsair wrote:
icemaverick wrote:
project458 wrote:and whats this doom and gloom about the Russian aviation? I don't hear similar talk about the British, France, Germany or any other EU nation non of which has any active 5th gen fighter program ?


Take a look at the thread about Germany’s Eurofighter replacement. The general consensus is that European industry (France and Germany) is unlikely to be able to produce an aircraft that can match the F-35. Even if they did, it would be very late to the party.

Well you're the ones late to the party.. France/Germany (FCAS, FR led) and UK (Tempest, UK alone for now) all have active, ongoing 5/6th generation projects going on.


And currently these programs are nothing more than some computer generated renderings of futuristic looking aircraft. It’s easy to claim that you’re going to develop a fighter jet. It’s much harder to turn that idea into serially produced operational fighter aircraft.

Turkey, Korea, Japan and India all have “active 5th/6th generation projects going on” as well. How many of these advanced fighters will be built by 2035?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 16 Jul 2018, 20:57
by project458
icemaverick wrote:
project458 wrote:and whats this doom and gloom about the Russian aviation? I don't hear similar talk about the British, France, Germany or any other EU nation non of which has any active 5th gen fighter program ?


Take a look at the thread about Germany’s Eurofighter replacement. The general consensus is that European industry (France and Germany) is unlikely to be able to produce an aircraft that can match the F-35. Even if they did, it would be very late to the party.

As for the Hunter UCAV, first flight late this year or early next year, but when it does take off all this talk of "Russia can't design stealthily shape" will quietly disappear, I suspect :D


Why would anyone be impressed if Russia builds a stealthy looking UCAV prototype? The US has several flying UCAVs. Dassault’s Neuron’s first flight was in 2012. BAE’s Taranis first took flight in 2013. Israel has reportedly been working on a stealthy UCAV. China already has a bird codenamed “Stealth Sword” that is flying.



Nether of these will ever enter production, Unlike Hunter

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 16 Jul 2018, 20:58
by cobra321
Corsair1963 wrote:As I've said over and over again. Don't be surprised if Russia acquires the FC-31.(i.e. J-31) Especially, if such articles turn out to be true. Why because Russia really has no choice.... :?


Yet, I would be happy to reconsider. If, somebody can come up with a plausible alternative???


This is the exact kind of hyperbolic garbage that I am talking about. No. The su 57 is NOT cancelled and is NOT a failure. Here is the recent statements in context. From Military Watch. Who are NOT pro Russia. This stuff about the su 57 really separates the yahoos from the serious analysts.

From Military Watch magazine that references the Vladimir Gutenev statement.

http://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/70750

Quoted from the article:

- The Su-57 program is very much a sixth generation air superiority fighter program, one which at early stages can serve as a high end fifth generation aircraft comparable to the American Raptor - as in the case of the 12 initial production production variants ordered by the Air Force, but ultimately the Russian military began the program with a greater end in mind.

-The end goal of the Su-57 is to be able to go head to head with the American sixth generation air superiority fighter currently being developed to replace the Raptor under the F/A-XX next generation air dominance fighter.

-Further enhancements to electronic warfare capabilities and radar jamming, stealth, next generation engines, the use of hypersonic and energy weapons and the deployment of defensive missile blinding lasers are among the systems which a completed sixth generation variant of the Su-57 is likely to deploy.

-Unlike the Su-57, the F-22 is a purely fifth generation fighter and has seen little invested in its modernization.

-Russia doesn’t need a massive Su-57 fifth generation fleet to protect itself or maintain parity with the Western Bloc at present, but it will in the not too distant future have considerable need for a sixth generation air superiority fighter capable of matching the upcoming American platform.

The article also says this:

Russia's air defense network and its heavily upgraded ‘4++’ generation fighter fleet, backed up by advanced electronic warfare technologies which are reportedly heavily relied on to compensate for a small fleet of stealth aircraft, are more than enough to retain sufficient parity with the Western Bloc that they will be cautious about challenging the Russian fleet openly - in Syria, Eastern Europe, the Pacific or elsewhere.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 16 Jul 2018, 21:01
by XanderCrews
project458 wrote:

That's not what he said, he said when its gets its final engines, then mass orders will start, the engine testing process will take about 3 years



That's absolutely backwards if true, and it's going to take longer than 3 years. Well it would take longer than 3 years in the west. Russia will have no issue rushing it into service and letting them just crash

project458 wrote:Nether of these will ever enter production, Unlike Hunter



I would save the talk until it actually enters production. Just because you drink the koolaid doesn't mean we are obligated to.

I dont know how old you are but Russia lol its like the 90s again where they roll out all these "fearsome" fighters that end up being one offs, prototypes, concept generators. Complete with engines borrowed off older designs in the hope some sucker is going to buy some. And then they get a nibble, make about a dozen or two dozen and then it repeats itself.

This is embarrassing. India dropped them like a hot rock, and they created an airplane even they decided wasn't worth buying after wasting who knows how much money, and 8 years they can never get back.



So yeah this is bad. Russia has yet to produce in any significant number, any aircraft that dont have their original with the USSR.

Can't wait to see what flash in the pan uber flanker rises from the Su-57 ashes this time!

So exciting! Sure Russia's attempt at being a "big boy" resulted in them going back to diapers after a giant mess, but falling utterly short on a 5th generation fighter is no big deal.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 16 Jul 2018, 21:06
by juretrn
XanderCrews wrote:That's absolutely backwards if true, and it's going to take longer than 3 years. Well it would take longer than 3 years in the west. Russia will have no issue rushing it into service and letting them just crash

Nah, they won't crash, they'll be just replacing the engines every 100 flight hours, like they did for the MiG-29.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 16 Jul 2018, 21:17
by XanderCrews
juretrn wrote:
XanderCrews wrote:That's absolutely backwards if true, and it's going to take longer than 3 years. Well it would take longer than 3 years in the west. Russia will have no issue rushing it into service and letting them just crash

Nah, they won't crash, they'll be just replacing the engines every 100 flight hours, like they did for the MiG-29.



Its both really. Mig-29s crash plenty too.

Hell they've already one pak fa catch fire. "F-35 caught fire too" true indeed. But compare the numbers of production of aircraft vs cooked aircraft


Jesus only on planet Russia can we go from "su-57 is F-22" to "so what if it its canceled?! OMFG we have a stealth UAV!! That will be in production someday!"

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 16 Jul 2018, 21:18
by XanderCrews
cobra321 wrote:
Come on. I don't usually defend Russian equipment but where does this exaggeration about the su 57 stop ?

Most of what has been said about the lack of stealth is just nonsense. All of these so called flaws in the design exist in other US stealth designs. First the intake. The intake does not show any more engine face than the YF-23 or X-32 design did. It does not have the same S duct setup as the F-22. But it does have offset intakes like the YF-23. And the engines canted inward. So any scatter won't get out of the intake.

Image

Image

The back does not feature the same engine tip configuration as the F-22. But it will have saw toothed coweling on the back with saw toothed engine tips. Just like the F-35.

The fuselage was computer generated from the ground up with the right angles for stealth. The su 57 has planform alignment, a true blend wing design with podded engines which gives it less surface angling than the F-22. It has internal weapons.

The levcon setup gives the jet similar performance as a Euro canard except the levcon fits neatly flush with the wings. The levcon also allows the jet to have way smatter virticle stabilizers which lowers the RCS.

There is a reason that it was called the Raptorski when it first came out. Because it does look like a stealth aircraft.



Uh what?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 16 Jul 2018, 22:19
by talkitron
icemaverick wrote:Turkey, Korea, Japan and India all have “active 5th/6th generation projects going on” as well. How many of these advanced fighters will be built by 2035?


Korea and Turkey have particular fighters under active development and will likely succeed. India and Japan have more ambitious dreams but no concrete programs in place. Defense production in India is a disaster on all fronts.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 17 Jul 2018, 00:20
by cobra321
charlielima223 wrote:
cobra321 wrote:
Come on. I don't usually defend Russian equipment but where does this exaggeration about the su 57 stop ?

Most of whar virticle stabilizers which lowers the RCS.

There is a reason that it was called the Raptorski when it first came out. Because it does look like a stealth aircraft.


This has been discussed to great length to the point of adnauseum.


While the PAKFA is the stealthiest aircraft the Russian military has ever developed compared to F-35, F-22, and even F-117; the PAKFA's stealthy attributes seem half-assed. ps.



First off , your RCS charts are just assumptions made by armatures with an axe to grind. These jets haven't been put side by side and tested like you are implying. So far all we have seen is prototypes. We cant judge production aircraft against prototypes. I remember the big thing was that the engines were not painted and rammed on the back. But they are now. Yet that was used as a knock against the stealth for a long time.

2nd, the only reason why the su 57 exists, is to counter the stealth advantage of the US fleet. Its basic military doctrine. It said right in the tender issued and then carried over from the Ussr to Russia, for the RCS to match that of the F-22. The su 57 is not a conspiracy. It is not a fake stealth aircraft. If the jet did not meet the stealth requirement, it would have stayed in development until it did. They didn't just give up half way through. That would be like Stalin making the atom bomb out of TNT and calling it good.

The most distinctive feature of 5th gen aircraft is the stealth. The most distinctive feature of the su 57 is the stealth. Yes. The su 57 isn't that much different from the su 35. Russia didn't need a new jet. Which proves that the only reason that the su 57 was built was for the stealth.

You once again, posted the one famous pic that shows the engine fan through the intake. That pic gives the illusion that you are looking straight at the aircraft. You are not. There are hundreds of pics that show no engine face. Especially the ones that really are head on. This setup is nothing remotely close to the su 27 setup yet ppl who havn't had a close look, really think that.

Image

Not only are the intakes below and offset, the engines are also canted inward. This puts the engine face at a slight angle which helps contain the scatter. Look at the red box in this pic. Now look at the engine face.

Image

Image

There's also the X-32. The idea that there has to be zero engine face to qualify as stealth is just not true.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 17 Jul 2018, 00:31
by cobra321
What was said about the su 57 this week on the state of the program has been mostly hyperbole and misquotes and mistranslations. Especially that Business Insider hit piece. That contained so much wrong information that its hard to believe that it got past the editorial board.

We have an article from Military Watch magazine (non partisan, not pro or anti Russia) that references the Vladimir Gutenev statement and obviously no. The su 57 is not cancelled or failed. There is something about the su 57 that riles people up and makes them lose their judgement. The su 57 was just recently named, featured in the Victory day parade and put into production. Its not going anywhere.

From the article:

- The Su-57 program is very much a sixth generation air superiority fighter program, one which at early stages can serve as a fifth generation aircraft comparable to the American Raptor - as in the case of the 12 initial production production variants ordered by the Air Force, but ultimately the Russian military began the program with a greater end in mind.

-The end goal of the Su-57 is to be able to go head to head with the American sixth generation air superiority fighter currently being developed to replace the Raptor under the F/A-XX next generation air dominance fighter.

-Further enhancements to electronic warfare capabilities and radar jamming, stealth, next generation engines, the use of hypersonic and energy weapons and the deployment of defensive missile blinding lasers are among the systems which a completed sixth generation variant of the Su-57 is likely to deploy.

-Unlike the Su-57, the F-22 is a purely fifth generation fighter and has seen little invested in its modernization.

-Russia doesn’t need a massive Su-57 fifth generation fleet to protect itself or maintain parity with the Western Bloc at present, but it will in the not too distant future have considerable need for a sixth generation air superiority fighter capable of matching the upcoming American platform.

-Russia's air defense network and its heavily upgraded ‘4++’ generation fighter fleet, backed up by advanced electronic warfare technologies which are reportedly heavily relied on to compensate for a small 5th gen fleet, are more than enough to retain sufficient parity with the Western Bloc. 4th gen aircraft still make up the backbone of the US fleet. The F-35 still has some years to work the bugs out. This gives Russia time to heavily upgrade the su 57 and to mass produce it as such.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 17 Jul 2018, 00:32
by fbw
Ok KGB,
Time to stop with the YF-23/Su-57 comparisons. I mean, isn’t it enough that you ruined key pubs thread on the Su-57 with your “theories”. Take a break.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 17 Jul 2018, 02:47
by Corsair1963
cobra321 wrote:What was said about the su 57 this week on the state of the program has been mostly hyperbole and misquotes and mistranslations. Especially that Business Insider piece.

We have an article from Military Watch magazine (non partisan, not pro or anti Russia) that references the Vladimir Gutenev statement and obviously no. The su 57 is not cancelled or anything or failed.

From the article:

- The Su-57 program is very much a sixth generation air superiority fighter program, one which at early stages can serve as a high end fifth generation aircraft comparable to the American Raptor - as in the case of the 12 initial production production variants ordered by the Air Force, but ultimately the Russian military began the program with a greater end in mind.

-The end goal of the Su-57 is to be able to go head to head with the American sixth generation air superiority fighter currently being developed to replace the Raptor under the F/A-XX next generation air dominance fighter.

-Further enhancements to electronic warfare capabilities and radar jamming, stealth, next generation engines, the use of hypersonic and energy weapons and the deployment of defensive missile blinding lasers are among the systems which a completed sixth generation variant of the Su-57 is likely to deploy.

-Unlike the Su-57, the F-22 is a purely fifth generation fighter and has seen little invested in its modernization.

-Russia doesn’t need a massive Su-57 fifth generation fleet to protect itself or maintain parity with the Western Bloc at present, but it will in the not too distant future have considerable need for a sixth generation air superiority fighter capable of matching the upcoming American platform.

-Russia's air defense network and its heavily upgraded ‘4++’ generation fighter fleet, backed up by advanced electronic warfare technologies which are reportedly heavily relied on to compensate for a small 5th gen fleet, are more than enough to retain sufficient parity with the Western Bloc. 4th gen aircraft still make up the backbone of the US fleet. The F-35 still has some years to work the bugs out. This gives Russia time to heavily upgrade the su 57 and to mass produce it as such.


LOL Don't expect anybody here to believe your spin.....(i.e. "propaganda") :doh:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 17 Jul 2018, 03:18
by icemaverick
cobra321 wrote:From the article:

- The Su-57 program is very much a sixth generation air superiority fighter program, one which at early stages can serve as a high end fifth generation aircraft comparable to the American Raptor - as in the case of the 12 initial production production variants ordered by the Air Force, but ultimately the Russian military began the program with a greater end in mind.


And I'm sure the person who said that is obviously very objective and in no way putting any spin on it :roll:

-The end goal of the Su-57 is to be able to go head to head with the American sixth generation air superiority fighter currently being developed to replace the Raptor under the F/A-XX next generation air dominance fighter.


Those are some bold claims. Very impressive considering this is a jet being built on a fraction of the budget of its would-be American adversaries. Just for reference United Aircraft Corporation, logged revenues of less than $7 billion in 2016. By comparison Lockheed Martin had $51 billion, Boeing had $93 billion.

-Further enhancements to electronic warfare capabilities and radar jamming, stealth, next generation engines, the use of hypersonic and energy weapons and the deployment of defensive missile blinding lasers are among the systems which a completed sixth generation variant of the Su-57 is likely to deploy.

-Unlike the Su-57, the F-22 is a purely fifth generation fighter and has seen little invested in its modernization.


The difference is that the F-22 is actually in service and has been in service since 2005. There are only plans to buy 12 Su-57s and it first flew in 2010. There are orders for 2,000+ F-35s from multiple countries whereas Russia's only partner in the Su-57 has bolted citing poor performance.

-Russia doesn’t need a massive Su-57 fifth generation fleet to protect itself or maintain parity with the Western Bloc at present, but it will in the not too distant future have considerable need for a sixth generation air superiority fighter capable of matching the upcoming American platform.


-Russia's air defense network and its heavily upgraded ‘4++’ generation fighter fleet, backed up by advanced electronic warfare technologies which are reportedly heavily relied on to compensate for a small 5th gen fleet, are more than enough to retain sufficient parity with the Western Bloc. 4th gen aircraft still make up the backbone of the US fleet. The F-35 still has some years to work the bugs out. This gives Russia time to heavily upgrade the su 57 and to mass produce it as such.


More claims from someone who has a vested interest in making them....

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 17 Jul 2018, 06:30
by juretrn
Not the "Su-57 = YF-23" bullshit again. It's stupid, really. The only evidence to that is someone drawing boxes on planes and speculative (i.e. completely made up) plane layouts. What we have seen from Sukhoi school of " stels" - as the Russians call it - lacks refinement compared to F-22 or F-35, and is barely any better (if) than Eurocanards. LM could definitely school them on the topic of stealth.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 17 Jul 2018, 09:54
by citanon
Don't worry. By the time the US 6th gen actually arrives the Su-57 will be rebranded the Su-67, and re-cast as the beginnings of the Russian 7th gen program. :D

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 17 Jul 2018, 10:18
by Corsair1963
citanon wrote:Don't worry. By the time the US 6th gen actually arrives the Su-57 will be rebranded the Su-67, and re-cast as the beginnings of the Russian 7th gen program. :D




LOL :lmao:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 17 Jul 2018, 15:06
by vilters
The sooner they melt it down, the sooner they can re-start.

But with "what"?
They still don't have the engines, the avionix, nothing.

All they have is vaporware, corruption and Wodka. :P

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 17 Jul 2018, 15:55
by mk82
cobra321 wrote:What was said about the su 57 this week on the state of the program has been mostly hyperbole and misquotes and mistranslations. Especially that Business Insider hit piece. That contained so much wrong information that its hard to believe that it got past the editorial board.

We have an article from Military Watch magazine (non partisan, not pro or anti Russia) that references the Vladimir Gutenev statement and obviously no. The su 57 is not cancelled or failed. There is something about the su 57 that riles people up and makes them lose their judgement. The su 57 was just recently named, featured in the Victory day parade and put into production. Its not going anywhere.

From the article:

- The Su-57 program is very much a sixth generation air superiority fighter program, one which at early stages can serve as a fifth generation aircraft comparable to the American Raptor - as in the case of the 12 initial production production variants ordered by the Air Force, but ultimately the Russian military began the program with a greater end in mind.

-The end goal of the Su-57 is to be able to go head to head with the American sixth generation air superiority fighter currently being developed to replace the Raptor under the F/A-XX next generation air dominance fighter.

-Further enhancements to electronic warfare capabilities and radar jamming, stealth, next generation engines, the use of hypersonic and energy weapons and the deployment of defensive missile blinding lasers are among the systems which a completed sixth generation variant of the Su-57 is likely to deploy.

-Unlike the Su-57, the F-22 is a purely fifth generation fighter and has seen little invested in its modernization.

-Russia doesn’t need a massive Su-57 fifth generation fleet to protect itself or maintain parity with the Western Bloc at present, but it will in the not too distant future have considerable need for a sixth generation air superiority fighter capable of matching the upcoming American platform.

-Russia's air defense network and its heavily upgraded ‘4++’ generation fighter fleet, backed up by advanced electronic warfare technologies which are reportedly heavily relied on to compensate for a small 5th gen fleet, are more than enough to retain sufficient parity with the Western Bloc. 4th gen aircraft still make up the backbone of the US fleet. The F-35 still has some years to work the bugs out. This gives Russia time to heavily upgrade the su 57 and to mass produce it as such.


- Very slow production that is lol!

- Wait! So Sukhoi can’t get their 5th generation sh*t together so they will aim for 6th generation where they will f*ck it up even more LOL! So when is this 6th gen SU 57 entering service....2100? Can’t even get the basics right.....

Pogoysan played the Russian government for fools! He would have been sent to the Gulags in the old days.

- Enhancing the SU 57 “stealth” lol! Can’t polish up fundamental design shortcomings and not good enough build quality aka a turd. Hypersonic weapons....energy weapons for the SU 57.....Article 30 engines in actual production/operational SU 57s........please wake me up when these things happen...yawn. Oh yeah, the Amerikanski are developing DIRCM systems too for their latest fighters.

- Unlike the SU 57, the F22 is an operational (for real operational that is) and combat proven platform (no 2 day Mickey Mouse deployments) that will kick the SU 57’s butt all day.....everyday. That’s all! Oh yeah, the F22 is being upgraded over time....do keep up

- Do you know what the Russian Air defence network and “heavily upgraded” Gen 4++ fighters are.....just targets.....expensive targets that is against a peer adversary Force with a larger Gen 5 Force. Sure Russia’s small Gen 5 (wannabe) Force will be more survivable but they wouldn’t win the Air war. Think Luffwaffe....at the end of World War II.....with small and useless numbers of Wunderwaffe platforms. History repeating itself. Sure the backbone of the US fleet currently are still 4th Gen platforms but increasing numbers of these 4th Gen platforms will be replaced by 5th gen platforms over time (it is already happening now). Meanwhile the Russian Air Force over the same time period are still stuck with mainly Gen 4++ platforms (aka targets) with a very small silver bullet force of Gen 5 (wannabe) platform. Great.....the Russian Air Force....the Air Force you have.....not the Air Force you WANT....big difference there.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 17 Jul 2018, 15:56
by mk82
vilters wrote:The sooner they melt it down, the sooner they can re-start.

But with "what"?
They still don't have the engines, the avionix, nothing.

All they have is vaporware, corruption and Wodka. :P


Word!

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 17 Jul 2018, 18:43
by project458
citanon wrote:Don't worry. By the time the US 6th gen actually arrives the Su-57 will be rebranded the Su-67, and re-cast as the beginnings of the Russian 7th gen program. :D



No, what will happen is that, it will cost 2 trillion ( borrowed Chinese money) and not deliver even 50 % on its promises, Russia least choose to live within their means.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 17 Jul 2018, 19:06
by botsing
project458 wrote: No, what will happen is that, it will cost 2 trillion ( borrowed Chinese money) and not deliver even 50 % on its promises, Russia least choose to live within their means.

Use whatever excuse you can think off to supply your cognitive dissonance pal, you seem to need it badly.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 17 Jul 2018, 21:06
by icemaverick
project458 wrote:
citanon wrote:Don't worry. By the time the US 6th gen actually arrives the Su-57 will be rebranded the Su-67, and re-cast as the beginnings of the Russian 7th gen program. :D



No, what will happen is that, it will cost 2 trillion ( borrowed Chinese money) and not deliver even 50 % on its promises, Russia least choose to live within their means.


Last I checked, the US Government can practically borrow money for free while Russian bonds are rated just above junk. Russia chooses to live within its meager means and thus produces meager aircraft.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 02:16
by project458
icemaverick wrote:
project458 wrote:
citanon wrote:Don't worry. By the time the US 6th gen actually arrives the Su-57 will be rebranded the Su-67, and re-cast as the beginnings of the Russian 7th gen program. :D



No, what will happen is that, it will cost 2 trillion ( borrowed Chinese money) and not deliver even 50 % on its promises, Russia least choose to live within their means.


Last I checked, the US Government can practically borrow money for free while Russian bonds are rated just above junk. Russia chooses to live within its meager means and thus produces meager aircraft.



haha and you think that can continue forever"? All good things come to end. and speaking of finances, Russia just had its first budget surplus for the first time in years, Meanwhile the US will rack up 1 trillion more debt by years end.


https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-Gene ... -Deal.html

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 05:37
by icemaverick
project458 wrote:haha and you think that can continue forever"? All good things come to end. and speaking of finances, Russia just had its first budget surplus for the first time in years, Meanwhile the US will rack up 1 trillion more debt by years end.


https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-Gene ... -Deal.html


Great. It doesn’t change the fact that Russia has a smaller GDP than Italy. It doesn’t change the fact that Russia’s entire aircraft industry raked in less than $7 billion in revenue. By comparison, Netflix takes in more in revenue and profits. It doesn’t change the fact that Russia is completely dependent on oil. It doesn’t change the fact that the F-35 has literally thousands of firm orders with plenty more yet to come. Meanwhile, India has bolted on the Su-57 while Russia has only committed to 12.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 06:02
by cobra321
LOL Don't expect anybody here to believe your spin.....(i.e. "propaganda")

Wait a minute. The whole buzz about the su 57 and the nonsense about it being cancelled is claimed to have been said by the Russians themselves. Military Watch magazine is not spinning anything. It is just reporting what the Russians really meant and it correctly translated the words. Russia has enough legit problems that we don't have to make things up to jeer them with.

There are only plans to buy 12 Su-57s and it first flew in 2010. Russia's only partner in the Su-57 has bolted citing poor performance.

They are going to MFG 12 of this variant. That was the plan all along anyway. And they are going to build a more advanced variant and that's the one that will get mass produced. And they will call it a 6th gen. You can make fun of them for that but at least then, you are taking them at their word and not yours or Business Insiders. Russia praised the jet and said it was one of the best in the world. How people took that to mean the su 57 is cancelled, I will never know.

The gripes from India were by anonymous IAF officials that went straight to the western defense media. This is the same IAF that loves their su 30 mki's. Nothing negative was said about the performance in an official capacity. No IAF officials had any access to classified material or anything on the su 57. The Indian defense dept was dealing on the project. They had the details. Not the IAF. There was probably brown envelopes being handed out at the Malabar exercises to jeer the su 57. The development idea got bogged down in red tape and India has told Russia that they will consider buying it.


Wait! So Sukhoi can’t get their 5th generation sh*t together so they will aim for 6th generation where they will f*ck it up even more LOL! So when is this 6th gen SU 57 entering service....2100? Can’t even get the basics right.....


The F-22 Raptor won the build competition in 1991 and the jet entered service in 2005 (14) Sukhoi won the build competition in 2002 and the jet will enter service in 2018 (16 years) So for all the huffing and puffing about how long the su 57 has taken, it only took 2 years longer than the F-22 Raptor. And in that time, Russia built the su 37 Berkut demonstrator and the MIg 1.44 that went to China and turned into the J-20. Hence why the J-20 was built so fast. There was no China competition. Once India inked the FGFA deal in 07, China knew that it couldn't partner for the su 57. So it went full bore on the J-20 in 08.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 06:31
by cobra321
Business Insider seems to have a shrieking fruitcake of a writer there who's been pumping out some cringe worthy nonsense on the su 57. Look at this.
Russia's "fifth-generation," "combat-tested," "stealth" fighter jet has a lot of dubious claims made about it, but recent close-up photography of the plane from Russia's Victory Day parade on May 9 reveals it's just not a stealth jet. Business Insider asked a senior scientist working on stealth aircraft how to evaluate the plane's stealth, and the results were not good.
Take a look at the pictures below and see if you can spot what's wrong:


^Yeah sure. I bet the average Business Insider reader is more proficient at stealth than Sukhoi design bureau engineers. Anyway lets see what this senior scientist came up with..

Image

Image

:D Fail. Epic fail. Dear senior stealth scientist. The reason that the verticals aren't smooth with the fuselage, is because the vertical stabilizers on the su 57 are all-moving and they rotate on a center axis. This way , they serve as an air brake which saves weight and moving parts. And they are way smaller, way smaller than the F-22 or F-35 which makes for a lower RCS.

This is simply unacceptable. Business Insider is not a serious publication for these matters and should be treated as such. Yet the National Intrest sited it also.
Image
This just goes to show the absolute nonsense and sophistry that's been going around about the su 57 in the media. There is something about the su 57 that causes people to lose all their common sense. The su 35 gets respected by the industry. But when the su 57 comes up , its just lunacy. And we seen more of it last week with this "cancelled" and "failed" rumors.

So many people really believe all this trash. They really believe that the su 57 is a hunk of junk. From articles like that. Tyler Rogoway, an otherwise good industry guy, also has a few cringe pieces about it. Yet all through this, not one US or NATO official has said anything about Russia's su 57 not being stealth. The airforce wanted to restart the F-22 line for a reason.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 07:38
by Corsair1963
Sorry, the PAK-FA (Su-57) is really nothing more than a Semi-Stealthy Flanker. Which, won't be ready for a good decade and pricey at that....($100 Million+)


So, it's hardly surprising that India dropped from the program. While, the Russia Government is having serious second thoughts. Because they know such a program isn't viable.... (No Export Orders i.e. not profitable!)

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 11:17
by juretrn
Ah, I see.
It's not allowed to criticize the Su-57 because Sukhoi engineers know their stuff.
But everyone knows better than LM engineers. Makes sense!

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 16:06
by SpudmanWP
lrrpf52 wrote:The most defining aspect of 5th Gen aircraft is sensor fusion and networked sensor fusion


I would put VLO at the top of the list (with the included internal bays to achieve it) since everything else in the list can be added to an existing 4th gen fighter (and some have to a degree like Gripen, Rafale, and Eurofighter).

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 18:32
by icemaverick
cobra321 wrote:Wait a minute. The whole buzz about the su 57 and the nonsense about it being cancelled is claimed to have been said by the Russians themselves. Military Watch magazine is not spinning anything. It is just reporting what the Russians really meant and it correctly translated the words. Russia has enough legit problems that we don't have to make things up to jeer them with.


At the end of the day, actions speak louder than words. Russians will claim that it's a super-duper-mega performer but they have only committed to 12 while they continue to crank out Su-35s. That would be like the USAF continuing to place large orders of upgraded F-16s and F-15s instead of buying the F-35.

They are going to MFG 12 of this variant. That was the plan all along anyway.


Really? That was the plan all along? So way back in 2002, they said they were going to build a tiny batch of "interim" fighters and then produce an entirely different version that's a generational leap over that one? That makes no sense.

And they are going to build a more advanced variant and that's the one that will get mass produced. And they will call it a 6th gen. You can make fun of them for that but at least then, you are taking them at their word and not yours or Business Insiders.


People claim all sorts of things. Often times they are complete BS. Just take this "sixth generation" claim for example. Saying that one aircraft is a generational leap over another means that there would have to be a huge difference in level of technology. But in this case, the Russians will still be using the same basic airframe and the only major change will be the engines. By this logic an F-15 or F-16 with upgraded radars, avionics and engines are a generational leap. No one is saying that the most upgraded F-15 or F-16 is a "fifth generation."

The gripes from India were by anonymous IAF officials that went straight to the western defense media. This is the same IAF that loves their su 30 mki's. Nothing negative was said about the performance in an official capacity. No IAF officials had any access to classified material or anything on the su 57. The Indian defense dept was dealing on the project. They had the details. Not the IAF. There was probably brown envelopes being handed out at the Malabar exercises to jeer the su 57. The development idea got bogged down in red tape and India has told Russia that they will consider buying it.


Actions speak louder than words. India has officially withdrawn from the Sukhoi/HAL Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) project. That doesn't seem like the action of a satisfied partner. It's not just the Western media reporting this. Here's a link to an article from RT: https://www.rt.com/news/427263-russia-i ... odi-putin/


"The nadir has been India's public decision just last month to exit the Sukhoi/HAL Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) project, mooted for over a decade. New Delhi is apparently dissatisfied with both the timelines and the characteristics of what would have been a groundbreaking, jointly produced jet, and a new model for Russia's post-Soviet aerospace industry."


Sure they will "consider buying it" but they have officially withdrawn from the project. As for loving their Su-30MKIs, it's interesting that India chose to shell out a whole bunch of money for the far more expensive Rafale. Now why might that be? If the Su-30MKI is so great, why are the Indians willing to spend so much money on another 4+ generation jet?

The F-22 Raptor won the build competition in 1991 and the jet entered service in 2005 (14) Sukhoi won the build competition in 2002 and the jet will enter service in 2018 (16 years)


But by your own admission, this jet that will enter service is only an interim jet. It's not the final version.

So for all the huffing and puffing about how long the su 57 has taken, it only took 2 years longer than the F-22 Raptor.


Building 12 prototypes isn't "in service" by the Western definition of the word. At least the F-22 had a decent number built when it entered service in '05 (production stopped in '11). Also the F-22 wasn't some "interim" jet as the Russians are claiming. There are already nearly 200+ F-35s built when IOC was declared.

And in that time, Russia built the su 37 Berkut demonstrator and the MIg 1.44 that went to China and turned into the J-20. Hence why the J-20 was built so fast. There was no China competition. Once India inked the FGFA deal in 07, China knew that it couldn't partner for the su 57. So it went full bore on the J-20 in 08.


Building a couple of demonstrators doesn't mean much in a tactical or strategic sense.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 18:46
by cobra321
lrrpf52 wrote:Wait a minute here. Let's get some things straightened out before this gets off the rails.


Those engines are one of the most exposed engine nacelle arrangements I've ever seen.


I was taking your post seriously until this. You've not been invested in the debate if you are going to hang onto this tired point.

Russia built not one but TWO flying prototypes that have the exact same conventional S duct setup as the F-22, F-35 and J-20 that everyone endorses. (Yes I know, these demonstrators were not the computer generated shaped for stealth. But if chosen for the project, they would have been)

Image

Image

So stop implying that Russia didn't know how to do a conventional S duct setup or that Russia wasn't aware. Its just junk analysis. Russia CHOSE to do the setup that it did. It would have been a hell of a lot easier to just built the conventional setup rather than this complcated podded design with offset intakes and engine inward canting.

Russia also did NOT think "hey lets do it this way , it will cost us 25% more RCS even though are explicit goal is to match and neutralize the stealth advanatge of the F-22 as per basic military doctrine. No. Russia did it this way because they could make it work. Otherwise it would not be this way.

How arrogant do you have to be to declare the su 57 not stealth on grounds of pseudo internet RCS expert orthodoxy ? Its your orthodoxy that is incomplete. Not the other way around. And that goes for pretty much all of the alleged issues about the stealth on the su 57. People really think that the su 57 is one detail away from being RCS 14. Like a legacy Hornet.

And we all know the YF-23 intake comparsion. But that's not the only one.

Image

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 20:16
by XanderCrews
citanon wrote:Don't worry. By the time the US 6th gen actually arrives the Su-57 will be rebranded the Su-67, and re-cast as the beginnings of the Russian 7th gen program. :D



Dont forget to turn the wings backwards though

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 20:40
by XanderCrews
cobra321 wrote:
First off , your RCS charts are just assumptions made by armatures with an axe to grind...

...There's also the X-32. The idea that there has to be zero engine face to qualify as stealth is just not true.


And X-32 lost. You'll never guess one of the reasons why...

Also I thought your argument was that it didn't have exposed engine faces, and yet you are holding up the X-32 ...why? Which is it? Pick one it cant be both. Engine faces exposed or not? In for answers, and if you already answered and I missed it, I apologize but your posts are better suited to long blogs and it appears not even you can keep track

Also you appear to one be an "armature" yourself. Two are cluttering up the thread with inane theory, opinion, hearsay, conjecture and I dare say propaganda. Three you clearly havnt read any of the other threads here or even this one really.


Only a few years ago pakfa was going to get everyone shaking in their boots, 5th gen done right. Better than the F-22 on time and on budget with their Indian partnership.
Hundreds of aircraft expected, with even more exports.


Now they are talking a dozen with more years of development ahead and india has bailed. You saying "look at this article! They say its not bad!" And "look at these pictures that 'prove' its stealthy" even though it has well known signature problems.

Did you see England vs Panama in the world cup? Panama scored their first world cup goal ever. And all experts agree that goals are good. Better to have them then not, but of course they lost 7-1 and Panama is no England. But let's inflate that goal like suddenly Panama and England switched or something. I have an article, its unbiased...

I admire your restraint in not posting what your mother thinks about it as definitive proof for all the "armatures"

From just about every angle this program is a true failure. And if people can produce page after page of the F-35s issues and declare it a failure, then surely Su-57 rates somewhere between horrific and disastrous. I hope they keep it up. The only thing better than the strategic failure is fanbois doing everything they can to spin while they also meltdown. I love a good show, and Russia lol. Russia never disappoints

And no posting an article that says "at least they got 12!" And neat pictures and diagrams doesn't change that.

You also seem to have issues with comprehending straight lines and platforms as well, but I dont have all day to discuss it.

Please improve the quality of your posts and act like you have real information to present instead of this he said she said and insults. You're not going to win a single person over but will however get lots of frustration from folks like myself.

Russia did it this way because they could make it work. Otherwise it would not be this way.


And you have the nerve to talk about "orthodoxy" wow. That's some circular logic if I've ever seen it. Lol yes Russia would never produce anything that didnt work? Especially weapons amiright?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 19 Jul 2018, 05:16
by firebase99
Did I read that nonsense article correctly? I read alot of stuff on here so up to date with the SU-57 info but did they really state they're NOT going to produce the 57 as is cuz its TOO good and will make it a 6th Gen platform? They're INCAPABLE of a 5G platform!!! How can ANYONE take this seriously? Russia stronk is STRONG. They live in some mythical realm....wow.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 19 Jul 2018, 14:49
by wrightwing
cobra321 wrote:
lrrpf52 wrote:Wait a minute here. Let's get some things straightened out before this gets off the rails.


Those engines are one of the most exposed engine nacelle arrangements I've ever seen.


I was taking your post seriously until this. You've not been invested in the debate if you are going to hang onto this tired point.

Russia built not one but TWO flying prototypes that have the exact same conventional S duct setup as the F-22, F-35 and J-20 that everyone endorses. (Yes I know, these demonstrators were not the computer generated shaped for stealth. But if chosen for the project, they would have been)

Image

Image

So stop implying that Russia didn't know how to do a conventional S duct setup or that Russia wasn't aware. Its just junk analysis. Russia CHOSE to do the setup that it did. It would have been a hell of a lot easier to just built the conventional setup rather than this complcated podded design with offset intakes and engine inward canting.

Russia also did NOT think "hey lets do it this way , it will cost us 25% more RCS even though are explicit goal is to match and neutralize the stealth advanatge of the F-22 as per basic military doctrine. No. Russia did it this way because they could make it work. Otherwise it would not be this way.

How arrogant do you have to be to declare the su 57 not stealth on grounds of pseudo internet RCS expert orthodoxy ? Its your orthodoxy that is incomplete. Not the other way around. And that goes for pretty much all of the alleged issues about the stealth on the su 57. People really think that the su 57 is one detail away from being RCS 14. Like a legacy Hornet.

And we all know the YF-23 intake comparsion. But that's not the only one.

Image

Russia builds what it is able to build, either from a technological or economic standpoint. It's funny how Russian engineers/designers are a lot more measured in their claims, than their fans are.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 19 Jul 2018, 18:33
by cobra321
lrrpf52 wrote:
cobra321 wrote:
lrrpf52 wrote:Wait a minute here. Let's get some things straightened out before this gets off the rails.


Those engines are one of the most exposed engine nacelle arrangements I've ever seen.


I





[/img]

I wasn't talking about RF spectrum frontal aspect inlet exposure of the fans.

I was talking about exposed rear engine nacelle in the IR spectrum if you read my post carefully. If there is something they have done to mitigate IR spectrum signature from those huge, F-15-like exposed motors in one of the most thermally-loaded areas of the engines, it would be cutting edge technology.

The IR spectrum signature reduction efforts on F-22 and F-35 are substantial around their engines. It appears that at least half of the Su-27 derivative Saturn motors are totally exposed.


Another thing I've noticed missing from most of the photos of the Su-57 is a Helmet Mounted Display. Every test pilot I've seen is wearing the old 1970s-era motorcycle helmet type Russian skull bucket. I've seen promises and mentions of all kinds of different HMDs for the Su-57, which appear to be ungainly, but none so far on the test pilot's heads.

The Su-57 does have a Wide Field of View HUD, common to aircraft like the 1980s F-16C Block 40 or F-15E, and later F-22.

The Japanese tapped out, and they have a very pressing need to develop or field 5th Gen aircraft. Their GDP is over 3 times that of Russia, and they are one of the world's most renowned centers for high quality electronics and machinery production, with decades of experience manufacturing US designs under licensed contract.


Oh ok I thought you were talking about the front of the engines. I dont think thats an aerodynamic compromise. They did it because they could make it work. The goal first and foremost was stealth. Thats the only reason the jet was built.

Yes of course the engines wont go bare like they are on these prototypes. There is already one thats covered up. There is also an IR supression system in the works that uses 02. I'll have to find the details.

This isnt even the finished product. There will also be a fully serrated engine tip

Image


Image

Russia is the only other country with its own fully functioning global positioning system (GLONASS). It is the only nation certified to bring man to the intl space station. It leads the world in rocket launches. Its not like Russia in't technically or electronically savvy

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 19 Jul 2018, 19:36
by XanderCrews
wrightwing wrote:Russia builds what it is able to build, either from a technological or economic standpoint. It's funny how Russian engineers/designers are a lot more measured in their claims, than their fans are.



No no. This is so simple:

Russia just makes simple weapons that work. Weapons that are cheap and easy to mass produce, and are always "good enough" rather than going with the west's obsession with bells and whistles.


But also:

Russian weapons have all the bells and whistles of western weapons (better in fact) and are not only "good enough" but great, and are producing 12 units instead of mass production.

Why are you confused? Whats so hard to understand that Russia doesn't have fancy bells and whistles but also has the best fancy bells and fancy whistles? That Russian weapons are easy to mass produce, yet aren't being mass produced?



:doh: :doh: :doh:

Why are people having such a hard time with this?

cobra321 wrote:Image


even the engines look depressed.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 19 Jul 2018, 20:33
by mixelflick
Cobra 321 has opened my eyes...

If I were the USAF, I'd immediately stop mass production of the F-35 and instead build 12 interim jets, then mass produce more upgraded F-15's and 16's. I mean, it's only logical. We'll just wait another decade or so, declare the F-35 6th gen and THEN mass produce it.

Face it guys, this dude is a strategic thinker. We built a world beater and stupidly went into mass production with it. The F-35, it's designers, test pilots etc deserve better - they deserve 12 interim F-35's (call it 4 A's, B's and C's). It makes total sense..

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 19 Jul 2018, 20:58
by marsavian
The F-35 has only now reached initial production standard after hundreds have already been built which will need upgrading. I don't blame Russia for going slowly in 'production' as it's obvious they are still developing the product. Will it be finished before Gripen-NG ? Touch and go but it should beat the new stealthy Rafale/Typhoon replacements. The J-20 isn't finished either but the Chinese wanted it in their air force for show because of all the F-35s now appearing in the East.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 19 Jul 2018, 21:09
by mixelflick
marsavian wrote:The F-35 has only now reached initial production standard after hundreds have already been built which will need upgrading. I don't blame Russia for going slowly in 'production' as it's obvious they are still developing the product. Will it be finished before Gripen-NG ? Touch and go but it should beat the new stealthy Rafale/Typhoon replacements. The J-20 isn't finished either but the Chinese wanted it in their air force for show because of all the F-35s now appearing in the East.


Exactly what upgrades will these F-35's need? The software loads are what's typically added, with 3F dropping now (and as the RIAT demo illustrates), it really shows. The Russians have been caught in claim after claim. IOC in 2013, 14, 15, 16 now 2019. Really? Engines ready when? AESA radar when?

C'mon man. The Russians are like the little boy who cried wolf at this point. ZERO credibility..

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 20 Jul 2018, 01:48
by project458
icemaverick wrote:
project458 wrote:haha and you think that can continue forever"? All good things come to end. and speaking of finances, Russia just had its first budget surplus for the first time in years, Meanwhile the US will rack up 1 trillion more debt by years end.


https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-Gene ... -Deal.html

It doesn’t change the fact that Russia’s entire aircraft industry raked in less than $7 billion in revenue. By comparison, Netflix takes in more in revenue and profits. It doesn’t change the fact that Russia is completely dependent on oil. It doesn’t change the fact that the F-35 has literally thousands of firm orders with plenty more yet to come. Meanwhile, India has bolted on the Su-57 while Russia has only committed to 12.


Great. It doesn’t change the fact that Russia has a smaller GDP than Italy.


In dollar terms yes, but this real size of the Russian GDP

But in PPP terms its twice as large.

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY ... ions=RU-IT


It doesn’t change the fact that Russia is completely dependent on oil.



40% , not "completely" Russian government budget is based on $40 oil for 2018, do you know whats price of oil now?


Meanwhile, India has bolted on the Su-57 while Russia has only committed to 12.



India has dropped out of FGFA project because they found out their zero tech transfer, they them self said they will buy ready made examples of Su-57, when its already in service.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 20 Jul 2018, 01:59
by project458
required reading for the ignorant

As such, it makes a good amount of financial sense for the Russians to hold off on large-scale production until they can be certain they have resolved any major issues with the design. Otherwise, they could easily run the risk of ending up in a "concurrency" situation whereby they take delivery of dozens of aircraft with limited functional capability pending major and potentially costly upgrades. Considering it is debatable if Russia can afford large numbers of the new jets at all, building them with major defects that need to be rectified certainly isn't an attractive option
.


Guess which jet he talking about hahaha

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/22 ... st-not-yet

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 20 Jul 2018, 03:55
by SpudmanWP
marsavian wrote:The F-35 has only now reached initial production standard after hundreds have already been built which will need upgrading.
Everything from Lot10 (FY2016 jets) on is less than $1 mil to get to the final standard. Jets ordered today are at the final standard.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 20 Jul 2018, 05:44
by cobra321
I came to this thread to talk about the su 57. But nobody can get through a sentence about Russia, especially on military matters, without repeating 1990's era tropes about the economy. Its like Russia is in the 1990's all the time. Russia is not poor Im afraid..

Some people use the canard of USD nominal GDP measuring to understate Russia's GDP by more than half. When you measure a non dollar bloc economy this way, all you get is the exports. It doesn't account for any internally consumed or non dollar sold production. PPP is the way you measure Russia's GDP.

According to nominal GDP, Russia is 12th in the world. According to PPP, its 6th. Lets look at some other economic data to see what GDP measurement is more accurate.

Foreign exchange reserves: 5th
Gold reserves: 5th
Billionaires: 5th
Trade surplus of the last 12 months: 3rd

PPP wins. So no. This is not like Italy trying to build a stealth fighter or anything like that. Its like Germany building its own 5th gen fighter.

Russia is the world leader in commercial rocket launches and civil nuclear plant exports. Its the only country taking humans to ISS. It is the only other country with its own fully functioning satellite positioning system. (GLONASS) These fields require technical savvy. A country that does this has the engineering expertise to build a 5th gen fighter.

Image

Image

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 20 Jul 2018, 06:35
by fbw
KGB, first of all PPP is as equally flawed as GDP. It is a popular topic in Russo-centric circles. Mainly because they are completely ignorant of economics, hence the obsession with Brettonwoods; and the dollar.

First off, PPP GDP is more accurate for developing countries that don’t import technology, as it accurately represents the costs of needs: food, water, fuel. Russia isn’t considered a developing country, though outside of major population centers, housing and land are relatively cheap. Russia imports cars ( or builds foreign cars locally), phones, computers, machinery, household appliances, and basically most high tech products. What are those priced in? Dollars. Your little bullsh*t cabal of economic innocents, don’t seem to understand that the drop in rubles related to the dollar has impacted the standard of living in Russia. Simply put, what does a smartphone cost in % of wages now in Russia? Why has Russian tourism dropped off a cliff to EU nations? Why do Russian oligarchs hide their money in the grand caymans, etc... in dollars?

FYI, Russian GDP has experienced a lost decade. It has risen little since 2007, this is in the midst of a worldwide economic boom since the 2008-9 recession ( which hit Russia particularly hard), what shape is Russia going to be in during the next down cycle which is likely in 2019? Good luck selling BRICS.

P.s. the reason that Russia has to maintain a positive reserve is due to default on loans in the 1990’s, it cost too much for Russia to borrow. It isn’t a sign of economic strength, it is a sign of international banking’s mistrust of lending Russia money. U.S. T-bills and bonds are looked at as a sanctuary for money in times of economic uncertainty, Russian bond are a speculative investment, enough said. Ask any investment advisor... except in Moscow.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 20 Jul 2018, 07:26
by geforcerfx
cobra321 wrote:Russia is the world leader in commercial rocket launches and civil nuclear plant exports. Its the only country taking humans to ISS. It is the only other country with its own fully functioning satellite positioning system. (GLONASS) These fields require technical savvy. A country that does this has the engineering expertise to build a 5th gen fighter.

Wow all things they inherited from the Soviet Union and it's vastly larger economy, population and technical expertise. Like the trust fund kid bragging about all the great things his father did to make all the family money.

As far as all the other numbers, notice how much further behind Russia is from the USA and China. Is it the 90's? No, but Russia certainly isn't a major economic player, especially in fields that are needed for successful 5th generation development ( technology, software development, mass production of advance composite materials). People don't travel from around the world in droves to go to Russia for degrees in every scientific field, even China has that happening now. No it's not the 90's, but Russia fell 15 years behind the West and hasn't done anywhere near enough in the last 15 years to catch up.

Back to the Su-57, is it a good fighter, prob. If they mass produced it today, regardless of it not being VLO by western standards, regardless of the age or capabilities of the avionics or engines. By simply achieving the reduction in RCS they have over a basic flanker it immediately becomes more dangerous. Even if it was nothing more than a re-skinned Su-35 (same avionics and everything) it would be a deadly aircraft. Thrown into "mass" production today it would make most of the 4th gens flying around obsolete. But they aren't doing that, they are waiting, trying to get a better engine in it, trying to figure out software issues and improve the avionics, the hope being in 5-10 years and much Rubles later they have much more than a re-skinned Su-35, and they can do it. But the USA and China will now be 10 years further ahead, and the USA is already 15 years ahead. Basically the path they are choosing puts them into the same predicament, the new super Su-57 will face block 4 and 5 F-35's, upgraded F-22's and PCA, all carrying new types of weapons (energy, missiles). The only way they can catch up is to catch up economically, without the funding, without the advance economy backing it they will always be chasing the USA and now China too.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 20 Jul 2018, 12:49
by mixelflick
This is a great point, as Russia could put all western 4th gen jets at a big disadvantage IF they mass produced the SU-57 now. 5-10 years on, there will be upgraded F-35 (LOTS of them), upgraded F-22's and other aircraft and systems that will be more than a match for the SU-57 (even the "final" production bird). By pumping the SU-57 out now, they could put a good chunk of NATO aircraft at risk and level the playing field (small numbers of F-22's/F-35's notwithstanding).

But that's not what they're doing...

The party line are that the Mig-29/35 and upgraded Flankers are more than a match for Western air forces. That's a dubious claim, considering upgraded F-15's, 16's, 18''s, Typhoons, Rafale's and Gripens are likely more than a match for them. They certainly outnumber the Russian birds. But let's assume parity for the sake of argument.

That parity quickly swings back to NATO's advantage when you factor in the F-22 and F-35's rolling off the production line daily now. Sure, there aren't many F-22's. But this isn't the 1980's: We hold a significant numerical advantage now and the Raptor force alone is more than enough to drop any Mig-29/Super Flanker dumb enough to wander into its airspace. IF Russia was stamping out large numbers of SU-57 it'd would at least give them a fighting chance, and I think they know it.

Look Cobra123, it's a beautiful bird. Hands down the most capable fighter Russia will produce. But it's not in the same league as the F-22/35 where it really matters, and all of your vaunted "supermaneuverability" matters not when you're seen first, shot at first and killed first.

12 SU-57's also cost a lot more than 12-24 AMRAAM's that'll be downing them, so it doesn't make much financial sense either....

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 20 Jul 2018, 16:11
by gideonic
Leader in Commercial Space launches? Please! The media in Russia isn't broadcasting it half that rosily as you claim. SpaceX is decimating the Russian market-share:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_lau ... ompetition
Image

Some Russian articles about the Space Sector for you, (so that you'll stop spreading your distorted troll-factory™ nonsense here):

Russia stops manufacturing Proton rockets:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8bPhinnH84

About the shining space sector in general:
https://m.lenta.ru/articles/2018/07/03/roscosmos/

The "Angara" rocket has been developed for 20 years and is struggling to find any uses:
https://ria.ru/science/20180713/1524496346.html

An Ars Techinca article in english that pretty much sum it up:
https://arstechnica.com/science/2018/04 ... ch-market/

What about the Su-57?
Here is a more reasonable interpretation (in Russian) for the idiotic official claims that "all is well" and 12 is perfectly fine against 300+ F-35's (500 by 2020) and just 187 F-22s.
https://topwar.ru/144013-i-su-57-uzhe-ne-nuzhen.html

It draws parallels between Russian and Ukraine in this regard: e.g. By the same logic T-84 is the best tank in the world, 10 of those is totally enough to protect Ukraine from any threat (east or west) no need to build more, until "later and greater" versions are ready. Somehow all international orders have been cancelled :roll:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 20 Jul 2018, 19:43
by XanderCrews
marsavian wrote:The F-35 has only now reached initial production standard after hundreds have already been built which will need upgrading.


Nope. No. Wrong.

Not all F-35s will "need upgrading" first off. Plenty of "old standard" F-35s will remain in training and test units for decades with no need for major upgrades at all (where most are right now anyway) for obvious reasons is it critical that an early lot F-35 at Luke AFB training be up to the most current standard? no. (how many air forces still fly those boring old F-16As with relatively small upgrades?) my local unit somehow survived with boring old Block 30s decades after their fleet intro.


In the mean time, the whole point of the LRIP option that was taken is doing what it was expected to-- getting more 5th generation fighters into the mainstream force and manufacturing more and more every year instead of waiting for 10 years with nothing-- and thensuddenly trying to crank out 120 a year while that fleet sits on the ground waiting for pilots and support personnel to catch up.

How many f-35 pilots and support people does the F-35 have currently? according to LM its 500 pilots and 4500 maintainers. How many are going from 1970s cockpits to 21st century cockpits? different tactics? different maintenance and logistics? all this stuff matters. The boring minutia

This was said years ago, its not new. LRIP has real advantages. it gets the aircraft introduced as early as possible to both introduce personnel and systems to the change, and also suss out more problems outside a test environment.

Russia, is doing it wrong. Don't wait years for an engine, then wait more years to build the "production standard" airplane, and finally have the personnel figured out dead last.


Walk, crawl, jog, run, sprint.


not walk, run, walk, stop, sprint, run

F-35 is hitting "run" and sprint is coming up in the next few years. You can't get to run overnight. F-35 has been flying 11 years to get to 500 pilots, and 4500 support people.

I don't blame Russia for going slowly inproduction' as it's obvious they are still developing the product. Will it be finished before Gripen-NG ?



who cares?

Touch and go but it should beat the new stealthy Rafale/Typhoon replacements.



seeing as Pakfa dates back to 2002, i would hope so, but what a low bar?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 20 Jul 2018, 20:11
by XanderCrews
cobra321 wrote:I came to this thread to talk about the su 57. But nobody can get through a sentence about Russia, especially on military matters, without repeating 1990's era tropes about the economy. Its like Russia is in the 1990's all the time.



its "like that" because it is that.

Well I'm your huckleberry.

drawing parallels with the Su-57 and the Russia of the 1990s is inevitable since this is very much a movie we have seen before again and again.

it certainly is easy to say its like the 1990s when they are doing the same things they did in the 1990s. maybe you should take that up with Russia, if you want to see us stop talking about the 1990s they could try evolving beyond them.

of course since Russia has such a vastly different and improved economy now and its not at all like the 1990s-- we should pay no attention to the piddly batch of new fighters vs keeping the old cold war era birds going while their exports dry up. cuz things are different now!

The Mere fact that to prove Russia is not like the 1990s in terms of aircraft development and force sustainment requires us talking about everything but aircraft and Russian force sustainment tells me all I need to know-- while you rather ironically complain about it. "why aren't we talking about airplanes!" laments the guy who doesn't use airplanes to show progress on airplanes.

Whether Russia's economy is vastly better or not becomes irrelevant when we continue to see the same pattern repeated ad nausem. maybe its overly broad, or overly generalized. I'll cop to that. But big picure? this is looking pretty same-same. people are going to notice that. Russia, its economy, and it struggles to rearm post war are all interlinked. If it bothers you, then there are other threads or even forums to spam, but we are not beholden to speak about only what pleases you. this isn't your job (as far as I know) and you are not being paid or coerced into participating- in other words if you don't like what people are saying and can't convince them with your lack of evidence, maybe some outside time on a walk is in order.


lrrpf52 wrote:But we've got great news folks! They freaking easily crank out 6th Gen Su-57 Omnirole Raptor slayers using nothing but the best technology one can imagine, not like those Yankee dogs and their multi-billion dollar waste of fat taxpayer's money.


Easily indeed. They CHOOSE not to. The economy is superb this isn't the 1990s. Why they could choose to build 1000 of them if they pleased. they just don't really "feel" like it ya know?

This is not the 1990s.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 20 Jul 2018, 20:31
by marsavian
Not all F-35s will "need upgrading" first off. Plenty of "old standard" F-35s will remain in training and test units for decades with no need for major upgrades at all (where most are right now anyway) for obvious reasons is it critical that an early lot F-35 at Luke AFB training be up to the most current standard? no. (how many air forces still fly those boring old F-16As with relatively small upgrades?) my local unit somehow survived with boring old Block 30s decades after their fleet intro.


As I understand it because there is time and the volume is low (especially of those requiring structural mods) the USAF plans to being everything up to 3F standard. The real division will be between block 3F and internally different block 4 (CPUs/network/sensors) as I suspect the 3F will be good enough to leave as they are.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 20 Jul 2018, 21:09
by eloise
cobra321 wrote:Come on. I don't usually defend Russian equipment but where does this exaggeration about the su 57 stop ?

Please KGB, you always defense Russian equipment, why pretend to be someone else?, you are the only person who think Su-57 and PAK-FA have the same inlet configuration

cobra321 wrote:First the intake. The intake does not show any more engine face than the YF-23 or X-32 design did. It does not have the same S duct setup as the F-22. But it does have offset intakes like the YF-23. And the engines canted inward. So any scatter won't get out of the intake.
Image
Image

The inlet of Su-57 may not show more engine face than X-32 but it does show more engine face than YF-23.
Your picture comparison is flawed because the front landing gear of PAK-FA is shorter than the back landing gear so when on the ground,Su-57 body points slightly downward. Whereas front and back landing gear of YF-23 are equally long
Su-57.JPG

YF-23.JPG


Then we have the little very important fact: F-23 model that was used on RCS test pole (and also the one intended to go into production) is F-23A EMD , with DSI inlet, further blocked the view toward the turbine blades.
YF-23EMD.JPG




cobra321 wrote:The su 57 has planform alignment, a true blend wing design with podded engines which gives it less surface angling than the F-22.

Su-57 doesn't have fewer corners reflector than F-22 stop that nonsense
F-22.JPG


cobra321 wrote:Russia built not one but TWO flying prototypes that have the exact same conventional S duct setup as the F-22, F-35 and J-20 that everyone endorses. (Yes I know, these demonstrators were not the computer generated shaped for stealth. But if chosen for the project, they would have been)
So stop implying that Russia didn't know how to do a conventional S duct setup or that Russia wasn't aware. Its just junk analysis. Russia CHOSE to do the setup that it did. It would have been a hell of a lot easier to just built the conventional setup rather than this complcated podded design with offset intakes and engine inward canting.
Russia also did NOT think "hey lets do it this way , it will cost us 25% more RCS even though are explicit goal is to match and neutralize the stealth advanatge of the F-22 as per basic military doctrine. No. Russia did it this way because they could make it work. Otherwise it would not be this way

Or they chose to make sacrifices in stealth to gain an advantage in kinematic. Every design have pro-cons, you can't have it all. You are assuming that Su-57 design can't have a single drawbacks because that doesn't fit your nationalistic agenda, that just junk analysis.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 20 Jul 2018, 22:01
by SpudmanWP
marsavian wrote:[The real division will be between block 3F and internally different block 4 (CPUs/network/sensors) as I suspect the 3F will be good enough to leave as they are.

The plan has always been to keep all jets at the latest version. They will not be as different as you think. This is easier to do int eh F-35 because most of everything is software driven & defined.

There are 4 different "sub-blocks" in the Block 4 plan (with fleet availability)
4.1 (2021) = software only
4.2 (2023) = software & hardware
4.3 (~2025) = software only
4.4 (~2027) = software & hardware

Some of the hardware that we know is coming is "backwards compatible" with the current stuff. This means that new builds will have the new stuff and the older jets can get the newer stuff when the parts are cycled through the depots for repair. One example of the is is the Advance EOTS that LM has proposed. It fits into the exact bay as the current EOTS uses, uses the same power, same interface, and same cooling requirements as an existing EOTS. In fact, if you put an AdvEOTS into a Block 3F F-35, that F-35 will treat it as a Legacy EOTS. This will allow EOTS that com in for repairs to get rebuilt as AdvEOTS and go back into a 3F jet. When the jet gets 4.2, then the new functions will activate.

The same likely also applies to the new EODAS from Raytheon given that it is lighter & cheaper than existing EODAS.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 21 Jul 2018, 01:09
by cobra321
eloise wrote:
cobra321 wrote:Come on. I don't usually defend Russian equipment but where does this exaggeration about the su 57 stop ?

Please KGB, you always defense Russian equipment, why pretend to be someone else?, you are the only person who think Su-57 and PAK-FA have the same inlet configuration

cobra321 wrote:First the intake. The intake does not show any more engine face than the YF-23 or X-32 design did. It does not have the same S duct setup as the F-22. But it does have offset intakes like the YF-23. And the engines canted inward. So any scatter won't get out of the intake.
g[/img]

The inlet of Su-57 may not show more engine face than X-32 but it does show more engine face than YF-23.
Your picture comparison is flawed because the front landing gear of PAK-FA is shorter than the back landing gear so when on the ground,Su-57 body points slightly downward. Whereas front and back landing gear of YF-23 are equally long


Then we have the little very important fact: F-23 model that was used on RCS test pole (and also the one intended to go into production) is F-23A EMD , with DSI inlet, further blocked the view toward the turbine blades.




cobra321 wrote:The su 57 has planform alignment, a true blend wing design with podded engines which gives it less surface angling than the F-22.

Su-57 doesn't have fewer corners reflector than F-22 stop that nonsense


cobra321 wrote:Russia built not one but TWO flying prototypes that have the exact same conventional S duct setup as the F-22, F-35 and J-20 that everyoe F-22 as per basic military doctrine. No. Russia did it this way because they could make it work. Otherwise it would not be this way

Or they chose to make sacrifices in stealth to gain an advantage in kinematic. Every design have pro-cons, you can't have it all. You are assuming that Su-57 design can't have a single drawbacks because that doesn't fit your nationalistic agenda, that just junk analysis.

?
1) We don't know if the su 57 shows more engine face than the YF-23. Why why WHY is there only ONE pic showing engine face on the su 57 ? After all of these prototypes out there getting pics take. Up close at MAKS and everything. But that's beside the point. The point is, showing some engine face is NOT a stealth deal breaker. Even if the YF-23 or X-32 shows less engine face. The point always was, that the su 57 could not be stealth because it showed engine face. That is just 100% wrong because the YF and X 32 show some engine face.

This is the 23's production blueprint. Some engine face would still be seen

Image

Su-57 doesn't have fewer corners reflector than F-22 stop that nonsense


The su 57 is a true blend wing design. Which means there is simply less airplane. The underside and top of the jet have less curvature simply b/c there is less airplane there. he F-22 is a top wing with a conventional fuselage.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 21 Jul 2018, 01:23
by firebase99
Why the 57's comparison to prototypes from 30 years ago? Those didnt go into production. They werent good enough 30 years ago to win the bid but the 57 is "so good they dont need to make them." Im so confused...

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 21 Jul 2018, 06:12
by popcorn
cobra321 wrote:And yes. Its isolated and nobody wants to go there. Except that it is the 2nd most immigrated to country in the world.


LOL... You really should use to the most recent statistics

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 21 Jul 2018, 06:23
by cobra321
^Like the nearly 4% of the Ukraine population that has moved to Russia since 2014 ?

Anyone who says that the engines are straight through like a su 27 just isn't looking close enough.

Image

Take a very close look at this pic you say ??

Image

^Where do think the landing gear and wheel assembly is sitting ? Directly infront of the engine ? No. Its not. That engine is sitting up above. That runner is straight for aerodynamics and to fit the landing gear in. That's not where the engine is.

Image

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 21 Jul 2018, 06:37
by popcorn
popcorn wrote:
cobra321 wrote:And yes. Its isolated and nobody wants to go there. Except that it is the 2nd most immigrated to country in the world.


LOL... You really should use the most recent statistics

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 21 Jul 2018, 11:48
by botsing
popcorn wrote:
cobra321 wrote:And yes. Its isolated and nobody wants to go there. Except that it is the 2nd most immigrated to country in the world.


LOL... You really should use to the most recent statistics

^ this

Besides this statistic is just FUD and at best a strawman since it does not say anything about the skills of those immigrants and most immigrants to/from Russia are from/to former soviet states so go figure.

Also the billionaire statistic is a sad one since it shows how awfully bad the wealth distribution in Russia is.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 21 Jul 2018, 14:28
by swiss
cobra321 wrote:^Like the nearly 4% of the Ukraine population that has moved to Russia since 2014 ?

Anyone who says that the engines are straight through like a su 27 just isn't looking close enough.

Image


Take a very close look to that Picture.

Image

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 21 Jul 2018, 14:53
by mixelflick
A big part of the reason the SU-57 isn't taken as seriously as the SU-35 or even J-20 is the whole "boy who cried wolf" syndrome.

I can vividly remember its first flight in 2010. Shortly afterward, they claimed IOC of 2013. Then 2014, 15, 16 and today we're hearing 2019 is when the first of 12 "pre production" versions would be available. They've also claimed its going to be a Raptor killer, head and shoulders above any other aircraft and essentially unbeatable. Slowly, we heard about Indian angst with the program, the fact the current engines are inadequate etc.. This breeds speculation as to how far behind the integrated avionics, weapons etc are.

By contrast the SU-35 is a real aircraft, in service and flying actual combat missions in Syria. The J-20 may not be a true VLO design, but then again the Chinese aren't claiming it is either. So it is the claims the Russians have made about the SU-57 that are problematic. In some cases they've been proven to be lies, and others impossible to validate. Russia would have been a lot better off just saying something like the following..

"The SU-57 has proven more challenging to build than originally thought. Although it is still progressing, it isn't to a point yet where we feel confident in fielding it to operational units. Much work remains to be done, but we're confident the problems will eventually be resolved. Much like the T-10 was to the SU-27, we anticipate a similar design evolution."

What's wrong with something like that??

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 21 Jul 2018, 20:05
by XanderCrews
cobra321 wrote:
I get it. Trashing Russia is America's favorite past time....



Sigh


Dont complain that people are talking about economics instead of airplanes when you keep bringing up economics...

Your nationalist accusations are not only not welcome but utterly unconvincing. You continue to look more and more absurd and are alienating rather than convincing anyone.


This isnt keypubs. Stop.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 21 Jul 2018, 20:09
by XanderCrews
cobra321 wrote:^Like the nearly 4% of the Ukraine population that has moved to Russia since 2014 ?

Anyone who says that the engines are straight through like a su 27 just isn't looking close enough.



Image

Image

Its over. You can stop now. You lost. Its done. You can post whatever you want. The above won't change

Image

The YF-23s engines are placed higher and more toward the mid line of the aircraft to obscure the faces to nearly perfect degree. all your little line drawings don't comprehend the concept of a 3D space. Although Su-57 and YF-23 have obviously similar layouts, with Stealth the devil is in the details and the cost is the devils nasty buck toothed sister. In the YF-23s case the engines are like a pitchers fast ball buried "high and inside"

Image

The only way to see an engine face is to get close in front of the intake and then look (AGAIN) UP and to the Mid Line of the airplane. having said that though. Yes some of the engine face is exposed from very specific and acute angles. Which was noted at the time.

Here is a very distinct picture showing the engine/intake offset, that I'm sure you made certain not to post since it doesn't fit your narrative and attempt at manipulation:

Image

Note how much higher the engine nacelles are, and that they are closer to the midline. Far more offset from the intakes than the Su-57. if one looks at the PAKFA tail the engines are more widely spaced (thus more inline with the intake) and the tail is far more flattened overall.

Now please. Please. Stop comparing one of the most beautiful aircraft to ever take to the skies with a Russian Trash Can knockoff that even the Russians themselves aren't in a hurry to get. Russian should have done "what they always do" (HAHAHA) and just copied the YF-23

Please note. This has nothing to do with nationalism, and instead has more to do with the simple fact that although the Su-57 engines are indeed, offset slightly is not nearly as offset as the YF-23 engines and thus the engine face is more visible from the front. nothing you do or say will change how the SU-57 is built. The end.

I don't have to be a stealth expert to see and understand 3D space and how blueprints work or what my eyes can plainly see. Remember. Propoganda has to at least have the seed of truth in it, don't make it too obvious, Tovarich.

If you want to keep on harping on the YF-23, and X-32 as models to follow even though they both date from your dreaded 1990s and both were LOSERS as an excuse(?) as to why even PAKFA partners (India) had serious doubts, you go right ahead.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 21 Jul 2018, 21:21
by juretrn
lrrpf52 wrote:A senior scientist at Lockheed Martin told Business Insider that the Chinese made serious missteps when trying to integrate stealth into the J-20.

"It's apparent from looking at many pictures of the aircraft that the designers don't fully understand all the concepts of LO design," the scientist said, referring to low-observable, or stealth, design.

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-real ... jet-2017-1

I'd love to know what the guy meant by that.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 21 Jul 2018, 21:54
by marsavian
TBF the Russians have not claimed a very low RCS for Su-57, they have just wrongly assumed that F-22 is in that same arena, 0.1-0.5 sq m, when in reality that is more likely where western 4.5 gen fighters hang out when clean like Super Hornet, Rafale, Gripen, Typhoon. The Su-57 is just not finished, is the radar/sensors working ? The engines ? The missiles and their embedded release ? At the moment it's just a long term technology testbed. It's not a serious combat fighter at the moment.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 22 Jul 2018, 08:06
by eloise
cobra321 wrote:1) We don't know if the su 57 shows more engine face than the YF-23. Why why WHY is there only ONE pic showing engine face on the su 57 ? After all of these prototypes out there getting pics take. Up close at MAKS and everything. But that's beside the point. The point is, showing some engine face is NOT a stealth deal breaker. Even if the YF-23 or X-32 shows less engine face. The point always was, that the su 57 could not be stealth because it showed engine face. That is just 100% wrong because the YF and X 32 show some engine face.
This is the 23's production blueprint. Some engine face would still be seen
Image

The inlet of F-23 bend not only in the vertical but also horizontal
Screenshot_20180722-134735~2.png

Whereas Su-57 inlets are mostly straight with slight bend
t50-21.jpg

So we do know su-57 shows more engine face. Obviously that doesn't mean su-57 isn't a stealth aircraft, it just means that it is likely to be less stealthy because the engine face will have negative effect on frontal RCS

cobra321 wrote:The su 57 is a true blend wing design. Which means there is simply less airplane. The underside and top of the jet have less curvature simply b/c there is less airplane there. he F-22 is a top wing with a conventional fuselage.
Image

Image

Image

Size have very minimal effect on stealth, unlike shaping. Pod configuration likely reduces drag but it also creates more corners, which isn't beneficial to stealth

cobra321 wrote:^Draw it in yourself. Show me from the top down where this alleged engine face is.

Why draw from the top when you can see the inlet clearly from the bottom
Image


cobra321 wrote:But either way it doesn't matter. Originally the buzz was that any engine face meant "no stealth" because that's how the F-22 is. But the 23 and 32 show that not to be the case. Engine face is not a stealth deal breaker. And hey, the YF-23 had better all aspect stealth than the F-22

YF-23 hide inlet pretty well with DSI and S duct. X-32 lose against x-35 and hey f-23 doesn't separate horizontal and vertical stabs so it has 2 fewer corners compared to F-22

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 22 Jul 2018, 17:25
by botsing
cobra321 is the type of person that thinks that if you repeat the same nonsense often enough it actually becomes truth.

This means we can stop confusing him with our science and facts, this guy is stuck in a loop and we cannot help him.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 22 Jul 2018, 19:34
by XanderCrews
cobra321 wrote:
I see what you did there. You zoomed in so that you cant tell that you are not in fact looking at the jet head on. Its off on a 45 degree angle.


a Full 45 degrees huh?

And that once again is the famous pic. The only pic that shows engine face. Strange. Its either an optical illusion or a photoshop.


LOL :doh: you just keep on doubling down there. :mrgreen:

The fan is there in that pic because its there in real life. The reason its not showing in the other pictures, is because you don't understand how light and shadow work:

Image

OMG IT MUST NOT HAVE ENGINES IN!! :roll: :roll: :roll:

All photos of F-15 engine faces are now photoshop!

Pass the joint.


I think youve had enough already. you don't even seem to even comprehend how actual proof works.

its over. you lost. you have nothing

when the su 57 comes up , he loses it


It's a terrible affliction as you've demonstrated.

My biggest issue with how you post is that you assume everyone is as ignorant as yourself. So you're really only convincing you. No one brought up Tyler Rogaway. You did. Just to bash him for "proof"?? What did that prove?

Having worked around aircraft for years and years i can tell you that even in broad daylight you cant always see engine faces or many other things for that matter . Which is why we carry flashlights for example when you need to take a look in the books and crannies, Intakes are a great example.

I cant believe i even have to explain this. The concepts of light and shadow are now "photoshop." Step outta that basement bro. You simply yelling photo shop isnt going to convince anyone. We see what it is. And my friends who are close followers and huge fans of Russian gear and really try to analyze it know what it is. So even the Russian fans see engine fans.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 22 Jul 2018, 19:50
by juretrn
I got it guys; Su-57 isn't stealth, but it's stels (that's what the Russians call it).
The difference between stels and stealth is that you do stels when you can't afford to do stealth properly. :wink:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 22 Jul 2018, 22:34
by XanderCrews
https://forum.keypublishing.com/showthr ... XXV/page81


Image

KGB/Cobra arguing the same trash 18 months later again, with the same affect


You can always tell the keypubs kids

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 23 Jul 2018, 01:05
by elvis1
These aren't the droids you're looking for. :wink:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 23 Jul 2018, 04:23
by element1loop
Plus Cobra321 is simply pretending the bottom left image is a "head on" aspect when it clearly isn't, the noise is pointed down at the deck, in flight it would be facing slightly upward. And it's just as angled downwards, away from "head-on" aspect, as the bottom right image is offset to one side of a "head on" aspect. lol

Plus the left-of-image intake shown within the left bottom pic is more or less in a direct line with its mid-engine and burner can (with no verticle depth in the airframe thichness to hide it with intake geometry kink. Fairly clear (in an imaginary world with Su57s) that the fan faces will be mucho exposed, when approx head-to-head with an open flight of 4 approaching F-35s. The fused F-35s are going to easily see and track the imaginary (shit-canned) Su57--first, and would ensure that it did not get a sniff of F-35s.

Good luck with that.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 23 Jul 2018, 04:42
by pmi
Unfortunately I've been pulled into the off-topic trap but this misdirection should be pointed out.

cobra321 wrote:Image

cobra321 wrote:Image


I'm actually surprised no one else commented on this little bit of cherry picking.

What is the total number of billionaires in each country? What are their respective populations? How many billionaires per capita?

Additionally, having virtually all of a nation's wealth concentrated in a single location isn't actually a good thing.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 23 Jul 2018, 13:39
by milosh
Photo of clear visible Su-57 fan blades is BS, it could be possible only if what we see is some kind of blocker, but if that is fan blade then we have bent jet engine (bent in horizontal plane to be precise).

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 23 Jul 2018, 15:17
by zhangmdev
Those two bumps/ridges on the back do not indicate where the engine begins.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 23 Jul 2018, 20:47
by XanderCrews
cobra321 wrote:Sure im repeating. But others are repeating their dissention.


"Dissention" to what? you have no authority here. The picture with the fan exists not because of photoshop but because thats how they built it, and to use your logic "they wouldn't build it that way unless they had a reason to" so stop questioning mother Russia's engineering prowess.


Secondly you're cherry picking pictures as I already explained

Who cares ? You do apparently. Ppl care so little that they keep making threads about it


I care about FACTS not your one man crusade to derail every thread on the internet with indefensible and contradictory notions that have been shot down already, years ago in fact.

Image

DISSENTION

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 23 Jul 2018, 20:48
by XanderCrews
pmi wrote:Unfortunately I've been pulled into the off-topic trap but this misdirection should be pointed out.

cobra321 wrote:Image

cobra321 wrote:Image


I'm actually surprised no one else commented on this little bit of cherry picking.

What is the total number of billionaires in each country? What are their respective populations? How many billionaires per capita?

Additionally, having virtually all of a nation's wealth concentrated in a single location isn't actually a good thing.



Russia wouldn't do it that way unless that was best way. Pay attention. Dissention will not be tolerated

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 23 Jul 2018, 22:30
by milosh
XanderCrews wrote:Image

DISSENTION


It could be engine fan blades only if engine is bent which is impossible:
https://forum.keypublishing.com/attachm ... 1269342978

btw author missed height of engine it isn't that higher then intake but still it is clear why fan blades can't be as on photo, becuase engine would need to bent.

Probable photoshop:
https://forum.keypublishing.com/showthr ... ost1553926

And I really don't see point? If X-32 with big exposed fan blades could be stealthy thanks to radar blocker, if F-117 is also stealthy thanks to intake mesh aka radar blocker, why all the sudden Su-57 with radar blocker isn't stealthy?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 23 Jul 2018, 23:47
by vilters
Yep, the F-57 fan blades/engine radar blocker is so stealthy that it is nowhere to be seen. :devil:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2018, 02:31
by fbw
cobra321 wrote:
vilters wrote:Yep, the F-57 fan blades/engine radar blocker is so stealthy that it is nowhere to be seen. :devil:


So that clears things up. Now after 8 years, there is none - zero pics showing the engine face of the su 57. But I am under no illusions that someone will eventually get down there at an airshow and find some engine face. Just like the YF-23. So my diagram still stands.


"At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul-"


KGB, do yourself a favor.... stop posting. Fan blades are the single biggest reflector of RF energy. IF what you say was true (and it isn't) there would be no point in LO shaping anywhere else on the airframe. And please stop with the YF-23 crap, two years.... and there is literally no-one who agrees with you for two very good reasons: 1. The YF-23 DEM/VAL was not LO, it wasn't supposed to be. The RCS test mule was different and closer to what the EMD aircraft would have been. 2. The YF-23 engine face wasn't visible head on, and the EMD would have used both a DSI and slightly different duct (well established), simply put... non-comparison.

Yes, the picture is a photoshop. You can't even see the IGV of an F-15 unless your literally standing in front of it from a few feet away. Doesn't make the F-15 intake "stealthy". Literally,the -117 would have to be the longest fighter engine in the world for the IGV to be that close to the intake.

Doesn't let you off the hook. Rather makes you look more like a fool. It has been established since the early Pak-Fa patents were released that the aircraft would use a radar blocker (as does the F-18 E/F and the prospective F-32), some speculate this is the "device 9" shown on the patents- I'm not so sure that's exactly true. There were animations showing a blocker similar to the prospective F-32.

There would be no point in edge alignment or treatments if the engine face was exposed to any significant degree, for both RCS and NCTR. Any "blocker" solution has both benefits and drawbacks (just like incorporating a full s duct), the biggest drawback is that those vanes will have to be open fully at supersonic speeds. Meaning that there will be some compromise to RCS for the aircraft to supercruise or reach high mach speeds, but lighter, and less issues with flow separation.

This has been the same conversation for better than two years. You are a disgrace to Russian posters. They know better, they've told you as well. The Su-57 has a totally different intake design than the YF-23. Exposed fan blades are a major reflector of RF energy, not to mention a great way to ID a bogey. The Su-57 isn't finished, harping on the RCS of what are essentially test aircraft shows your immaturity and lack of intelligence.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2018, 03:50
by element1loop
milosh wrote:And I really don't see point? If X-32 with big exposed fan blades could be stealthy thanks to radar blocker, if F-117 is also stealthy thanks to intake mesh aka radar blocker, why all the sudden Su-57 with radar blocker isn't stealthy?


X-32 lost (almost everyone was deeply relieved)

F-117A was transonic. It did not have to make enough grunt to hover near to MTOW.

Su57 is not designed to cruise slowly, nor to cruise long-range at low altitude, it has that huge wing and control surfaces for predictable reasons (to attempt to fly and fight where the F-22A does). So would you want the max altitude and the max cruise speed at altitude performance-limited or impeded by the (mythical, fictional and wholely imaginary) Su57's radar-blocker, which no one has apparently ever clapped eyes on?

Maybe the Su-sensible™ reason it was built that way, and doesn't have a radar-blocker, is that it strangled the performance of the already lackluster engine thrust and its responsiveness, thus snuffing its P:W ratio, and labored it into an engine-eating struggle to become quasi-agile. Maybe the Su-sensible™ reasons for the almost but not quite straight inlet tunnels were that the struggling engines worked better that way at the desired speeds and altitude ranges?

Hence it is a misconceived lemon, thus ever so slowly shit-canned, whilst continuing the messianic cult-thang spiels, due all the flag-waving poop-storms of the past decade, making the optics of its failure so much more crushing.

__

PS: My nose is so much more fit-for-purpose when not filled with 'radar-blocker' ... jus sayin.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2018, 04:09
by fbw
@element1loop- exactly how is your post better than Cobra/KGB? The F-18 E/F was in service several years before there was a clear picture of the radar blocker. The F-32 used the IGV as a radar blocker (and while it lost for a myriad of reasons, I don't recall RCS mentioned), what IS mentioned is that the guide vanes would have been partially closed for cruise speeds.

RCS/Inlet performance/weight/complexity, there are trade-offs in both and S duct and use of a radar blocker. Whatever we can say about the prospective success/failure of the Su-57, the engineers of Sukhoi aren't stupid. They have designed some elegant and effective airframes (no comment on engine designers or avionics). There is zero reason to assume that what the patent and graphics have alluded to isn't there. The one picture has very questionable roots (I recall when the alleged "source" posted it.) It is very likely a fake: length of engine, lack of shadow, similarities to previous static display IGV, proximity to inlet. Just to name a few. Take a look at the distance from the inlet to first stage in an F-15 or Su-27.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2018, 04:37
by archangel117
milosh wrote:And I really don't see point? If X-32 with big exposed fan blades could be stealthy thanks to radar blocker, if F-117 is also stealthy thanks to intake mesh aka radar blocker, why all the sudden Su-57 with radar blocker isn't stealthy?


Remember the X-32 lost and even the X-35 with S-duct was said to have an RCS around 0.03 (only the later redesigned F-35 had an RCS sub 0.0001). The F-117 had an X band RCS around 0.1.

Which would jive with the SU-57 having an X-band RCS of around 0.18 (similar to clean F-18E/F with radar blocker) according to a simulation. It might be more or less because it did not include rivets, gaps, engine face/blocker.

However I would hope/expect that the RCS will drop by 30% or more (0.05-0.01) due to introduction of RAM, RAS, new engine and radar blocker. However weight will also increase.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2018, 04:50
by element1loop
Your image above is an interesting development. That's just mean.

My questions to you are; Given virtually all of the Ru fleet of bombers, fighter-bombers, recon and fighter types have similar inlet tunnel design, and the fan face is the highest RCS item, and provides the most info about a contact, and these aircraft have all been recently refurbed and updated, and this has been a major detection and ID issue for decades, did any of these types get retrofitted with the radar-blocker tech developed for the Su57?

Does the Su27, a.k.a. Su35, have it?

Did the other refreshed types get these?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2018, 10:43
by knowan
I doubt that photo is a photoshop; close pixel analysis shows no indication of such a job. Eg, the engine face is the exact same resolution as the rest of the plane, and the ladder that crosses in front of the engine face shows no aberrations.

If it is a photoshop, then it is a very high quality professional job.


Further, the light source is at a low angle in front of the plane, which is consistent with the illumination required for fan blades inside a jet intake to be visible.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2018, 11:05
by element1loop
knowan wrote:I doubt that photo is a photoshop; close pixel analysis shows no indication of such a job. Eg, the engine face is the exact same resolution as the rest of the plane, and the ladder that crosses in front of the engine face shows no aberrations.

If it is a photoshop, then it is a very high quality professional job.


Further, the light source is at a low angle in front of the plane, which is consistent with the illumination required for fan blades inside a jet intake to be visible.


So what you're implying, is that the 'real' elaborate hoax image here is really that 'engine-front' view only image, that has been concocted from an actual image of the T-50's inlet, tunnel and fan, to try to convince people that it isn't really a naked photo up the tunnel duct, showing a fan face?

OK ...

lol

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2018, 11:09
by disconnectedradical
KGB/cobra321 is a complete moron. First, YF-23 doesn't have better all around stealth than F-22, because it's a flight demonstrator without all the stealth features, and it's the RCS of propose F-23A that's better than RCS of propose F-22. But even F-22 changed a bit after it was selected so what it is now is different from proposed.

Also, this is original pic of Su-57 engine face.
Image

Not a photoshop. The only photoshop is someone purposely trying to make the blades look "sharper" so they photoshopped the picture of an engine into the original, but don't know why that was done because it was not necessary. Even PAK FA patent show some engine face visible.

But none of this matter because Su-57 will have engine blocker, it was even patented with some details given. But this is still different from F-23 because F-23 proposal use DSI so KGB/cobra321 comparing Su-57 with F-23 or YF-23 is still retarded.

Now I'm tired of seeing KGB/cobra321 retarded bullshit here and on Key Pubs. He is embarrassment for people who actually know and like Russian aircraft.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2018, 11:30
by doge
Another photo that can see the inside of intake.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2018, 11:48
by element1loop
doge wrote:Another photo that can see the inside of intake.


Good doge! Thank you.

So the front-engine alone image is the elaborate hoax. ........ and the source was?


Still wondering about Su35 intake tunnels though ........... kinda doubt it.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2018, 12:00
by swiss
element1loop wrote:
doge wrote:Another photo that can see the inside of intake.


Good doge! Thank you.

So the front-engine alone image is the elaborate hoax. ........ and the source was?


Still wondering about Su35 intake tunnels though ........... kinda doubt it.


In this Russian Documentary about the Su-35 you see the intake tunnels from the inside. Starts at 11:20


Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2018, 12:01
by fbw
Doge’s picture is pretty definitive.

The previous lightened pic in the nighttime was doctored from the original, I’ll take Rad’s word for it that they just overlayed the image from the static display engine (but that is not the original you posted Rad). It’s on this forum, hold on.
download/file.php?id=14676&mode=view

@elemental, why are you taking about the Su-35 intake funnels?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2018, 12:18
by element1loop
Due to my question here:

viewtopic.php?p=398469#p398469

If a new-build, why no blockers, if it's not got them? You'd want those, given the tunnel geometry.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2018, 12:29
by fbw
element1loop wrote:Due to my question here:

viewtopic.php?p=398469#p398469

If a new build, why no blockers, if it's not got them?


The Su-35 doesn’t. I don’t really buy that the RCS was really reduced that much from the Su-27 to really need them. From Doge’s pic of the Su-57 it is pretty clear that prototype doesn’t. If the graphic from years ago is accurate, it should look like similar to the IGV blocker planned for the F-32.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2018, 12:32
by element1loop
@swiss,

Thank you, that was perfect.

So no radar-blockers on the Su35.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2018, 12:44
by knowan
element1loop wrote:
knowan wrote:I doubt that photo is a photoshop; close pixel analysis shows no indication of such a job. Eg, the engine face is the exact same resolution as the rest of the plane, and the ladder that crosses in front of the engine face shows no aberrations.

If it is a photoshop, then it is a very high quality professional job.


Further, the light source is at a low angle in front of the plane, which is consistent with the illumination required for fan blades inside a jet intake to be visible.


So what you're implying, is that the 'real' elaborate hoax image here is really that 'engine-front' view only image, that has been concocted from an actual image of the T-50's inlet, tunnel and fan, to try to convince people that it isn't really a naked photo up the tunnel duct, showing a fan face?

OK ...

lol


I'm disagreeing with the claim that the photograph could be doctored by someone copying the image of a T-50 engine fan into the inlet and tunnel of a different photo.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2018, 12:47
by fbw
Look back one page and click on the link for the side by sides of the original and the other. The link is on my post near the bottom of page.

In the original, you can certainly see what looks like the guide vanes, but it dark. In Doge’s pic it’s as clear as day.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2018, 13:16
by element1loop
fbw wrote:
element1loop wrote:Due to my question here:

viewtopic.php?p=398469#p398469

If a new build, why no blockers, if it's not got them?


The Su-35 doesn’t. I don’t really buy that the RCS was really reduced that much from the Su-27 to really need them. ...


Your remark here is confounding to me. First thing you'd want to do with the original Flanker design is lower its frontal RCS via shielding the fans, otherwise yes, the frontal RCS would not vary much from an Su27, and no, there would be little point doing much further to lower frontal RCS.

Maybe we just cut the pretense and call it an Su27 rebuild with some neato updates, rather than a moderised redesign which is sorta ready to mix it up with LockMart 5th-gens?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2018, 13:25
by fbw
Elemental- I’m not exactly sure what your argument is here. I certainly never stated anything about the RCS of the Su-35. I am certainly sceptical about Russian claims about RCS reduction on the Su-35. And yes, I agree with you 100% that the first step they should have than would be to employ a blocker if they truly planned on lowering the RCS of the Su-35.

Simply put, even if they took steps to increase % of composites in airframe and RAM, the best comparison would be HAVE GLASS treatments in the F-16. With one difference the Su-27 had a large radar signature to start with, exactly how effective would employing composites, RAM, or canopy treatment on that airframe?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2018, 13:38
by element1loop
OK, we agree then, it was just hard to see where you were coming from there--thanks.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2018, 18:28
by fbw
In regard to Russian claims of RCS reduction on the Su-35, they had stated that the inlet and engine face had been treated with a ferromagnetic RAM using a robotic spray system besides the use of ceramics on nozzle. That, besides the greater use of composites and treated canopy. At the time they presented this in in a conference in London in 2003, they claimed significant reduction in RCS over the legacy Su-27.

The RCS of the Su-27 is claimed to be 10-15m2 (why that number is bandied about and veracity of it, I wouldn't vouch for), and they claimed a reduction of 10-15db for the inlet treatments which would be a roughly 60% reduction in RCS (plus the other improvements). And again, the various numbers thrown about for overall RCS range from 3m2 to .5m2 (basically Mig-21 like on the high end and Super Hornet/ Rafale range on the low end).

So, they did take a number of steps to reduce RCS of the Su-35. Exactly what the outcome of those measures were is a matter of conjecture ( as I'm 82% certain 91% of RCS figures quoted on all manner of aircraft from "sources" are 100% B.S.).

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2018, 18:50
by XanderCrews
Thanks Doge,


doge wrote:Another photo that can see the inside of intake.


Image


cobra321 wrote:. Hence why there is so many pics of the su 57 online, but just ONE with engine face showing. And even that one is suspect.


who would have thought making such broad and generalized statements would turn out to be false? you seem to be a liar. or have a hard time counting to one.

As I said before the "problem" is not the pictures. the Problem is Pictures showing the AIRPLANE for what it is. No amount of photo manipulation or selection will change the Su-57s engineering. It is what it is, and critics are right to point out what they see are problems.

So now that we have established, that the engine face does show. we can go on and on talking about how that doesn't matter because Yf-23 and X-32 which were both rejected have engine faces showing. go on.


cobra321 wrote: But that's normal for the su 57. Constantly under estimating it.


stop projecting your inferiority complex. I thought the Su-57 would do far better than it has in a lot of ways and its come up woefully short. Russia failed. its amazing to me that people can take a look at the claims made 8 years ago and still defend this thing. at the very least some realism would be nice.

Early on we knew that Russia was going to face some tough problems and was going to have to be very careful and balanced with the issues they were going to encounter. Beyond just money, you also have a new build airplane from a country that has done a "from scratch" new build airplane in 40 years. Or nearly a century if you want to count Russia as not a part of the USSR. They were going to have some issues. It was a matter of how well they dealt with them. And simply put, the "show stoppers" did indeed stop the show. And I was wrong because I thought Russia would be able to get passed them. So I'm guilty of overestimating them. I knew they would "struggle but come out in the end". And I was wrong


Not even F-35 fanboys are claiming its going to cost 30 million a piece like the good old early days, but a Russian Fanboi will tell you every picture you see is fake, and claim that since no other "real pictures" exist that must be reality by default. your lying eyes are wrong, and you must be underestimating it. 12 units is a huge success...

This program under delivered MASSIVELY.

I really hope Cobra/KGB comes back to reality, because this is starting to feel like youtube levels of commentary. F-16.net is professionals and people who look to come to mutual understandings. And Although there is disagreement there is usually mutual respect, and not a desire to lie and fabricate and Im watching Cobra/KGB lie and fabricate and spam tired and already disproven pet theories from other forums.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2018, 19:28
by sprstdlyscottsmn
No blockers in the Su-35? Dang, I wanted to believe that plane had blockers. SHornet gets blockers and semi serpentine ducting.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2018, 21:01
by zhangmdev
Found some image of Su-57 static test model actually shows the shape of the intake, which is extraordinary.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2018, 21:20
by cobra321
fbw wrote:
cobra321 wrote:
vilters wrote:Yep, the F-57 fan blades/engine radar blocker is so stealthy that it is nowhere to be seen. :devil:


So that clears things up. Now after 8 years, there is none - zero pics showing the engine face of the su 57. But I am under no illusions that someone will eventually get down there at an airshow and find some engine face. Same would happen with YF-23. So my diagram still stands.


" Fat way to ID a bogey. The Su-57 isn't finished, harping on the RCS of what are essentially test aircraft shows your immaturity and lack of intelligence.


At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul-"
KGB, do yourself a favor.... stop posting.


Image

FBW is simply a shrieking Russophobe who blows a gasket every time Sukhoi, the Duma , the preseident or the ministry defense of Russia says anything. In case you thought this had anything to do with me, he just recently told another poster on another forum in the su 57 thread to stop posting.

the IGV of an F-15
make the F-15 intake
as does the F-18
-FBW


The F-15 or any other 4th gen non stealth aircraft is about as relevant to the discussion as a Boeing 777 if we were discussing supersonics and the Concorde vs the Tupolev Tu-144. Anyone with any inkling to compare the F-15 with the su 57 has lost all judgment and credibity and should never be taken seriously again.

Image

Image

Lets just take ONE part of the su 57 and compare it to the F-22, nevermind the F-15, to see if what is more advanced and better for RCS.

Not only are the vertical stabilizers on the su 57 angled to integrate into the design of the whole aircraft for stealth, they are made of COMPOSITE material. Carbon impregnated polyurethane foam, carbon-loaded silicone and neoprene, and iron-loaded urethane are among material combinations known to soak up microwave energy that Sukhoi used for the composite components of the su 57.

The all-moving stabilizers are much smaller than the F-22's fixed fins and movable rudders. The vertical tails replace the airbrake, moving symmetrically to increase drag with minimal pitch moment. Yet look at the F-15 with its 90 degree metal tails and old school air brake. :bang:


Image

Here is what I said one page ago (pay attention XanderCrews)

But I am under no illusions that [b]someone will eventually get down there at an airshow and find some engine face.[/b] Just like the YF-23


Here is yet ANOTHER pic that gives the ILLUSION that you are looking directly straight head on into the jet. Clearly you are NOT. You cant even see the other engine. So the same thing applies here. You are not looking head on into the jet. So no. That jet engine is NOT sitting directly behind that intake.

And for the millionth time, the buzz about the intake of the su 57 early on was that it wasn't stealth because 100'% of the engine wasn't covered. (that's nonsense too. Stealth does not mean "achieved invisibility". Then the F-22 wouldn't be stealth either)

FBW can mutter on about his poll models all day, the point is, that the YF-23 and X-32 production models were NOT going to have 100% of their engine face covered. It would be impossible with that kind of design.

Here is Australia Air powers amended 2012 acessement. They are critical of some parts of the su 57. But they are not concerned about the intake.

An extensive qualitative analysis of RCS reduction shaping feature design in the T-50 aircraft was performed in 2010. That analysis yielded the following observations, cited here for convenience2:

-The forward fuselage is closest in general configuration to the YF-23, especially in the chining, cockpit placement, and hump aft of the cockpit canopy, although the blending of the upper forward fuselage into the upper carapace is more gradual.

-There are important differences from the YF-23. The chine curvature design rule is purely convex, like the chine design on the F-22A. The nose height is greater, to accommodate an AESA with a much larger aperture than that intended for the YF-23 or F-22A.

-If flare spots are properly controlled by the application of materials and serrated edge treatments around the canopy, and a good bandpass radome design using a frequency selective multilayer laminate is employed, the shaping related RCS contribution of the forward fuselage in the S/X/Ku-bands will be similar to that observed with the F-22A, YF-23 or F-35.

-The edge aligned trapezoidal main engine inlets are similar in configuration to the F-22, but with important differences. The inlet aspect ratio is different, and the corners are truncated in a manner similar to the YF-23. If properly treated with leading edge inserts and inlet tunnel absorbent materials, the inlet design should yield similar RCS to its US counterparts.

-The placement of the engine centrelines well above the inlet centroids, in the manner of the YF-23, results in an inlet tunnel S-bend in the vertical plane. Sukhoi have not disclosed whether an inlet blocker will be employed. The use of an S-bend in the PAK-FA would permit an increase in the number of surface bounces further increasing attenuation and reducing RCS.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2018, 21:41
by botsing
cobra321 wrote:Here is yet ANOTHER pic that gives the ILLUSION that you are looking directly straight head on into the jet. Clearly you are NOT. You cant even see the other engine. So the same thing applies here.

Look! I found another stealth airplane!!

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2018, 22:52
by XanderCrews
cobra321 wrote:
Image

Here is what I said one page ago (pay attention XanderCrews)

But I am under no illusions that [b]someone will eventually get down there at an airshow and find some engine face.[/b] Just like the YF-23


Here is yet ANOTHER pic that gives the ILLUSION that you are looking directly straight head on into the jet. Clearly you are NOT. You cant even see the other engine. So the same thing applies here. You are not looking head on into the jet. So no. That jet engine is NOT sitting directly behind that intake.


Its standing right next to the nose.

You think if the camera man takes a sidestep to direct front it magically disappears before his eye? -- No it means he gets to see 2 engine faces like little glowing eyes 8)


And for the millionth time, the buzz about the intake of the su 57 early on was that it wasn't stealth because 100'% of the engine wasn't covered. (that's nonsense too. Stealth does not mean "achieved invisibility". Then the F-22 wouldn't be stealth either)


I just saw it as lazy engineering and a bad sign, and its going to increase the signature? yes. Youre welcome to try and explain that away:


Image

You continue to attribute positions that people aren't taking. speaking at them instead of listening to them. This isn't a converstation, its a chance for you to use your one size fits all reposts.


FBW can mutter on about his poll models all day, the point is, that the YF-23 and X-32 production models were NOT going to have 100% of their engine face covered. It would be impossible with that kind of design.


Indeed, And both designs were rejected. Is showing engine face an automatic deal killer? no. will it result you getting the contract? also no. Hmm. But its good enough in Russia.

I mean you folks realize why the X-32 had its fan where it did right? Because of the STOVL requirement and Boeing going with Direct Lift. Its not there to be stealthy-- Its there because thats the only way they could meet the requirement. They had to pick between lose signature, or automatic disqualification, so they picked lose signature. You guys are pointing to a rejected compromise disaster that couldn't meet specs, as a positive example to follow and emulate

:doh: :doh:

Image

*Laughs in rejected STOVL Compromises embraced by Russians*

As I said. Disappointment. There are many people Ive spoken to, and a few people even here whom I trust who have also rejected the Su-57. They say at Best its a super hornet, and thats a real compliment. Super Stealthy F-35 and F-22 killer? Not in the slightest.


You seem to be both flipping out about the engine fan and insisting its not showing while simultaneously. insisting its ok for the engine face to show... This is logical somehow.

Russia Botched this. But the Fanbois hitched their wagons to it, so here we are

cobra321 wrote:FBW is simply a shrieking Russophobe who blows a gasket every time Sukhoi, the Duma , the preseident or the ministry defense of Russia says anything. In case you thought this had anything to do with me, he just recently told another poster on another forum in the su 57 thread to stop posting.



You were right to inform on him here then, tovarich. That is good snitch work, irrelevant, but most good. He probably has a hard time with lying, which is why he gets so unhappy. Good Comrades like yourself suffer no such scruples. Can you recommend a good reeducation camp for him here? where did you learn?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 25 Jul 2018, 02:15
by element1loop
fbw wrote:In regard to Russian claims of RCS reduction on the Su-35, they had stated that the inlet and engine face had been treated with a ferromagnetic RAM using a robotic spray system besides the use of ceramics on nozzle. That, besides the greater use of composites and treated canopy. At the time they presented this in in a conference in London in 2003, they claimed significant reduction in RCS over the legacy Su-27.

The RCS of the Su-27 is claimed to be 10-15m2 (why that number is bandied about and veracity of it, I wouldn't vouch for), and they claimed a reduction of 10-15db for the inlet treatments which would be a roughly 60% reduction in RCS (plus the other improvements). And again, the various numbers thrown about for overall RCS range from 3m2 to .5m2 (basically Mig-21 like on the high end and Super Hornet/ Rafale range on the low end).

So, they did take a number of steps to reduce RCS of the Su-35. Exactly what the outcome of those measures were is a matter of conjecture ( as I'm 82% certain 91% of RCS figures quoted on all manner of aircraft from "sources" are 100% B.S.).


RAM on a tunnel interior will reduce the indirect reverberant secondary reflections detected at shallow angles to the intake's long-axis, but if nearly head-to-head geometry the blade strobes will still become quite obvious early as the range shrinks.

So I doubt the (alleged 10 to 15 db) RCS reduction to the direct fan-face blade returns, themselves, will help much here. Especially against a sensitive AESA. Wide open formations of F-35 are still likely to spot the direct RAM attenuated blade strobes fairly quickly. As soon as an AESA gets that sniff the jigg is up, the AESA will focus energy there (find it, ID it--almost immediately).

The RAM application is nice, and necessary, but the Su35 definitely needed to block the view of the blades themselves--but didn't.

No cigar.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 25 Jul 2018, 04:52
by cobra321
HUGE news for the su 57

Congress Officially Blocks F-35 Shipments To Turkey After Mattis Pleads Not To.
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-07- ... pleads-not

Russia and Turkey will likely get down to business on this right away.

Image

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 25 Jul 2018, 05:45
by Corsair1963
cobra321 wrote:HUGE news for the su 57

Congress Officially Blocks F-35 Shipments To Turkey After Mattis Pleads Not To.
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-07- ... pleads-not

Russia and Turkey will likely get down to business on this right away.

Image



You need to cut back on the Cool-Aid.......... :?

Lockheed Martin: F-35 Production on Track Even as Congress Mulls Barring Turkey’s Participation

By: Ben Werner

July 24, 2018 3:20 PM

The stealthy F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter won’t be overly exposed to cost pressures if international customer Turkey is barred by Congress from taking ownership of its aircraft, Lockheed Martin’s senior leadership said while discussing second quarter financial results with Wall Street analysts during a Tuesday conference call..........

https://news.usni.org/2018/07/24/35291#more-35291

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 25 Jul 2018, 06:03
by popcorn
I really, really hope Russia and Turkey pour billions and billions into this thing. Seriously.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 25 Jul 2018, 06:06
by Corsair1963
popcorn wrote:I really, really hope Russia and Turkey pour billions and billions into this thing. Seriously.




LOL :lmao: That would be my wish too......

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 25 Jul 2018, 06:13
by XanderCrews
[quote="cobra321"]HUGE news for the su 57

Congress Officially Blocks F-35 Shipments To Turkey After Mattis Pleads Not To.
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-07- ... pleads-not

Russia and Turkey will likely get down to business on this right away.

[/quote]

No and no because its a temporary hold according to your own article.

If there were 15 steps to Turkey getting the Su-57 instead of F-35. We are not even on step 2 yet.

Turkey Would not be so stupid, and if they are, they deserve everything they get.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 25 Jul 2018, 06:14
by XanderCrews
element1loop wrote:
fbw wrote:In regard to Russian claims of RCS reduction on the Su-35, they had stated that the inlet and engine face had been treated with a ferromagnetic RAM using a robotic spray system besides the use of ceramics on nozzle. That, besides the greater use of composites and treated canopy. At the time they presented this in in a conference in London in 2003, they claimed significant reduction in RCS over the legacy Su-27.

The RCS of the Su-27 is claimed to be 10-15m2 (why that number is bandied about and veracity of it, I wouldn't vouch for), and they claimed a reduction of 10-15db for the inlet treatments which would be a roughly 60% reduction in RCS (plus the other improvements). And again, the various numbers thrown about for overall RCS range from 3m2 to .5m2 (basically Mig-21 like on the high end and Super Hornet/ Rafale range on the low end).

So, they did take a number of steps to reduce RCS of the Su-35. Exactly what the outcome of those measures were is a matter of conjecture ( as I'm 82% certain 91% of RCS figures quoted on all manner of aircraft from "sources" are 100% B.S.).


RAM on a tunnel interior will reduce the indirect reverberant secondary reflections detected at shallow angles to the intake's long-axis, but if nearly head-to-head geometry the blade strobes will still become quite obvious early as the range shrinks.

So I doubt the (alleged 10 to 15 db) RCS reduction to the direct fan-face blade returns, themselves, will help much here. Especially against a sensitive AESA. Wide open formations of F-35 are still likely to spot the direct RAM attenuated blade strobes fairly quickly. As soon as an AESA gets that sniff the jigg is up, the AESA will focus energy there (find it, ID it--almost immediately).

The RAM application is nice, and necessary, but the Su35 definitely needed to block the view of the blades themselves--but didn't.

No cigar.


Tovarich, Tovarich, Have you not learned that if the Flanker NEEDED these things, it would have them? if it doesn't have them. It must not need them! :doh: Or it would happen. You can no poke in my logic. For it is perfekt oval of logik

Russia failing at the basics?! Hold on, let me sit down!

Russia still hasn't figured out airplanes aren't like Tanks. These take finesse, and you can't leave key parts off them and expect them to work :mrgreen:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 25 Jul 2018, 06:16
by Corsair1963
I doubt anybody in Turkey would favor the Su-57 over the F-35. This is nothing but internal politics......

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 25 Jul 2018, 06:18
by XanderCrews
Corsair1963 wrote:I doubt anybody in Turkey would favor the Su-57 over the F-35. This is nothing but internal politics......



no no this is "HUGE"

This isn't going to be like the other Su-57 hype you've been hearing for years that turn out to not be true. This time the hype is true! Study the Cartoon!

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 25 Jul 2018, 06:25
by Corsair1963
Turkey has "NO" interest in the Su-57... :doh:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 25 Jul 2018, 06:47
by element1loop
:)

So ....... Su57 kaput ........Su'35' no go re RCS .....


It would have been a good thing if they had committed to say, 100 x Su57 or so, as that's them done for 30 to 40 years, of not much poke. But now they have an opportunity to do something else in 10 to 15 years, which is not necessarily as relatively good.

So, full circle, what are the realistic options for them in a decade or two? It seems to be a question of how deep their pockets are, and who will partner with them. Stuff it, that stuff just gets political. Wait and see time.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 25 Jul 2018, 14:59
by mixelflick
The point about Russian not understanding you can't build a stealth aircraft like a tank is..... insightful. And it may explain their inability to produce aircraft with such tolerances needed for stealth. The more I think about it, the more likely this is a big factor in the SU-57 being so far behind schedule.

You've got an entire industrial base and aircraft development industry which over many decades prided itself on building aircraft like tanks. Yet in the era of stealth, that's no longer an option. Produce a few examples that are stealth? Maybe. Mass produce them at reasonable cost?

Unlikely..

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 25 Jul 2018, 15:43
by cobra321
Corsair1963 wrote:Turkey has "NO" interest in the Su-57... :doh:



Wrong.

Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s administration might purchase Russian fighter jets instead of American planes, a top Turkish official for arms procurement said Wednesday.

"I wouldn’t name specific aircraft models, but I can say that negotiations with other partners on these technical issues are underway,” said Ismail Demir, the head of the Undersecreteriat for Defense Industries.

That statement follows a report last month in Turkish media that Erdogan might look to buy Russian Su-57 fighters, instead of the Lockheed Martin F-35. That would be a significant escalation of military cooperation between a member of NATO and Russia, as Erdogan is also in the process of purchasing S-400s, a Russian-made anti-aircraft system, despite the potential for undermining NATO cooperation and violating U.S. sanctions on Russia.

"Now our negotiations with Russia are not limited only to the S-400 issue and dialogue on other technical themes is underway,” Demir told a Turkish TV station.

“Are we going to depend on the U.S. again? When we have been demanding from them for years, the answer that has been given to us is: The [U.S.] Congress is not allowing. We are tired of this,” Erdogan said Monday. “Russia has responded to our offer with a pretty alluring offer. They said they would even get into a joint production. And with respect to loans, they have offered us pretty good loan terms. Right now, we are running this process as this.”

The point about Russian not understanding you can't build a stealth aircraft like a tank is..... insightful. And it may explain their inability to produce aircraft with such tolerances needed for stealth. The more I think about it, the more likely this is a big factor in the SU-57 being so far behind schedule.

You've got an entire industrial base and aircraft development industry which over many decades prided itself on building aircraft like tanks. Yet in the era of stealth, that's no longer an option. Mass produce them at reasonable cost?

Unlikely..


Umm Russia owns the fastest jet in service today and the most maneuverable jet in service and you are saying that their aircraft are like tanks ?

The su 57 won the design competition in 2002. The jet is going to be in service in 2018 . The F-22 won the competition in 1991 and went into service in 2005. The Sukhoi only took 1-2 years longer than the F-22.

This idea that Russia cant do tolerances is just laughable. You don't think tolerances are a requirement in their closed loop rocket engines ? Or the glonass system ? or the air defense systems ?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 25 Jul 2018, 16:38
by white_lightning35
cobra321 wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Turkey has "NO" interest in the Su-57... :doh:



Umm Russia owns the fastest jet in service today and the most maneuverable jet in service and you are saying that their aircraft are like tanks ?

The su 57 won the design competition in 2002. The jet is going to be in service in 2018 . The F-22 won the competition in 1991 and went into service in 2005. The Sukhoi only took 1-2 years longer than the F-22.

This idea that Russia cant do tolerances is just laughable. You don't think tolerances are a requirement in their closed loop rocket engines ? Or the glonass system ? or the air defense systems ?


Lol still so childishly holding on the same few topics. Do you not understand what the difference between a fast jet and a useful jet is? The Russians have been proven to be able to build very fast airplanes... that break all the time and end up being failures compared to Western jets.

And I'm not sure which is worse: the fact that the Russians only have 12 planes, or that they're going to declare the SU-57 ready for service, with 12 planes. :doh:

Face it, mother Russia is no longer great, comrade. Your claims to fame are cold war era leftovers that are slowly withering away.

P.s plz don't send me to one of your gulags for this, even though those are finally something the Russians can build that is world class. :cheers:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 25 Jul 2018, 16:52
by disconnectedradical
When F-22 was in service there was more than 40 planes. There is 12 planes now for Su-57, how is it "in service"?

cobra321 (also known as KGB) got banned on Key Pubs (a big accomplishment seeing how hard it usually is for people to be banned there) so now he moved here to spread his bullsh*t.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 25 Jul 2018, 17:48
by XanderCrews
cobra321 wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Turkey has "NO" interest in the Su-57... :doh:



Wrong.

Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s administration might purchase Russian fighter jets instead of American planes, a top Turkish official for arms procurement said Wednesday.

"I wouldn’t name specific aircraft models, but I can say that negotiations with other partners on these technical issues are underway,” said Ismail Demir, the head of the Undersecreteriat for Defense Industries.

That statement follows a report last month in Turkish media that Erdogan might look to buy Russian Su-57 fighters, instead of the Lockheed Martin F-35. That would be a significant escalation of military cooperation between a member of NATO and Russia, as Erdogan is also in the process of purchasing S-400s, a Russian-made anti-aircraft system, despite the potential for undermining NATO cooperation and violating U.S. sanctions on Russia.

"Now our negotiations with Russia are not limited only to the S-400 issue and dialogue on other technical themes is underway,” Demir told a Turkish TV station.

“Are we going to depend on the U.S. again? When we have been demanding from them for years, the answer that has been given to us is: The [U.S.] Congress is not allowing. We are tired of this,” Erdogan said Monday. “Russia has responded to our offer with a pretty alluring offer. They said they would even get into a joint production. And with respect to loans, they have offered us pretty good loan terms. Right now, we are running this process as this.”



Call me when it actually happens. You'll have to understand after a decade of Su-57 broken promises we aren't going to pop the vodka spiked kool-aide at yet another rumor


Umm Russia owns the fastest jet in service today and the most maneuverable jet in service and you are saying that their aircraft are like tanks ?


Yep thats exactly what I'm saying. Russia doesn't prioritize like the west does. Lrrp gave you detailed paragraphs about how Russia can't seem to get the basics in a lot of ways with even regular stuff. Radar Blockers for example seem basic, but here we are.

as for most maneuverable? LOL give me a break russia doesn't have F-22s. Fastest? who cares? the West gave up pure speed a long time in favor of other more useful things and doesn't find itself in need of interceptors anyway.

the simple fact is that Russian Doctrine is different from the west. and they don't emphasize the same things. This is been witnessed and borne out constantly with Russian tactics and strategic thought. Why are you trying to force Russia into a box it doesn't belong in komrade to make it more like the west other than your own ego?

Much like you the Russians don't sweat things like factual details. Things that would be deal breakers in the west are "good enough, we can always add it later" (if later ever comes) in Russia.

Look at the Su-57. They aren't waiting to put it into service until it gets the engines its supposed to have right? Later Komrade, Later. And then we wonder why they end up behind... when will we build more Su-57? Later Tovarich. When will we build the proper engine? Later Tovarich. When will we have a replacement that doesn't have its origin in the 1970s? Later Tovarich. When will Su-35 get Radar Blockers? Later Tovarish. Ive been waiting for the USSR and Now Russia to achieve now what always comes later my entire life.

That X-32 you were holding up as an example is considered a joke in the US and failed to win a single order, but you'll point to it as a good example to emulate. Look at this garbage failure of a design guys!! Thats like Russia's 21st century uber fighter! errr Ok.

Just own it. Russia isn't in the finesse weapons business. Which is fine when it comes to tanks, arty, small arms, it just doesn't work as well on sophisticated aircraft. Does Russia care? no. do you? yes deeply for some reason.

Russia come to a point where it had to evolve a little, they couldn't make planes like tractors, then jets like tractors, they finally had to make airplanes like airplanes. And they did a pretty good job of that with Flanker and Fulcrum, but the west was already ahead. and SHOCKINGLY. TOTAL SHOCK. took an even bigger lead as the USSR collapsed and got delayed even further.

Hell people are even questioning if the US Marines will have the technical know how and care required to keep the F-35B in good shape, Me wondering if Team Komrade which likes to leave things out in blizzards on airfields strewn with FOD might have a rough time of sophisticated gear is somehow not OK? That seems only reasonable.

If Russia has to pick between sophistication and serviceability they pick Serviceability traditionally 9 times out 8

And I'll close this point by pointing out the MASSIVE Differences on aviation safety and the tolerance of risk in the west compared to Russia. Its not even remotely the same. and yet you'll insist Russia is just as safe if not more than the west, More cautious, more calculating, along with the notion that they will be even more sophisticated with no evidence to back any of it up.


The su 57 won the design competition in 2002. The jet is going to be in service in 2018 . The F-22 won the competition in 1991 and went into service in 2005. The Sukhoi only took 1-2 years longer than the F-22.



And F-22 had 40+ units already built and had Production representative engines. You know those same engines the Russians are saying are still years away on Su-57 and its whole dozen units as it runs 2 years later?

pay attention.


This idea that Russia cant do tolerances is just laughable. You don't think tolerances are a requirement in their closed loop rocket engines ? Or the glonass system ? or the air defense systems ?


The idea that you fight anytime someone says something you don't like about Russia further fuels the notion that you are a Keyboard Komrade, and have no sense of objectivity or any truth in you.

Why must you persist in the ideas that Russia must "out west" the West? Why are you so ethnocentric? Russia does and builds things differently with different concepts, tactics, and doctrines. Russians themselves have said many times that they pride themselves on their tough built airplanes that can survive the elements and harsh conditions. The joke was the "Russian build with sledge hammers, and the west builds with scalpels." now youre upset at this?

RUssia: our airplanes are built like tanks!
America: Russian airplanes are built like Tanks!
Cobra/KGB: How dare you say Russian airplanes are built like tanks!!


The funny thing about you KGB/Cobra, is you think you are defending Russia, but youre only defending what you THINK Russia is

youre like don quixote tilting at windmills for a damsel you don't even know LOL

But at least youre lying a lot. So thats nice.


disconnectedradical wrote:When F-22 was in service there was more than 40 planes. There is 12 planes now for Su-57, how is it "in service"?

cobra321 (also known as KGB) got banned on Key Pubs (a big accomplishment seeing how hard it usually is for people to be banned there) so now he moved here to spread his bullsh*t.



I'm sure he won't be long here either. I can't imagine us keeping a liar and fraud that even keypubs discarded.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 25 Jul 2018, 18:12
by mixelflick
"Umm Russia owns the fastest jet in service today and the most maneuverable jet in service and you are saying that their aircraft are like tanks ?

The su 57 won the design competition in 2002. The jet is going to be in service in 2018 . The F-22 won the competition in 1991 and went into service in 2005. The Sukhoi only took 1-2 years longer than the F-22.

This idea that Russia cant do tolerances is just laughable. You don't think tolerances are a requirement in their closed loop rocket engines ? Or the glonass system ? or the air defense systems ?'

That's exactly what I'm saying. Because the fastest and most maneuverable have NOTHING to do with building stealth aircraft and the tolerances needed for such. Is the Mig-31 fast? Sure. SU-35 maneuverable? Yep. Either of those stealth? Nope. Building the fastest and most maneuverable fighters (and that's certainly debatable) does exactly NOTHING to give you the know how necessary for building a stealth aircraft.

The SU-57 is in service this year? Whereabouts?? Because from what I can see, less than a dozen flying prototype models is a long way from "in service". But let's say for the sake of argument that you're right. There are a dozen SU-57's "in service". That means they're combat capable too, correct? All the work on the engines, avionics, sensors and weapons is done. And the tactics have been developed via integrating with your 4th gen birds is there too, right? Exactly what exercises and foreign deployments has your SU-57 participated in? It's not in service broski, no matter how hard you wish it was.

Look, it wasn't a bad first stab at things. But as it stands today, the SU-57 brings marginal improvements only to the SU--35, which is precisely why the SU-57 won't be mass produced. As far as the Turks go, let them shop for and ideally buy into the program. They're a fairly professional air arm, and because of that they'll come to the same conclusions the Indians did.

Face it: The SU-57 is riddled with bugs, several of which render it a non-starter. Come talk to me when you have a few hundred in service, with several deployments, established tactics and a RCS something better than a Super Hornet. Until then, you have nothing.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 25 Jul 2018, 19:24
by mixelflick
COBRA321, indulge me for a moment..

Let's pretend for a moment that the shoe's on the other foot, shall we? What would you think of an F-22 program that had fewer than a dozen flyable prototypes, yet claimed IOC this year?

Furthermore, what if these F-22's were flying with an inferior engine? As for the new engines, by your own account those could take until 2025 until they're ready? What if we kept throwing out IOC dates etc that constantly slipped? Every. Single. One. And what if our F-22's hadn't made a single operational deployment? Or if you'd like, made a 2 DAY deployment to Syria?? And what if the partner nation that was helping to fund our F-22 quit, citing shoddy workmanship and inferior stealth??

What if the USAF came out and said we had a world beater, but nah - we're not going to build more than 12. Because that's what you do when your main adversary already has around 400 stealth aircraft (fighters and bombers), with oodles more rolling off the production line.

Would you think the F-22 program a success? Would you say the Americans and their F-22 were credible??

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 25 Jul 2018, 20:20
by juretrn
disconnectedradical wrote:cobra321 (also known as KGB) got banned on Key Pubs (a big accomplishment seeing how hard it usually is for people to be banned there) so now he moved here to spread his bullsh*t.

They now have wewuzkangz, so that balances out.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 25 Jul 2018, 20:48
by SpudmanWP
mixelflick wrote:The su 57 won the design competition in 2002. The jet is going to be in service in 2018 . The F-22 won the competition in 1991 and went into service in 2005. The Sukhoi only took 1-2 years longer than the F-22.


The difference between the US definition of "In Service" and the Russian "In Service" are worlds apart.

Russian "In Service" is basically the first "non-test/development" plane out of the factory irrespective of missing features (non-final engine, avionics, etc).

The US "In-Service (ie IOC)" comes after the DoD fully develops the plane for the spec, stands up it's training wings, determines & tests how to use the plane operationally (ie IOT&E), stands up an operational wing, trains that wing, and then does some verification deployments.

Then and ONLY then will the DoD consider that plane for IOC status.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 25 Jul 2018, 21:56
by marsavian
It is really incontrovertible that the Russians have just fallen behind in this stealth cycle of aircraft. There are over 400 F-22 and F-35 flying and every one of them can see any Su-57 before it sees them on radar as admitted to by the Duma representative. Not only that the F-22/F-35 are more useful in that they are operationally capable against SAMs too. The Russians have basically tried to sugarcoat it but by comparing the cost of Su-57 to Su-30/Su-35 in limiting production they have admitted that Su-57 is no more than a slightly stealthier more advanced flanker but not VLO enough to be operationally useful against F-22/F-35/SAMs.

The fact is they are now waiting for the new engines to step up production not because that will magically change the stealth but because it will really change the intercept kinematics by adding F-22 level supercruise to the flight envelope so it becomes more potent and flexible than a standard flanker in intercept mode. They will tinker with it to try and make it better but only because they want their traditional customers to buy it from them but they know they lost the 5th gen war by talking now about mythical 6th gen. Just like the F-16 made the once ubiquitous Mig-21 obsolete the F-35 is going to do the same with Fulcrum/Flanker and leave Su-57 at a severe combat disadvantage.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 25 Jul 2018, 22:04
by milosh
Su-35 is dirt cheap fighter with decent service life and nice sensors even some kind of sensor fussion is official mentioned. But noticable RCS reduction I doubt it, it is surely smaller target then Su-27 (it have lot of composite, and better build airframe).

In fact if you ask me, MiG-35 could have lot more RCS reduction then Su-35, for example radar (planar MESA) have RAM sponge, airframe looks better build (higher tolerances) and it look like using similar black intakes as Tu-160 and we know that paint is used on Tu-160 to reduce intake RCS (graphite I think).

marsavian wrote:The fact is they are now waiting for the new engines to step up production not because that will magically change the stealth


I think new engine is very important for Su-57 stealth. For example stealthy nozzle is developed for new engine not for 117. New engine have IGV which probable act as radar blocker, 117 doesn't have that, and they said couple of times new engine is cooler then 117.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 26 Jul 2018, 05:49
by element1loop
cobra321 wrote: ... 'And with respect to loans, they have offered us pretty good loan terms.” ...


Riiiiiight, yeah ... Erdogan needs a loan .. to buy Su-Sensible™. Why is that? Suddenly can't afford fighters on Turkey's own dime?

A) State finances imploding?
B) Inflation exploding?
C) Lira plunging?
D) All of the above?

Was Washington offering sweet loan-inducements to Erdogan, to buy LM F-35A/Bs?

Maybe Turkey can pay Moscow with palm oil, or olive oil?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 26 Jul 2018, 18:20
by cobra321
I've never said anything bad about the F-22.

We all normally like and respect each others fighter jets. From east to west. Even throughout the cold war. For the most part, we still do. Everyone talks about the positives and negatives of each design. They are works of art.

But something changed with the su 57. Something is different. The manifest mob hysteria to jeer this jet is just nothing we've ever seen before. Every single statement from Sukhoi or the Russian federation regarding the su 57 is over analyzed and twisted to put it in the most negative light possible. Any design feature that is a departure from the cookie cutter 5th gen orthodoxy (see Turkey, S.Korea, India , Japan, China or any other 5th gen rendering) is automatically a stealth deal breaker and makes it worse than a 4th gen.

We have members of the military aviation forum underworld, who are dedicated full time , to degrading this jet from a technical perspective.(ActionJackson is the worst propagandist of them all) Recently he pumped out a new alleged problem with the design and of course, China did it better on the J-20. But this time they went a step further & said that Iran had done it better on its fake 5th gen cardboard prototype ! And we are supposed to believe that this is objective analysis !

Image

Total fabrications & misinformation are pushed through mainstream media on the su 57. The National Interest, Business Insider and The Diplomat all wrote articles saying that the weapons of the jet don't fit inside and will be hung from the wings. Then there was the complete twaddle about the vertical stabilizers. The 2 phase engine program and initial 12 production units have been known since 2011 yet now, the 2 phase engine is couched as some sort of failure. It is just insane.

No corrections get issued for these blatant counter factuals. Questioning or pointing out these errors is tantamount to trolling.

If Japan built this jet instead of its ugly prototype the discourse would be the exact opposite. I think the US side sees the F-22 as its trophy for winning the cold war. And no matter what Russia does, it can never have one. It can never have a 5th gen stealth jet. This runs deep and has to be a cultural thing and I think that's it. Nobody cares about China's 5th gen

Image

Image

And it continues

PENCE TO ERDOGAN: RELEASE PASTOR OR PREPARE FOR CONSEQUENCES
PENCE SAYS U.S. TO SANCTION TURKEY IF PASTOR NOT RELEASED: AP
PENCE THREATENS `SIGNIFICANT SANCTIONS' ON TURKEY

Turkey Blasts Pence/Trump Threats: "Noone Dictates [To] Turkey"

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-07- ... t-released

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 26 Jul 2018, 18:34
by fbw
I’ve never said anything bad about the F-22.

We all normally like and respect each others fighter jets. From east to west. Even throughout the cold war. For the most part, we still do. Everyone talks about the positives and negatives of each design. They are works of art.


Cobra/KGB/Pierre Sprey- come now share some of your true thoughts on the F-22, highly amusing, and as accurate as all your other musings. We can share some greatest hits of your theories, factoids, and analysis of the F-22.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 26 Jul 2018, 19:49
by mixelflick
The point being is would be preposterous for you (or anyone) to maintain the F-22 was any kind of a war ready aircraft (provided F-22 was where PAK FA is now). People are decidedly critical of the PAK FA (and not F-22, SU-35 or other designs) because the PAK FA's developmental timeline stands in stark contrast to the official announcements (like it's combat proven, IOC now and "too good" to put in mass production).

Perhaps if Russia came out and instead said, "PAK FA is experiencing unanticipated developmental delays. The engines aren't ready. The avionics aren't ready and the weapons aren't ready - so we're just going to suspend its IOC until they are". That'd be a lot better/more accurate and truthful vs. stating "it's a stealthy F-22 killer, and in fact is so good we're just going to morph it into a 6th gen bird.."

When you make statements like that, you lose all credibility...

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 26 Jul 2018, 19:50
by XanderCrews
cobra321 wrote:But something changed with the su 57. Something is different. The manifest mob hysteria to jeer this jet is just nothing we've ever seen before.


Image

Never heard of the F-35?

You should have seen the Super Hornet in the late 1990s. This is nothing new. Youre taking the criticism everything gets in the age of the internet as something new and somehow never been seen before and different and rooted in nationalism.

You must have very little experience in these matters.

Every single statement from Sukhoi or the Russian federation regarding the su 57 is over analyzed and twisted to put it in the most negative light possible.


So like the F-35?

You for example also tried to compare the F-22 selection and IOC vs the Pakfa and Su-57 based on false equivalents and leaving out key details. That's disingenuous at best, and a lie at worse. Several people took you to task on the differences.

Has nothing to do with nationalism, and everything to do with you being low info, and not being able to fool others who know what they speak of.


We have members of the military aviation forum underworld, who are dedicated full time , to degrading this jet from a technical perspective.(ActionJackson is the worst propagandist of them all) Recently he pumped out a new alleged problem with the design and of course, China did it better on the J-20. But this time they went a step further & said that Iran had done it better on its fake 5th gen cardboard prototype ! And we are supposed to believe that this is objective analysis !


I have no idea who that is, And I don't care. Can we talk about the things this forum is talking about? staying on topic and talking about facts instead of people you don't like?

This thread is not your diary, go blog or facebook. belly ache somewhere else. Nothing more boring than people going on about their exes.

No corrections get issued for these blatant counter factuals. Questioning or pointing out these errors is tantamount to trolling.


If your looking for sympathy after all the accusations and nationalism you leveled on anyone who disagreed or had the nerve to bring up facts you didn't like, you won't get any from me here. Doubt anyone else either.


uh oh... wait for it... oh no:

If Japan built this jet instead of its ugly prototype the discourse would be the exact opposite. I think the US side sees the F-22 as its trophy for winning the cold war. And no matter what Russia does, it can never have one. It can never have a 5th gen stealth jet. This runs deep and has to be a cultural thing and I think that's it.


Oh boy!!!

Hey look there it is again. Nationalism combined with opinion combined with hypotheticals, combined with insult.

And you wonder why no one respects your posts, and chalk you up to being a troll??

I guess Russia not being able to produce an F119 class engine for Su-57 is rooted in American culturalism... Come on man

Su-57 fell below even Russian Expectations, so they are cutting their losses. Its simply not worth the cost, and opportunity cost for what they would get. And thus they are pretty much done with it. By your own logic, Whatever Decision Russia makes is best, so this has little to do with American Culturalism. Even Russia is basically saying the Su-57 is not what they hoped. The end. Why can't you respect this Russian decision? Tovarich?

Nobody cares about China's 5th gen


huh you just said Actionhjackson mentioned it above there? And this is an Su-57 thread.

Not even you can even keep track of all your lies and distortions. :doh:


And it continues

PENCE TO ERDOGAN: RELEASE PASTOR OR PREPARE FOR CONSEQUENCES
PENCE SAYS U.S. TO SANCTION TURKEY IF PASTOR NOT RELEASED: AP
PENCE THREATENS `SIGNIFICANT SANCTIONS' ON TURKEY

Turkey Blasts Pence/Trump Threats: "Noone Dictates [To] Turkey"

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-07- ... t-released


Once again, stay on Topic. Turkey probably won't get Su-57 but even if it does thats still a ways out, This is not a Turkey thread. You don't need to post every headline you see. thanks though


So it appears that after falling flat on your face with reasonable counter arguments backed by facts from people here, and well explained opinions and analysis, even backed by some first hand accounts; Youve now fallen back on a martyr complex and an emotional appeal using Nationalism and false claims of double standards.

get over yourself. We are not obligated to maintain your illusions and play along with your fabrications. Your emotional appeal has failed.

Su-57 may be a great plane, but youre a horrible Advocate. I couldn't imagine a worse way to plead your case than what you are doing now. you must unbelievably dense if you think that we all can't see through right through your entire trainwreck of a post. Maybe you really have no comprehension of how you are appearing to the people here. Suffice to say we've caught you in several outright lies, and many half truths, which you immediately blame nationalism, bias, or even culture on. The problem is the Su-57 has problems, and youre a liar, that has been caught in several lies already. now you are trying to make emotional appeals.


GROW UP. you don't even acknowledge when you are wrong or incorrect, and instead you double down on the rhetoric and then whine about no one taking you (and by extension Russia, somehow) seriously.

This will be the last post I make where I go quote by quote to break down your lies, untruth, emotional appeals, appeals to authority, and victimhood. The only reason I did it here is so people could see just how ridiculous and absurd your posts really are.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 26 Jul 2018, 19:52
by marsavian
Let's get real, the amount of FUD leveled against the Su-57 is completely mild compared to the mass hysteria leveled against the F-35 for many continuous years where even the POTUS is initially sucked into all the BS and has to be re-educated with the facts before he makes a stupid decision on it. The F-35 has been delayed and had development problems which were all graphically reported on but the initial production variant has now been delivered and by all accounts delivers on all its requirements. The F-22 also delivered to specification and has been delivering its deterrent power all over the world for a decade now.

I don't think anyone in the West is particularly bothered with the Su-57, it does not appear ultra stealthy which its proposed initial foreign customer confirmed , it's not being produced in any volume, it's a bit of an operational irrelevancy when you consider 4000 F-35s are going to be built. This was not the original plan, it was supposed to be produced in higher volumes than 1 a month which is merely factory ticking over volume.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 26 Jul 2018, 20:00
by XanderCrews
marsavian wrote:Let's get real, the amount of FUD leveled against the Su-57 is completely mild compared to the mass hysteria leveled against the F-35 for many continuous years where even the POTUS is initially sucked into all the BS and has to be re-educated with the facts before he makes a stupid decision on it. The F-35 has been delayed and had development problems which were all graphically reported on but the initial production variant has now been delivered and by all accounts delivers on all its requirements.

I don't think anyone in the West is particularly bothered with the Su-57, it does not appear ultra stealthy which its proposed initial foreign customer confirmed , it's not being produced in any volume, it's a bit of an operational irrelevancy when you consider 4000 F-35s are going to be built. This was not the original plan, it was supposed to be produced in higher volumes than 1 a month which is merely factory ticking over volume.


hes trying to be a victim

Su-57 has not even had a fraction of the criticism the F-35 gets in Canada alone LOL its a joke.


the funny thing is that Cobra/KGB keeps thinking if he displays more ignorance in more areas, he somehow gains credibility.

Image

If you don't know what youre talking about, be sure to talk even more about things you know even less about. People are bound to start listening!

Cobra/KGB Plan B: Call them all culturally biased and insult them, to cover up my lies.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 26 Jul 2018, 20:35
by juretrn
Oh no, he's calling the X-2 prototype ugly.
Are you really stooping this low in this "debate"? That's like 5 year-olds arguing.

And if you want an aircraft that's been over analyzed and criticized for the slightest details, look no further than the F-35.
It's an aircraft that triggers Russians, Chinese and people that hate the West in general. It HAS to be crap, because if it's just 10% of what it's said to be, air wars in the future aren't even going to be funny with the scale of roflstomp F-35s will be dishing out.
It also triggers marketing departments of Saab, Dassault, EADS, Sukhoi and Boeing as it threatens to kill their market share completely.
It's just too good for its own sake.

Need I remind you
Image
This is still the predominant opinion of the Average Joe regarding the F-35.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 26 Jul 2018, 20:56
by sprstdlyscottsmn
juretrn wrote:This is still the predominant opinion of the Average Joe regarding the F-35.

That's the truth. I still see people posting that picture, which triggers me into reminding them what an F-16V or F-15SA costs.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 26 Jul 2018, 23:14
by XanderCrews
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
juretrn wrote:This is still the predominant opinion of the Average Joe regarding the F-35.

That's the truth. I still see people posting that picture, which triggers me into reminding them what an F-16V or F-15SA costs.



Bitter Irony all around. years later we are still getting "the F-35 can't dogfight" meme as well.


More Irony, despite claims on an international conspiracy I don't think that many people even have a care about the Su-57-- Not even the Russian MoD.

Image

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 27 Jul 2018, 03:20
by wrightwing
cobra321 wrote:



Not true. Kret has had the whole 5th gen avionics suit done for awhile now.
Image

http://old.kret.com/en/news/3991/



Just a few observations. 1) that link refers to upgraded Su-30s (not even the Su-35.)
2) there's a big difference in marketing terms, and actual sensor fusion/network centric warfare.
3) exactly how many PAK FA aircraft, have operationally representative avionics/software/sensor fusion?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 27 Jul 2018, 06:28
by XanderCrews
project458 wrote:
reported. Nationalist Propaganda is a no go


But, propaganda about the F-35 is allowed right Mr. Meme ?


Just glad to see you agreeing that what he posted was indeed propaganda.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 27 Jul 2018, 07:49
by milosh
marsavian wrote:I don't think anyone in the West is particularly bothered with the Su-57, it does not appear ultra stealthy which its proposed initial foreign customer confirmed , it's not being produced in any volume, it's a bit of an operational irrelevancy when you consider 4000 F-35s are going to be built. This was not the original plan, it was supposed to be produced in higher volumes than 1 a month which is merely factory ticking over volume.


That was what indian media wrote not official, and if you read that text they are talking about 117 engine which serial Su-57 will not have and with 117 it can be consider non stealthy (no radar blocker and no stealth nozzles).

And for Indians Rafale is stealth aircraft:
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0152/ ... 5850234567

that is what IAF commander said earlier so they don't need to buy stealth they already have it :roll:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 27 Jul 2018, 11:09
by juretrn
The MMRCA program has started over 15 years ago, yet IAF still has zero 'medium' combat aircraft.
If that does not tell you Indian defense procurement is a joke...

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 27 Jul 2018, 11:39
by madrat
15 years and its progressed to crayon drawings. That's blazing speed for Indian procurement.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 27 Jul 2018, 14:09
by icemaverick
milosh wrote:
marsavian wrote:I don't think anyone in the West is particularly bothered with the Su-57, it does not appear ultra stealthy which its proposed initial foreign customer confirmed , it's not being produced in any volume, it's a bit of an operational irrelevancy when you consider 4000 F-35s are going to be built. This was not the original plan, it was supposed to be produced in higher volumes than 1 a month which is merely factory ticking over volume.


That was what indian media wrote not official, and if you read that text they are talking about 117 engine which serial Su-57 will not have and with 117 it can be consider non stealthy (no radar blocker and no stealth nozzles).

And for Indians Rafale is stealth aircraft:
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0152/ ... 5850234567

that is what IAF commander said earlier so they don't need to buy stealth they already have it :roll:


That India withdrew from the project and Russia has curbed orders down to tiny numbers speaks volumes. India has access to information that we on this forum don’t. They decided to pass on the Su-57 while spending billions on the Rafale. The Russians themselves obviously don’t have much faith in the platform because even they haven’t committed to significant numbers of aircraft.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 27 Jul 2018, 14:56
by XanderCrews
icemaverick wrote:
milosh wrote:
marsavian wrote:I don't think anyone in the West is particularly bothered with the Su-57, it does not appear ultra stealthy which its proposed initial foreign customer confirmed , it's not being produced in any volume, it's a bit of an operational irrelevancy when you consider 4000 F-35s are going to be built. This was not the original plan, it was supposed to be produced in higher volumes than 1 a month which is merely factory ticking over volume.


That was what indian media wrote not official, and if you read that text they are talking about 117 engine which serial Su-57 will not have and with 117 it can be consider non stealthy (no radar blocker and no stealth nozzles).

And for Indians Rafale is stealth aircraft:
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0152/ ... 5850234567

that is what IAF commander said earlier so they don't need to buy stealth they already have it :roll:


That India withdrew from the project and Russia has curbed orders down to tiny numbers speaks volumes. India has access to information that we on this forum don’t. They decided to pass on the Su-57 while spending billions on the Rafale. The Russians themselves obviously don’t have much faith in the platform because even they haven’t committed to significant numbers of aircraft.



Possible Gross oversimplification, but the Russian economy is awesome, Meaning they choose not to go with Su-57. Or economy not so hot and they would love to have more but can't...

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 27 Jul 2018, 17:43
by XanderCrews
milosh wrote:
that is what IAF commander said earlier so they don't need to buy stealth they already have it :roll:


Maybe he was referencing the fact that Rafale has some stealthy features to it, and a solid avionics/jamming suite as being superior to what the "stealthy" Su-57 can bring?


Thats just my guess as to what he felt

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 27 Jul 2018, 18:31
by cobra321
milosh wrote:
marsavian wrote:I don't think anyone in the West is particularly bothered with the Su-57, it does not appear ultra stealthy which its proposed initial foreign customer confirmed , it's not being produced in any volume, it's a bit of an operational irrelevancy when you consider 4000 F-35s are going to be built. This was not the original plan, it was supposed to be produced in higher volumes than 1 a month which is merely factory ticking over volume.


That was what indian media wrote not official, and if you read that text they are talking about 117 engine which serial Su-57 will not have and with 117 it can be consider non stealthy (no radar blocker and no stealth nozzles).

And for Indians Rafale is stealth aircraft:
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0152/ ... 5850234567

that is what IAF commander said earlier so they don't need to buy stealth they already have it :roll:


That was all pure Indian politcs. It was all annymous IAF officals passing BS to the western defense media. The IAF had nothing to do with the program and wasnt involved.

It is known that Indians love their su 30 mki's. As if they wouldn't want a faster, more powerful longer range stealth version

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 27 Jul 2018, 19:05
by XanderCrews
cobra321 wrote:The IAF had nothing to do with the program and wasnt involved.


So it was never a joint India/Russia program?

It is known that Indians love their su 30 mki's.


Theyve been having issues with them for years now. Pretty well documented and publicized. Again I have to wonder who you think youre fooling.


As if they wouldn't want a faster, more powerful longer range stealth version


Is this about Russia or India?? Because not even the Russians are biting hard on this one.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 27 Jul 2018, 19:54
by botsing
XanderCrews wrote:
cobra321 wrote:The IAF had nothing to do with the program and wasnt involved.


So it was never a joint India/Russia program?

Can't we just have this cobra kid booted?

He is dragging the level of conversion down to some kindergarten level of logic ("my dad is stronger than your dad") and it had its run now, it's no longer fun to watch this trainwreck.

It's hurting to see people invest time and effort into explaining important details, after which this cobra monkey simply puts another turd on it...

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 27 Jul 2018, 20:59
by XanderCrews
botsing wrote:
XanderCrews wrote:
cobra321 wrote:The IAF had nothing to do with the program and wasnt involved.


So it was never a joint India/Russia program?

Can't we just have this cobra kid booted?

He is dragging the level of conversion down to some kindergarten level of logic ("my dad is stronger than your dad") and it had its run now, it's no longer fun to watch this trainwreck.

It's hurting to see people invest time and effort into explaining important details, after which this cobra monkey simply puts another turd on it...



I agree 100 percent. I think its a matter of reporting him a few times before he can be booted. This is slowman level...

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 28 Jul 2018, 15:26
by cobra321
botsing wrote:
XanderCrews wrote:
cobra321 wrote:The IAF had nothing to do with the program and wasnt involved.


So it was never a joint India/Russia program?

Can't we just have this cobra kid booted?

He is dragging the level of conversion down to some kindergarten level of logic ("my dad is stronger than your dad") and it had its run now, it's no longer fun to watch this trainwreck.

It's hurting to see people invest time and effort into explaining important details, after which this cobra monkey simply puts another turd on it...


There's kindergarten level logic going on with the coverage of the su 57 alright, from Business Insider. Mostly from one author who is spreading libelous nonsense.

This has to be the first time that a jet is being heralded as canceled in the very same week that it is going into production. :roll:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Jul 2018, 06:14
by cobra321
lrrpf52 wrote:
cobra321 wrote:
There's kindergarten level logic going on with the coverage of the su 57 alright, from Business Insider. Mostly from one author who is spreading libelous nonsense.

This has to be the first time that a jet is being heralded as canceled in the very same week that it is going into production. :roll:

You might want to contact the Russian Defense Minister to brief him on how his program is to be planned, because he didn't get you-fighter-program-isnt-dead-at-least-not-yet



.



You might want to contact the Russian Defense Minister to brief him on how his program is to be planned, because he didn't get your memo


The Russian defense ministry has ordered 12 new production Sukhoi Su-57 fifth-generation fighters and confirmed next year as the target date for entry-into-service.

Inspecting Sukhoi’s KnAAPO factory in Komsomolsk-upon-Amur in late June, deputy minister Aleksei Krivoruchko told journalists that the Su-57 prototypes had “demonstrated full compliance to the customer’s specification” during flight trials and the overseas deployment.

In early 2019, the Lipetsk 4th Combat Training Center (PSC) will receive two new production Su-57 aircraft. They will be tested by experienced test pilots, then commanders, pilots and technical personnel for winged vehicles will be trained in the center. Also, the "Aircraft Bible" will be created, which describes all the nuances of his work. According to military experts, the fact of the transfer of fighters to the air center of VKS indicates the imminent adoption of the first Russian fighter of the fifth generation for armament.


There is a two-stage system for adopting new aircraft in the air defense system. First serial copies are received by the State Flight Test Center of the Ministry of Defense (GLITS), which is located in the city of Akhtubinsk in the Astrakhan Region. This stage will be completed before the end of this year. After that, the Su-57 will be transferred to the Lipetsk Air Center.

In the 4th Combat Training Center, the Su-57's combat operation will actually begin, the former commander of the 4th Air Force and Air Defense Army, Hero of Russia, Lieutenant-General Valery Gorbenko told Izvestia.

You just took quotes from Borisov and then added some commentary from a War Is Boring hit piece and called it an Interfax article.

Then there's the Pierre Sprey of Russia who called it an expensive toy. He's got nothing on Sprey though. Sprey is the king of anti 5th gen.

are obsolete engines


It was known since 2010 that it was a 2 phase engine program.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Jul 2018, 11:39
by knowan
It might be a difficult context to grasp for some, but such a limited production is effectively the final death blow for the program.

Combine such limited production with the known program problems, Russian Ministry of Defense saying larger production numbers are delayed for many years and India pulling out of the program, claims of the demise of the Su-57 are a rational claime.

If the F-35 production was cut to just 12 planes at the same time the US DoD was saying that further production would be delayed 7+ years at the same time the only export customer nations (whose funding and export sales were being relied upon to make the program financially viable) cancelled their participation, it would be fair to say the F-35 program was dead.

But of course, that requires being able to critically analyse the topic in an unbiased way,, something fanboys are not known for being capable of doing, as they have attached their self-worth to the Su-57.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Jul 2018, 15:38
by mixelflick
Cobra321, you are still not getting it...

The big disconnect is between your CLAIMS and Russia's ACTIONS. You're claiming that everything is A OK, and proceeding to plan. The Russians realize that in its current rendition, the SU-57 isn't all that much more capable than the SU-35. They've dramatically curtailed production to just 12 examples, allegedly being operational/combat capable at some point and "in service".

They're also very clear on the SU-57 being more for export. Now tell me, why would a country like Russia procure such a limited number of these super fighters for itself, and focus mainly on selling them abroad? The exact opposite situation is seen with the F-22. The US passed a law saying that the F-22 can NOT be exported, given its so head and shoulders better than anything flying. So if the SU-57 is really such a breakthrough, why wouldn't they keep it all to themselves?

In that respect, it mirrors their Mig-35 situation. The Russians are buying small numbers and hoping that foreign operators will see this, then be enticed to order Mig-35's. How's that formula working for ya?

Until such time as you have a fully functional airframe with stage 2 engines, avionics etc. you have.... an experiment. It's an expensive experiment, and by the time it's ready for prime time upgraded F-22's and 35's will be flying, with PCA right behind them. In the case of the F-35, there will be thousands of them. Literally thousands, flying from almost every corner of the globe.

Actions, not words tell the SU-57's story..

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Jul 2018, 16:48
by madrat
My feeling is that Soviets faltered in industry way before the fall of the wall. The last fighter from Soviet times that proliferated widely was the MiG-21, a design virtually began in the 50's. They had a lot of Sukhoi single-engine fighter sales, too. But MiG-29 proliferation was largely mythical. The Soviets were surprised by the poor results of their equipment, but the West always seemed to be a step ahead. (Even though they played up the threat publicly.)
Image
If China's J-10 and JF-17 had been Soviet-Russia in origin, perhaps they would have enjoyed more exports. Focus should have been around around HMS + R73 and affordability. Basically stuck with pragmatic choices and less wishful thinking.

By the time they went for stealth there could have been a more affordable option on the table.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Jul 2018, 16:55
by mk82
cobra321 wrote:
lrrpf52 wrote:
cobra321 wrote:
There's kindergarten level logic going on with the coverage of the su 57 alright, from Business Insider. Mostly from one author who is spreading libelous nonsense.

This has to be the first time that a jet is being heralded as canceled in the very same week that it is going into production. :roll:

You might want to contact the Russian Defense Minister to brief him on how his program is to be planned, because he didn't get you-fighter-program-isnt-dead-at-least-not-yet



.



You might want to contact the Russian Defense Minister to brief him on how his program is to be planned, because he didn't get your memo


The Russian defense ministry has ordered 12 new production Sukhoi Su-57 fifth-generation fighters and confirmed next year as the target date for entry-into-service.

Inspecting Sukhoi’s KnAAPO factory in Komsomolsk-upon-Amur in late June, deputy minister Aleksei Krivoruchko told journalists that the Su-57 prototypes had “demonstrated full compliance to the customer’s specification” during flight trials and the overseas deployment.

In early 2019, the Lipetsk 4th Combat Training Center (PSC) will receive two new production Su-57 aircraft. They will be tested by experienced test pilots, then commanders, pilots and technical personnel for winged vehicles will be trained in the center. Also, the "Aircraft Bible" will be created, which describes all the nuances of his work. According to military experts, the fact of the transfer of fighters to the air center of VKS indicates the imminent adoption of the first Russian fighter of the fifth generation for armament.


There is a two-stage system for adopting new aircraft in the air defense system. First serial copies are received by the State Flight Test Center of the Ministry of Defense (GLITS), which is located in the city of Akhtubinsk in the Astrakhan Region. This stage will be completed before the end of this year. After that, the Su-57 will be transferred to the Lipetsk Air Center.

In the 4th Combat Training Center, the Su-57's combat operation will actually begin, the former commander of the 4th Air Force and Air Defense Army, Hero of Russia, Lieutenant-General Valery Gorbenko told Izvestia.

You just took quotes from Borisov and then added some commentary from a War Is Boring hit piece and called it an Interfax article.

Then there's the Pierre Sprey of Russia who called it an expensive toy. He's got nothing on Sprey though. Sprey is the king of anti 5th gen.

are obsolete engines


It was known since 2010 that it was a 2 phase engine program.


It is pretty obvious that the SU 57 is not being cancelled outright......but it is also obvious that the SU 57 will only be built in relatively small numbers.....a precious silver bullet force.....not the raging success story especially in comparison to earlier Russian propaganda.

lrrpf52’s quote is truly from Interfax Russia.....tough! Russian Pierre Sprey or not......the Russian journalist did raise some good and glaring points/issues about the SU 57 program. Credit to the Russian vice ministers (Borisov et al) who finally acknowledged these significant problems of the SU 57 program and moved on with a somewhat more realistic plan......like a mature adult. You see Cobra321.....it’s very simple......in order to solve a problem....you must acknowledge the problem PERIOD. And there are major problems with the SU 57 program which are not going to be solved with just la la propaganda. It’s not business as usual and it is definitely not everything is hunky Dory.

Mk 82

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Jul 2018, 17:04
by juretrn
madrat wrote:Image

What's this? A "what if" of a single-engine MiG-29?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Jul 2018, 17:17
by sprstdlyscottsmn
Looks like Fulcrum and a Falcon hooked up.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Jul 2018, 17:29
by botsing
juretrn wrote:
madrat wrote:Image

What's this? A "what if" of a single-engine MiG-29?

Mikoyan Project 33.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Jul 2018, 18:14
by charlielima223
madrat wrote:Image

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:Looks like Fulcrum and a Falcon hooked up.

Image

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Jul 2018, 18:48
by cobra321
mixelflick wrote:Cobra321, you are still not getting it...

The big disconnect is between your CLAIMS and Russia's ACTIONS. You're claiming that everything is A OK, and proceeding to plan. The Russians realize that in its current rendition, the SU-57 isn't all that much more capable than the SU-35. They've dramatically curtailed production to just 12 examples, allegedly being operational/combat capable at some point and "in service".

They're also very clear on the SU-57 being more for export. Now tell me, why would a country like Russia procure such a limited number of these super fighters for itself, and focus mainly on selling them abroad? The exact opposite situation is seen with the F-22. The US passed a law saying that the F-22 can NOT be exported, given its so head and shoulders better than anything flying. So if the SU-57 is really such a breakthrough, why wouldn't they keep it all to themselves?

In that respect, it mirrors their Mig-35 situation. The Russians are buying small numbers and hoping that foreign operators will see this, then be enticed to order Mig-35's. How's that formula working for ya?

Until such time as you have a fully functional airframe with stage 2 engines, avionics etc. you have.... an experiment. It's an expensive experiment, and by the time it's ready for prime time upgraded F-22's and 35's will be flying, with PCA right behind them. In the case of the F-35, there will be thousands of them. Literally thousands, flying from almost every corner of the globe.

Actions, not words tell the SU-57's story..


Are you surmising that development of the su 57 is going to stop ? We will cease to get updates from the program ? No more new pictures of the jet ? The new engine is going to be mothballed ?

And if we do continue to get updates and evidence shows that development of the su 57 is continuing , what do you think is going on ?

In that respect, it mirrors their Mig-35 situation. The Russians are buying small numbers and hoping that foreign operators will see this, then be enticed to order Mig-35's. How's that formula working for ya?


Just another one of those narratives. Theres just as many countries with Mig 29's in service as F-16's yet the Mig 29 and 35 is dead. Just b/c ppl say it is

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Jul 2018, 20:13
by SpudmanWP
juretrn wrote:What's this? A "what if" of a single-engine MiG-29?

What if.... the Soviets made a reliable engine :mrgreen:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Jul 2018, 20:42
by juretrn
SpudmanWP wrote:
juretrn wrote:What's this? A "what if" of a single-engine MiG-29?

What if.... the Soviets made a reliable engine :mrgreen:

Hey now... 400 hour engine life is fine! :mrgreen:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Jul 2018, 23:08
by project458
juretrn wrote:
SpudmanWP wrote:
juretrn wrote:What's this? A "what if" of a single-engine MiG-29?

What if.... the Soviets made a reliable engine :mrgreen:

Hey now... 400 hour engine life is fine! :mrgreen:



AL-41F1C on the Su-35 clocks 4,000 hours, but hey you "aviation experts" are welcome to think that Russia''s tech is still stuck in 80s :mrgreen:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Jul 2018, 23:22
by juretrn
project458 wrote:AL-41F1C on the Su-35 clocks 4,000 hours, but hey you "aviation experts" are welcome to think that Russia''s tech is still stuck in 80s :mrgreen:

No, now it's mostly stuck in the 90's. Except for their semiconductor industry, which is stuck in a gulag somewhere.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 30 Jul 2018, 03:29
by cobra321
^ That's brave posting that video. That guy explains something that de-rated su 30 Indian piloted jets can do in maneuverability realm comparable to a certain Lockheed fighter jet. :

Mig 29 kill caught on tapeImage

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 30 Jul 2018, 04:54
by element1loop
Image


This is actually a rare single-engine MiG32 'Steppe-Dart', which despite first appearances is claimed to be a very reliable ground-attack aircraft, shown here displaying its characteristic nose-down attitude. Also nick-named the 'Gopher', for not entirely clear reasons.

__

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 30 Jul 2018, 07:19
by project458
lrrpf52 wrote:
juretrn wrote:AL-41F1C on the Su-35 clocks 4,000 hours, but hey you "aviation experts" are welcome to think that Russia''s tech is still stuck in 80s :mrgreen:


It turned out Russian fan blade, high pressure compressor, fuel pump, DEEC, actuator, and critical engine component technology was nowhere near the US or UK, but I guess that was all fixed overnight with the Su-35 motors.

Russian internal sources specifically state the Mean Time Between Overhaul for the AL-41F-1S is 1000hrs, with an engine planned life of 4,000 hours.




Overnight? There is full decade gap between AL-31 and Saturn AL-41F1S, and when it comes engine tech Russia has significantly closed the gap with the West, with izdeliye 30 they will mach the US and surpass everyone else, and China despite its bragging and boasting to this day still buys our engines in significant quantities.



Same thing with the PESA radar. MTBF nowhere near stated specs, along with many other avionics systems. Russia offered one-for-one replacements at full cost. This is typical Russian marketing 101, and all other prospective customers are watching how they will be treated by looking at the example of how Russia treats one of its largest FMS customers.


Russia already has two functioning AESA designs, both currently in flight testing and 1-3 years from mass production.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 30 Jul 2018, 08:05
by Corsair1963
If, I had a dollar for every Russia prediction that they got wrong. I could have retired 20 years ago......... :?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 30 Jul 2018, 09:31
by knowan
I'm always amused by people taking Russian claims at face value.

And lol at a UAV being counted as a 'kill'. What's next, counting MH17 as a 'kill' for the Buk for the purpose of claiming weapon effectiveness?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 30 Jul 2018, 10:37
by popcorn
Russia jumping a generation from 4++ to 6G? Magical. :mrgreen:
Too bad the US never learned that trick, could've gone from the Phantom to the Raptor and F-35. No need for all those Teen jets. :doh:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 30 Jul 2018, 10:38
by Corsair1963
popcorn wrote:Russia jumping a generation from 4++ to 6G? Magical. :mrgreen:
Too bad the US never learned that trick, could've gone from the Phantom to the Raptor and F-35. No need for all those Teen jets. :doh:




LOL

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 30 Jul 2018, 16:09
by mixelflick
"Are you surmising that development of the su 57 is going to stop ? We will cease to get updates from the program ? No more new pictures of the jet ? The new engine is going to be mothballed ??

No, but it's interesting that's where your mind went. Regardless of what the plan now is, come talk to me when you have a meaningful production run (50 or more airframes). Until then, you have an experiment, not a combat capable aircraft..


And if we do continue to get updates and evidence shows that development of the su 57 is continuing , what do you think is going on ?

That's a big IF. But IF they do produce such evidence, it still doesn't mean the result in a combat capable 5th gen fighter (oops, I mean 6th gen). We all watched the Mig I.44 go from paper airplane to prototype, first flight etc but where is it today? Likely the same place the SU-57 is going to wind up.. the sh!tter

Just another one of those narratives. Theres just as many countries with Mig 29's in service as F-16's yet the Mig 29 and 35 is dead. Just b/c ppl say it is

You got thoroughly exposed on this laugh line, so much so there's nothing I can add to it. I'll second the notion the Mig-29 was what amounted to manned target drones for our F-15, 16 pilots etc.. In before you claim they were all 2nd rate pilots flying downgraded versions...

Why can't you just state the truth about the SU-57? Russia has encountered major problems with it, as evidence by the only people that really know what's going on inside the program - the Indians (pulled out). Or did they do that because the SU-57 was a super stealthy Raptor killer, same as Russia is advertising it to be..?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 30 Jul 2018, 16:21
by mixelflick
popcorn wrote:Russia jumping a generation from 4++ to 6G? Magical. :mrgreen:
Too bad the US never learned that trick, could've gone from the Phantom to the Raptor and F-35. No need for all those Teen jets. :doh:


LOL, indeed.

Having Raptors and F-35's would have been so cool in the mid-80's. If only the Russians would let us in on how they do it. I'm fairly certain is has a lot to do with smoke, mirrors and vodka - just unsure as to the amounts. Likely heavy on the vodka though, so I'll be starting there..

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 30 Jul 2018, 18:38
by milosh
lrrpf52 wrote:
juretrn wrote:Su-30MKIs with AL-41FP at Red Flag had such FOD sensitivity, that they had to schedule the sortie launch rates with consideration for the Su-30MKIs more than any other aircraft.


Al-31 is in Su-30MKI not Al-41 and Indians don't maintain their engines (at least back then) they send them in Russia so they didn't want any possible FOD to happen. Flanker have anti FOD mesh in intake btw but still they didn't want to risk. China on other hand got maintenance facility for Al-31, and later they invest half of billion dollars in facility so they extend engine life 1.5x times . Al-31 is cheap engine somewhere below 2 million per engine is what China is paying. Similar price India pay that is why they said new Al-41 is expensive, they would like minimum 4000h service life for less then 2 million?!?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 31 Jul 2018, 14:22
by mixelflick
Those numbers are staggering...

The Mig-29 wasn't a bad design, certainly much better than the Mig-21's and 23's that it replaced. I thought the airframe was rather brilliant, but you need a lot more than an efficient airframe to make an effective point defense fighter. More than any other jet, the pilot/plane/weapons interface is dismal in the Mig-29, and even well trained pilots will be hamstrung by it.

In contrast the US teen series jets have it all: Efficient airframes, superior radar, much better weapons system/computer/pilot interface. The result is what you see here - every time F-15's and 16's fly, Mig-29's die. I'm no fan of the Super Hornet, but it's doubtful the situation would be any different there.

Russian jets look "as good". But once you peak under the hood serious deficiencies show up. And although the SU-27/Flanker series has yet to be combat tested, I'd lay good money they'd end up on the losing end of the fight as well. Great airframe, mediocre engine and falls down in avionics/weapons system integration.

If you really think about it, Russia hasn't produced a "total package" fighter in... a long time (Mig-15?). There's always something lacking, and it usually shows up at the worst time - in combat. The SU-57 is just the latest chapter in this sordid history, and to be honest it's coming up short in more areas than the Mig. Marginal stealth, in dire need of a 5th gen engine and questionable integrated avionics/situational awareness/weapons. But it's going to be a 6th gen wonder-bird, or so we're told. I won't be holding my breath. India sure isn't..

Perhaps they'll use it to down Cessna's too. "Combat proven" and all...

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 01 Aug 2018, 00:35
by madrat
Su-27's untested?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 01 Aug 2018, 13:53
by mixelflick
madrat wrote:Su-27's untested?


There are a couple of way at looking at this IMO.

On the one hand, the robust numbers of the F-15/16 detailed here stand in stark contrast to the few air to air kills the Flanker holds over the Mig-29. On the other hand, the F-22 doesn't have any air to air kills.

But the Flanker has been in service since what, 1986? As well, its list of foreign operators is a long one..

1. Russia (USSR)
2. Algeria
3. Angola
4. Belarus
5. China
6. Eritrea
7. Ethiopia
8. India
9. Indonesia
10. Kazakhstan
11. Malaysia
12. Uganda
13. Ukraine
14. Uzbekistan
15. Venezuela
16. Vietnam

So it's hard to put a "combat proven/tested" label on it, at least in the air to air arena. A few Mig-29 kills over Africa isn't enough IMO. Now if it had put up a good showing in something like Desert Storm or Bosnia, etc... that's a different story. I don't think there's any question its a capable design. But the number of air to air engagements its partaken in is... amazingly low for an airframe that's been in service for the past 30 plus years, and in the air arms of well over a dozen countries.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 01 Aug 2018, 14:50
by XanderCrews
project458 wrote:

Overnight? There is full decade gap between AL-31 and Saturn AL-41F1S, and when it comes engine tech Russia has significantly closed the gap with the West, with izdeliye 30 they will mach the US and surpass everyone else,


Oh?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 01 Aug 2018, 16:57
by element1loop
In 2010, just 5 seconds looking at the cockpit of most MiG29s and Su27s would make clear why those machines were never going to dominate 1980s western types. Finally rebuilding them and putting integrated 4th-gen systems into them was such a radically transformative upgrade that the Russians had the cheek to even re-designate them. But most people casually looking at a fresh Su27, and an Su35, parked side by side, would not notice much difference.

At the same time as their SA finally went up, VLO arrived, and their SA collapsed again. And it isn't coming back.

Buggah!

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 01 Aug 2018, 18:58
by icemaverick
project458 wrote:Overnight? There is full decade gap between AL-31 and Saturn AL-41F1S, and when it comes engine tech Russia has significantly closed the gap with the West, with izdeliye 30 they will mach the US and surpass everyone else,


10 years is a pretty short time when it comes to jet engine tech. The two engines aren't even all that different. One is simply an evolutionary change over the other. It's highly doubtful that they made such a drastic improvement.

You are extremely optimistic about Russian engine technology. If Russian engines are so great, how come nobody is using Russian jets on their civilian aircraft? Even Sukhoi is partnering with a French company to build the engines that power the Sukhoi Superjet. China is buying Russian engines for its fighters because they don't have access to Western engines. And we all know China will simply reverse engineer the Russian engines and steal the tech for its own engine programs.

India, which has plenty of experience with Russian engines chooses to pay for American engines to power its Tejas fighter. They also opted to spend a lot of money to buy Rafales even though they have plenty of experience with the Su-30MKI.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 02 Aug 2018, 03:01
by madrat
India should have been working on an MKI-offshoot with Western engine options.

Then again, they could have just as easily bought western fighters.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 02 Aug 2018, 15:27
by mixelflick
That "SU-27 nearly crashes into a soldier" video didn't seem to be due to any engine issue(s).

It was however, an excellent example of irresponsible airmanship the Russians occasionally practice. There are a whole bunch of people who think this "ultra low pass" nonsense is some kind of badge of honor. Allegedly, Russian pilots pride themselves on this kind of stuff. 'll say it again, because it bears repeating - irresponsible airmanship.

I'd love to know what our fighter pilots think...

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 02 Aug 2018, 15:36
by XanderCrews
icemaverick wrote:
project458 wrote:Overnight? There is full decade gap between AL-31 and Saturn AL-41F1S, and when it comes engine tech Russia has significantly closed the gap with the West, with izdeliye 30 they will mach the US and surpass everyone else,


10 years is a pretty short time when it comes to jet engine tech. The two engines aren't even all that different. One is simply an evolutionary change over the other. It's highly doubtful that they made such a drastic improvement.

You are extremely optimistic about Russian engine technology. If Russian engines are so great, how come nobody is using Russian jets on their civilian aircraft? Even Sukhoi is partnering with a French company to build the engines that power the Sukhoi Superjet. China is buying Russian engines for its fighters because they don't have access to Western engines. And we all know China will simply reverse engineer the Russian engines and steal the tech for its own engine programs.

India, which has plenty of experience with Russian engines chooses to pay for American engines to power its Tejas fighter. They also opted to spend a lot of money to buy Rafales even though they have plenty of experience with the Su-30MKI.


I'm still waiting for more evidence than the constant bold claims that as always, they're just "a few more years" away from total parity with the west. Where the Russian hide their silicon valley and western quality advanced engines after decades of development at the cost f billions I have no idea. Theyre all over Russia I guess. I bet if you go to the east they say these super factories are in the west, if you go to the west, they say theyre in the east. No one knows where they are and theres no evidence or proof. But trust us theyre there! This is Russia. We all know how highly advanced, technological, bribe free, and well run this capitalist oasis is.

As always with this subject its a Parity Parody HAHA

AnY DaY NoW!


I'm sure we are just 6 months away from the real life Firefox being rolled out with 6th Gen engines, and AI to boot.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 02 Aug 2018, 15:38
by XanderCrews
mixelflick wrote:That "SU-27 nearly crashes into a soldier" video didn't seem to be due to any engine issue(s).

It was however, an excellent example of irresponsible airmanship the Russians occasionally practice. There are a whole bunch of people who think this "ultra low pass" nonsense is some kind of badge of honor. Allegedly, Russian pilots pride themselves on this kind of stuff. 'll say it again, because it bears repeating - irresponsible airmanship.

I'd love to know what our fighter pilots think...



Ukrainian. But Safety east of the Iron Curtain is still "relative" in a lot places.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 02 Aug 2018, 15:43
by XanderCrews
Corsair1963 wrote:If, I had a dollar for every Russia prediction that they got wrong. I could have retired 20 years ago......... :?



With a pool and a Lamborghini too.

knowan wrote:I'm always amused by people taking Russian claims at face value.

And lol at a UAV being counted as a 'kill'. What's next, counting MH17 as a 'kill' for the Buk for the purpose of claiming weapon effectiveness?



Kinda desperate isn't it? And give them time on MH17. It will happen. Fanboys will gladly take shooting down an airliner to try and be right on the internet.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 04 Aug 2018, 14:26
by mixelflick
lrrpf52 wrote:
mixelflick wrote:That "SU-27 nearly crashes into a soldier" video didn't seem to be due to any engine issue(s).

It was however, an excellent example of irresponsible airmanship the Russians occasionally practice. There are a whole bunch of people who think this "ultra low pass" nonsense is some kind of badge of honor. Allegedly, Russian pilots pride themselves on this kind of stuff. 'll say it again, because it bears repeating - irresponsible airmanship.

I'd love to know what our fighter pilots think...

Watch it again and look at which motor is producing smoke. The starboard engine. Notice how there is no smoke coming from the port engine. Which wing dipped because the aircraft wasn't making normal rate of ascent and had asymmetric force on the airframe? The port wing dipped, almost stalled.

That Su-27 almost contacted the ground. You don't do that on take-off with your wingman, Slav recklessness aside. That was a near disaster due to a port engine failure. Their engines are garbage.

Then the next video shows their pride and joy Su-57 wonder jet flaming out at MAKS for all to see, followed by emergency procedures shut down and drogue delivery.


OK I get your point. But are we not cherry picking examples here? We could for example cite the example of the F-35 engine fire a few years back. Having said that, there's little doubt American/western engines are far more reliable than their Russian counterparts. What's intriguing to me is that in an effort to match performance, their thrust levels are similar (up until the F-119/F-135). So their Flankers for example... some of them put out near/a little more than 30,000lbs of thrust. But they don't last long before breaking, and even if they don't break TBO is much shorter.

It makes you wonder how the Chinese will fight a war. Will they follow the former Soviet model? You know, fly until it breaks, throw it away and pump out another airframe? I don't think you can do that anymore given late model Flankers and J-10c's don't exactly flow from the factory like Mig-21's used to. And that situation is going to get a whole lot worse given J-20's and J/C-31's. Any good engine is going to cost a lot of $, so simply stocking up on them isn't a feasible idea either.

At some point they're going to have to build them to last. And its questionable whether they can have 1.) thrust/power AND 2.) competitive TBO's comparable with western engines. The more I think about it, the more it may be their true achilles heel..

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 04 Aug 2018, 16:49
by icemaverick
You could talk about the F-35 engine fire but how many flights hours has the F-35 logged vs. the Su-57? No jet engine will be completely flawless. Failures will occur but what matters is the rate of failure.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 09 Aug 2018, 16:04
by mixelflick
I'd suggest that the parity was a lot closer than originally thought with the Russians, I'm talking late 80's, early 90's. Airframe wise, their Mig-29's and SU-27's were close. In the SU-27's case, very close to the F-15 and in some parts of the envelope, better. In some areas they held an unquestionable lead - the Archer. We had much better avionics, engines and probably pilots - but that was as close as it ever got. Then you had the collapse of the Soviet Union, and they got set back a decade, maybe two..

I just hate to see a potential enemy under-estimated. The Russians are tough, resourceful people. Their designs may come up short in some areas, but are strong in others. Had they been able to stay solvent, it really makes you wonder what kind of aircraft they'd be flying today. Sure, the Mig-25 was crude and in some cases found wanting. But remember - the Foxbat put up tremendous fights against Eagles and in at least one case, outran MANY pursuing Eagles and their Sparrows. And I'm not talking one or two... many sparrows fired and many F-15's vectored to intercept them. As it stands, the Mig-25 downed an F/A-18, and it was designed an entire generation before. Just imagine if the Iraqi's had Mig-31's. We might be sitting here today discussing how it did against our F-14's or 15's.

But I'm with you on where we (and they) are today. They're in a real pickle because they bet the farm on WVR dogfights, the fact their S-300/400 can down stealth aircraft etc.. If the future sees the F-35 or 22 downing SU-30SM's and SU-35's, the whole world is going to be knocking on LM's door for the F-35. Or China's if they ever get the FC-31 in gear.

We are at a crossroads, and for my money they've been beat. But we shall see. I tend to think Israel is going to shock the world with what she does with her F-35's. It is only a matter of when, not if they strike the Iranians...

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 10 Aug 2018, 14:11
by mixelflick
OK.... what's your assessment of China then?

Through espionage and other means, they've come up with some pretty slick designs - like the J-10C. They're building plenty of them, and its comparable to an F-16 (pick your block #). They have plenty of Flankers too, including the latest and greatest SU-35. The J-20 is still somewhat of a wild card, but its clearly going to be something we have to deal with sooner or later.

They've built a pretty slick hi/low mix IMO, and their air to air weapons seem to really be coming along. I'm not sure what their pilot training is like, but certainly it's not good to under-estimate them. They seem to be succeeding where the Russians are failing - building a pretty robust air to air and air to ground capability. Granted, long way to go in the air to air refueling, AWACS dept, but they no doubt know that's a weakness too.

The F-35 has a lot riding on its shoulders, but it sounds like its up to the task. If it's that good. If it's built in the kind of numbers we need. If it doesn't bankrupt us, it'll forever be known as the plane that broke Russia's back, and perhaps even China's too. That's just how I see it. I forsee a few hundred J-20's produced but the J/C-31 or whatever having issues. Big issues, that'll result in it not being mass produced for perhaps another decade..

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 10 Aug 2018, 20:04
by disconnectedradical
I'm all for realistic assessment of capabilities but dismissing Russian and Chinese cultures as failures seem too far. :|

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 10 Aug 2018, 23:52
by popcorn
Has any country ever achieved military greatness without first undergoing a major trial by fire against a superior combat-proven adversary and emerge victorious at the first attempt?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 11 Aug 2018, 00:19
by vilters
The best Russia can do is melt them down and start over. The PAK-FA "as is" is an Joke for Russia industry.
Get over it. OK, you'v got your LEVCON data, now start building an aircraft.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 11 Aug 2018, 03:48
by element1loop
yes, yes, *BUT*, I read several somewhere's that both China and Russia are at least 10 years ahead in hypersonic weapons tech, and can wipe the floor with us, purify the entire planet of the agro-anglo impirialist dogs. We may need to use chop-sticks from here! Eating with freakin' cutting-edge STICK technology! We just got complacent, we'd assumed superior fork tech would win, it made sense! But now they've got us over a barrel on this hypersonics stuff. ... :shock: :doh:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 11 Aug 2018, 23:14
by juretrn
We almost forgot:
Image

F

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 12 Aug 2018, 01:18
by nutshell
juretrn wrote:We almost forgot:
Image

F



Hahaha :mrgreen:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 12 Aug 2018, 02:04
by viper12
F :twisted:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 13 Aug 2018, 06:16
by Corsair1963
I am sure Vietnam was counting on the Su-57 to get it into the Stealth Fighter Game! So, now what??? :?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 13 Aug 2018, 06:53
by element1loop
Corsair1963 wrote:I am sure Vietnam was counting on the Su-57 to get it into the Stealth Fighter Game! So, now what??? :?


Given the '4.5' SH BkIII is probably better in LO performance than T50 (there are still no actual Su57s) with better fully matured sensors, weapons and comms (and probably cheaper over the life-cycle too) and is a match for the PLAAF Su35 force, I'd be considering a couple of squadrons.

That gets them to an initial interoperabilty level that they're going to need and which they can build on, plus opens up relations with many other forces.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 13 Aug 2018, 08:53
by Corsair1963
element1loop wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:I am sure Vietnam was counting on the Su-57 to get it into the Stealth Fighter Game! So, now what??? :?


Given the '4.5' SH BkIII is probably better in LO performance than T50 (there are still no actual Su57s) with better fully matured sensors, weapons and comms (and probably cheaper over the life-cycle too) and is a match for the PLAAF Su35 force, I'd be considering a couple of squadrons.

That gets them to an initial interoperabilty level that they're going to need and which they can build on, plus opens up relations with many other forces.


The Su-57 carries it's Weapons and Fuel internally like the F-22/F-35. So, there is no way the Super Hornet would have a smaller RCS under a combat load. Nor, would the US likely sell Vietnam the Super Hornet in the first place! :shock:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 13 Aug 2018, 13:35
by mixelflick
Vietnam flys Flankers now, just not sure what type. I don't think they're as advanced as Malaysia's though. Regardless, are they not an enemy of China's? It's tough telling who the good guys/bad guys are in that part of the world, with the exception of the Aussie's.

Speaking of which, Carlo Kopp must be stricken with a good mix of disappointment and rage. First, his country acquires the Super Hornet, then the Growler and now the F-35. That's the exact opposite of what he wanted, albeit it was totally unrealistic. The 2018 F-35 RIAT display alone must have sent him into orbit... :mrgreen:

I just checked air power Australia's page on the PAK FA. No updates in years. I think even he's given up on it seeing the light of day, and clearly outlined how most of it uses the SU-35's systems, engines etc but in a squashed down airframe. Like someone stepped on a Flanker.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 13 Aug 2018, 20:31
by talkitron
The Vietnam People's Air Force has 47 Flankers: 11 Su-27 and 36 Su-30MK2V according to Wikipedia. This force is not going to defeat a major Chinese attack but might generate some deterrence.

Despite China being the main high end antagonist of Vietnam, the Su-30MK2V is based on the Su-30MK2 version exported to China for the maritime strike role. This is fairly up to date as Flanker variants go. These variants are from the KnAAPO plant in far eastern Russia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-30MKK

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 13 Aug 2018, 22:16
by mixelflick
talkitron wrote:The Vietnam People's Air Force has 47 Flankers: 11 Su-27 and 36 Su-30MK2V according to Wikipedia. This force is not going to defeat a major Chinese attack but might generate some deterrence.

Despite China being the main high end antagonist of Vietnam, the Su-30MK2V is based on the Su-30MK2 version exported to China for the maritime strike role. This is fairly up to date as Flanker variants go. These variants are from the KnAAPO plant in far eastern Russia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-30MKK


Many thanks..

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 14 Aug 2018, 00:30
by Corsair1963
While the current Flanker Fleet of Vietnam. Does provide a modest deterrent value. With the advent of Chinese J-20's and soon J-31's. That won't last long...



Which, was my point.... :wink:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 14 Aug 2018, 01:28
by popcorn
China would be far more concerned about Vietnam's Kilo sub fleet if things ever came to a head.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 14 Aug 2018, 04:00
by Corsair1963
popcorn wrote:China would be far more concerned about Vietnam's Kilo sub fleet if things ever came to a head.



Good Point.....Yet, you still need to put of a credible defense across the whole spectrum.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 14 Aug 2018, 04:05
by element1loop
Corsair1963 wrote:
element1loop wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:I am sure Vietnam was counting on the Su-57 to get it into the Stealth Fighter Game! So, now what??? :?


Given the '4.5' SH BkIII is probably better in LO performance than T50 (there are still no actual Su57s) with better fully matured sensors, weapons and comms (and probably cheaper over the life-cycle too) and is a match for the PLAAF Su35 force, I'd be considering a couple of squadrons.

That gets them to an initial interoperabilty level that they're going to need and which they can build on, plus opens up relations with many other forces.


The Su-57 carries it's Weapons and Fuel internally like the F-22/F-35. So, there is no way the Super Hornet would have a smaller RCS under a combat load. Nor, would the US likely sell Vietnam the Super Hornet in the first place! :shock:



The thing is, there are no Su57s, and not much in the way of PLAAF LO aircraft yet (does anyone think J20s are meaningfully operational yet?)

The US and Aust allied with Japan not so long after WWII (a 'nuclear war', as it turned out). And the Vietnam conflict wound up almost 45 years ago.

Superhornet is ~25 years old, and something with considerably better tech and capability is entering USN and USMC service. Washington could offer a subset of the full USN 'bells 'n whistles' version to preserve its more current and sensitive capabilities.

A small SH fleet with a weapon like SLAM-ER, would make the PLAN think twice about mobbing or else opening fire on Vietnamese vessels, operating in international waters. It's a significant deterrent and response.

Five years ago I would have agreed with you. However, if the USN were not still recapping worn-out SH, their production would be closing down. Plus five years ago there were a lot less armed islands in the SCS and China was much less beligerant about it. That vast fleet, needed to build those islands, did not get constructed overnight. It was a long-term plan and specialised ship-building program. It would be a good idea to hedge against what else China is doing in plain sight. And show that level of commitment to helping Vietnam out here.

And frankly, the same levels of trust have been risked with several SEA states, who are from time to time also a bit dubious, as mutual defense partners, and prefer to be non-aligned, and to play us off. And they have had similar generation modern kit for decades.

(and ethically its probably the least the US could do to mend fences with Vietnam and create good will ... 2c)

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 14 Aug 2018, 04:16
by Corsair1963
The US is not likely to sell Vietnam any Super Hornets in the foreseeable future....

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 14 Aug 2018, 23:06
by madrat
Gripen C is probably more than an adequate option if they care to risk F404 technology.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 15 Aug 2018, 00:19
by Corsair1963
madrat wrote:Gripen C is probably more than an adequate option if they care to risk F404 technology.



I was thinking the same thing and the US likely would allow it....Hell, the Gripen NG (JAS-39E) may even be an option???

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 15 Aug 2018, 01:53
by popcorn
lrrpf52 wrote:
popcorn wrote:Has any country ever achieved military greatness without first undergoing a major trial by fire against a superior combat-proven adversary and emerge victorious at the first attempt?

Continental Army under Washington comes to mind.

By all metrics, they should have been easily defeated.

Yeah, eventually they triumphed after a bloody learning curve. I was thinking in the context of modern Hi-Tech warfare where wars will likely be shorter and extremely brutal on men and equipment. May not have the luxury of time to learn from experience because you're dead.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 15 Aug 2018, 13:52
by mixelflick
popcorn wrote:
lrrpf52 wrote:
popcorn wrote:Has any country ever achieved military greatness without first undergoing a major trial by fire against a superior combat-proven adversary and emerge victorious at the first attempt?

Continental Army under Washington comes to mind.

By all metrics, they should have been easily defeated.

Yeah, eventually they triumphed after a bloody learning curve. I was thinking in the context of modern Hi-Tech warfare where wars will likely be shorter and extremely brutal on men and equipment. May not have the luxury of time to learn from experience because you're dead.


And this is the big wildcard with Russia and China - they're not combat proven forces. The whole world watched as the US and her allies dismantled Iraq in record time during DS. The US military put on an amazing display of high tech, precision guided munitions and stealth technology. Then came 17 years of low intensity conflicts across the globe and even more combat tested platforms and people.

China and Russia cannot say this. Russia in Syria comes close, but what have their weapons systems really accomplished there? No SU-35 (or other platform) has shot in anger air to air. True, some dumb bombs and smart cruise missiles have been used, but it's not like it's been on any large scale. China last fought a major war, when? Sure they're modernizing, but I see no scenario where any of its equipment has been combat tested.

Anyway, the SU-57 (which I will henceforth refer to as the PAK FA) is going nowhere fast. They attempted to field a stealth bird and thus far, have little to show for it. 12 aircraft isn't a squadron, it's an experiment. They will likely persist though, the same way they did with the T-10 airframe. But the PAK FA isn't a T-10, and it's going to be a bear to mass produce if it ever gets to that stage. By the time it is ready, it will likely be obsolete and foreign operators will find it quite inferior to the F-35's tech (if any foreign country bites). Do or die time for Russian aerospace...

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 15 Aug 2018, 16:31
by element1loop
I remember saying to a forum in about 2007 that Russia would probably end up just remanufacturing moderised Fulcrums and Flankers. Most thought not and some quite scathingly. But mosty that's all they've done.

And for most of the past ten years I've thought Russia must be foxing with the T50 design. This can't be it, this is what they want to field? Shirley not!? So I thought they must have another prototype design, one that we haven't seen yet. But it's become clear there isn't.

The relative stability (or not) of economics decided their airforce, and its obsolescence level, and that's a critical point to remember, imo.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 15 Aug 2018, 21:35
by SpudmanWP
Don't forget the newer AdvEOTS, OLED HMDS, new main display, etc

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 16 Aug 2018, 14:27
by mixelflick
lrrpf52 wrote:It makes sense for them to slow-roll it right now while doing everything in their power to get more data from JSF program, especially how we cracked the code on systems integration with common software interface architecture, and connectivity with other nodes in the net.

They will also do everything they can to G2 our RAM and structures even more, as well as how we pulled off the IR and MWIR spectrum signature reduction, and slowly try to incorporate these features into the Su-57.

By the time they have a semi-mature model nailed down, we'll be well into Block 4 and PCA prototypes flying.

There will be 800+ F-35As and Bs by that point, and 300 F-35Cs with squadrons that already have a decade of deployment and training experiences. There will be the F135-PW-XXX Enhanced Performance Engine, with GaN TRM-equipped APG-81(V)X AESAs being introduced after the ODT&E program, and the newer EODAS.

We'll be looking at a more diverse assortment of 5th Gen weapons as well, while the Russians are running around wondering how to re-tool the Sukhoi production line set-up and subcontractor sourcing schedule nightmare.


A good lesson in how playing catch up is the more expensive option. Literally and figuratively..

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 19 Aug 2018, 21:45
by tphuang
talkitron wrote:The Vietnam People's Air Force has 47 Flankers: 11 Su-27 and 36 Su-30MK2V according to Wikipedia. This force is not going to defeat a major Chinese attack but might generate some deterrence.

Despite China being the main high end antagonist of Vietnam, the Su-30MK2V is based on the Su-30MK2 version exported to China for the maritime strike role. This is fairly up to date as Flanker variants go. These variants are from the KnAAPO plant in far eastern Russia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-30MKK


No, they won't. Here is the thing. Training and practices do matter. China has its own version of red flag vs blue flag exercises every year. Everything in PLAAF by this point would have trained to death against other types of aircraft. They would have a pretty good idea of the tactics to employ and how to use the AWACS and other surveillance aircraft and radar to track something like Su-30 or anything in flanker series. In a few years, pilots flying J-20 or even J-10s in PLAAF would have full knowledge of the best practices in countering Su-30/35s and they would be no such knowledge on the Vietnam side. I would be surprised if Vietnam air force shoots down more than a couple of Chinese fighter jets in any large scale combat.

This is why I'm continuously baffled IAF thinks their best answer against J-20 is those Su-30MKIs. Any air force planning against Chinese force should get F-35s as fast as they can. If they can't get F-35s, get eurocanards or F-18s.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 20 Aug 2018, 03:24
by element1loop
tphuang wrote:This is why I'm continuously baffled IAF thinks their best answer against J-20 is those Su-30MKIs. Any air force planning against Chinese force should get F-35s as fast as they can. If they can't get F-35s, get eurocanards or F-18s.


and/or/else ...

Begin to align and interoperate more closely with those who do, to build trust, capability, and build further towards better access.

Although there's belated improvements in that area of late, it's a minimum level a few countries could be rolling on more already. They've got to get the whole topic out of the back-rooms and rolling.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 20 Aug 2018, 17:19
by doge
Shock...! :shock:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 20 Aug 2018, 18:16
by hythelday
No problem, internal EO sensor carriage will be easily fitted into those "Izdelie 30" S-ducts! :oops: :oops: :oops:

Here's also a close-up of 101KS-N container, so that everyone can admire it's VLO shape and coating:
Image

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 20 Aug 2018, 18:30
by juretrn
Yup, it's "stels".

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 20 Aug 2018, 20:53
by XanderCrews
doge wrote:Shock...! :shock:



It's that integrated 5th gen sensor package we've been hearing so much about!

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 20 Aug 2018, 22:41
by wrightwing
It's positively riveting!

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 20 Aug 2018, 23:06
by firebase99
What a big, beautiful bullseye!!

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 21 Aug 2018, 04:36
by project458
Very Bad news for haters and day dreamers here


Russia and India sign FGFA contract


https://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=3050779


Western stupid media should pick it up soon.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 21 Aug 2018, 04:48
by popcorn
More like bad news for India if true. :devil:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 21 Aug 2018, 05:22
by Corsair1963
project458 wrote:Very Bad news for haters and day dreamers here


Russia and India sign FGFA contract


https://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=3050779


Western stupid media should pick it up soon.



Absurd India hasn't sign any such "contract". Nor, has it "returned" to the Su-57... :doh:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 21 Aug 2018, 05:33
by project458
Corsair1963 wrote:
project458 wrote:Very Bad news for haters and day dreamers here


Russia and India sign FGFA contract


https://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=3050779


Western stupid media should pick it up soon.



Absurd India hasn't sign any such "contract". Nor, has it "returned" to the Su-57... :doh:



Like, I said we will know more details later, but as for now start burying the idea of a Indian F-35 :mrgreen:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 21 Aug 2018, 05:48
by popcorn
project458 wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:
project458 wrote:Very Bad news for haters and day dreamers here


Russia and India sign FGFA contract


https://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=3050779


Western stupid media should pick it up soon.



Absurd India hasn't sign any such "contract". Nor, has it "returned" to the Su-57... :doh:




Like, I said we will know more details later, but as for now start burying the idea of a Indian F-35 :mrgreen:


OK will be happy to bury it.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 21 Aug 2018, 09:48
by knowan
project458 wrote:Very Bad news for haters and day dreamers here


Russia and India sign FGFA contract


https://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=3050779


Western stupid media should pick it up soon.


Funny how Russian fanboys continue to demonstrate their bias by taking any claims from Russia at face value.

For people capable of critically thinking, such a claim requires confirmation from both parties, and there hasn't been a peep about it from India.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 21 Aug 2018, 10:39
by gideonic
And this news magically appears near the same time that Turkish Defense Minister is visiting Russia. Wouldn't be surprised at all if they're upselling their Su-57's to them

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 21 Aug 2018, 13:24
by madrat
The turks would go J-20 over Su-57. They are aligning politically with China in One Road One Belt.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 21 Aug 2018, 14:09
by project458
knowan wrote:
project458 wrote:Very Bad news for haters and day dreamers here


Russia and India sign FGFA contract


https://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=3050779


Western stupid media should pick it up soon.


Funny how Russian fanboys continue to demonstrate their bias by taking any claims from Russia at face value.

For people capable of critically thinking, such a claim requires confirmation from both parties, and there hasn't been a peep about it from India.



Hilarious, by the same logic than F-35 fanboys should of waited for the same confirmation from the Russia before celebrating the "India pullout from Su-57", a confirmation that never happened, in fact now we are hearing the complete opposite.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 21 Aug 2018, 15:06
by knowan
project458 wrote:
knowan wrote:
project458 wrote:Very Bad news for haters and day dreamers here


Russia and India sign FGFA contract


https://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=3050779


Western stupid media should pick it up soon.


Funny how Russian fanboys continue to demonstrate their bias by taking any claims from Russia at face value.

For people capable of critically thinking, such a claim requires confirmation from both parties, and there hasn't been a peep about it from India.



Hilarious, by the same logic than F-35 fanboys should of waited for the same confirmation from the Russia before celebrating the "India pullout from Su-57", a confirmation that never happened, in fact now we are hearing the complete opposite.


Those are different claims with different standards. One is a customer saying they no longer want to purchase a product, another is a seller saying a customer still wants to purchase a product in direct contradiction of earlier news.

When a claim contradicts earlier information, then more confirmation is required. And because India is the customer, only their claims are worth attention.

And India cancelling their participation was confirmed by Russia cancelling further production after the initial 12.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 21 Aug 2018, 15:22
by marsavian
The Indians are still prepared to buy the Su-57 but just as a finished product because they are not prepared to co-develop it for billions any more. So produce the final initial production version with new engines and you might have a sale in 5 years.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 21 Aug 2018, 15:54
by element1loop
project458 wrote: ... Lazarus! Come forth! ...


... Lazarus! Come 4th! ...

FIFY

"A spoon full of sugar helps the medicine go down." - Mary Popins.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 21 Aug 2018, 17:22
by project458
knowan wrote:
project458 wrote:Very Bad news for haters and day dreamers here


And India cancelling their participation was confirmed by Russia cancelling further production after the initial 12.


What? First India Never officially cancelled anything, there was no official confirmation from their Mod or air force, only thing was b.S media outlets siting anonymous sources, and western news picked up and ran it and you believed it, hook line and sinker. Second Russia didn't canceld anything either, all it said is that it only start mass production when the final engines are ready, 3 or 4 years give or take, and some how that translates to the Su-57 being cancelled for you? :bang:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 21 Aug 2018, 18:02
by knowan
project458 wrote:What? First India Never officially cancelled anything, there was no official confirmation from their Mod or air force, only thing was b.S media outlets siting anonymous sources, and western news picked up and ran it and you believed it, hook line and sinker.


As quoted by lrrpf52 above:
It was recently reported that Russia and India were planning to jointly design a fifth-generation fighter jet.

But the Russian official revealed the proposals are on hold, telling Sputnik: "It is frozen for now. "But we hope that we will return to the dialogue on the fifth-generation fighter."


So on one hand you have UAC CEO saying it is still going to be exported, on the other hand you have the Russian official in charge Russian arms exports saying it isn't, along with a bunch of news articles out of India saying they don't want the plane anymore and no reports from India indicating they've changed their mind and want the plane again.

Weight of evidence suggests the UAC CEO is bullshitting.


project458 wrote:Second Russia didn't cancelled anything either, all it said is that it only start mass production when the final engines are ready, 3 or 4 years give or take, and some how thats translates to the Su-57 being cancelled for you? :bang:


A healthy dose of pessimism is recommended when assessing any military procurement program, but especially so with any Russian program, as theirs have a strong history of failure since the fall of the USSR.

Highly advanced military technology programs like the Su-57 do not resume easily after pauses due to lost development and manufacturing inertia, and 3-4 years for the engines to be ready is highly optimistic.
It was well known that Indian financing would be near essential to the budget of the PAK FA program when it began, and with the worsening of the Russian financial situation since the beginning of the program combined with the loss of the Indian funding, it is fair to conclude the 'pause' in production will very likely be permanent.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 21 Aug 2018, 18:35
by tphuang
Let's see, so the Russians continuously make overly optimistic statements about when Su-57 will go into service, how many they will procure and status of Indian participation in the program. And everytime this happens, the timeline gets dragged out longer for the next announcement and Indian's participation gets weaker. And now, people still given credibility to their public statements?
Remember when the Russians said they will have 10 in service by 2015 and 60 by 2020?
http://www.pravdareport.com/russia/econ ... -sukhoi-0/
And now there is an article from Russia side claiming that India will still stick with their project and that's somehow credible? Until India puts their pen on the program or even put their pen on an order, I would find it hard to believe they ever field Su-57. If they were looking at things without tainted glasses, they would see a Russian aerospace industry incapable of building a true fifth generation aircraft by Western fighter and one that could barely even put a 5th generation fighter jet by Russian standard into production. The construction quality and workmanship on Russian aircraft have always been behind the West and the gap has only gotten exponentially larger in the past 25 years. Just looking at the Su-57, I really can't imagine the Sukhoi production lines have gotten much better from the flanker production lines. There is just no way you could mass produce and maintain a stealth aircraft with this little regard toward stealth even in development stage

The Indians must have seen all of this from up close. They would have to be out of their mind to continue investing in this project unless they get full ToT that will truly aid with the MCA project. If I were India, I'd fully turn toward Western countries. Get on the wait list on F-35, negotiation ToT on Rafale and seek French help in dvelopment of MCA. If India wants to be a true world power, it needs to build up its own defense industry and stay commited to the process. Continously giving money to a country that is incapable of developing anything new for 25 years is insanity. Unless of course you think Su-35 counts as something new.

As for S-400, do they seriously think buying the only foreign SAM platform that China has full access to is a good idea?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 21 Aug 2018, 18:43
by project458
knowan wrote:
Weight of evidence suggests the UAC CEO is bullshitting.

project458 wrote:




October summit between Modi and Putin will tell all.

It was well known that Indian financing would be near essential to the budget of the PAK FA program when it began, and with the worsening of the Russian financial situation since the beginning of the program combined with the loss of the Indian funding, it is fair to conclude the 'pause' in production will very likely be permanent.



Watch the news lately ? Russia is running a budget surplus, GDP growth will crack 2+ this year.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 22 Aug 2018, 13:12
by knowan
project458 wrote:Watch the news lately ? Russia is running a budget surplus, GDP growth will crack 2+ this year.


I recommend pessimism with this topic too; current estimates are below 2%, in the 1.5-1.6% region.

The trend isn't looking good:
Image

Such low levels of GDP growth are expected to continue to at least 2020, and may even worse due to Russia's aging and shrinking workforce.

More relevant to my point, the Russian defense budget has been undergoing cuts from 2016 onwards. While the cuts aren't as large as reported by many news outlets, they are still significant for a military still undergoing modernisation.

With the new and very expensive strategic weapon programs on top of those shrinking budgets, it is becoming increasingly difficult to fund the Su-57; with India withdrawing funding, the odds of the program being completed are very low.

With the Armata program being cancelled too, it appears Russia has concluded that attempting to match Western militaries in conventional arms is too expensive, and has instead settled on making sure their nuclear deterrent cannot be easily countered by Western developments.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 22 Aug 2018, 16:02
by element1loop
And Lazarus tripped and came 5th! :P


Source: TASS

Russian senator lauds Su-57 fighter’s ‘success’ in real combat in Syria

Viktor Bondarev recalled that Su-57 pilot prototypes were sent to Russia’s Hmeymim airbase in Syria six months ago

MOSCOW, August 19, 2018. TASS

Russia’s fifth-generation Su-57 fighter jet has proved its worth during combat mission in Syria, a senior Russian lawmaker said on Sunday.

"The Su-57 has successfully accomplished the first stage of state trials and proved all of its designated flight characteristics. It proved its worth not only on testing grounds but also in real combat operations," Viktor Bondarev, chairman of the defense and security committee of Russia’s Federation Council upper parliament house, told journalists.

He recalled that Su-57 pilot prototypes were sent to Russia’s Hmeymim airbase in Syria six months ago.

The Su-57 "has a huge potential for modernization that will be enough for fifty years," he said, adding that the plane’s onboard radionics is built on the principles of open architecture.

"As a matter of fact, this fighter jet has everything necessary to be later developed into a fully automatic unmanned warplane," Bondarev said.

President of Russia’s United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) Yuri Slyusar said earlier in the day UAC and Russia’s defense ministry plan to sign a contract for the first batch of Su-57 fighter jets by the end of this summer, at the 2018 Army forum.

The Russian fifth-generation Su-57 fighter jet features stealth technology with the broad use of composite materials, is capable of maintaining supersonic cruising speed and is furnished with the most advanced onboard radio-electronic equipment, including a powerful onboard computer (the so-called electronic second pilot), the radar system spread across its body and some other innovations, in particular, armament placed inside its fuselage. The plane’s onboard control system is capable of following up to 60 targets and opening fire at 16 of them concurrently. These planes are expected to arrive for the troops in 2019. The pilot batch will comprise 12 Su-57 planes.

http://tass.com/politics/1017795


/Trumpets&Angels
__

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 22 Aug 2018, 18:04
by project458
element1loop wrote:And Lazarus tripped and came 5th! :P


Source: TASS

Russian senator lauds Su-57 fighter’s ‘success’ in real combat in Syria

Viktor Bondarev recalled that Su-57 pilot prototypes were sent to Russia’s Hmeymim airbase in Syria six months ago

MOSCOW, August 19, 2018. TASS

Russia’s fifth-generation Su-57 fighter jet has proved its worth during combat mission in Syria, a senior Russian lawmaker said on Sunday.

"The Su-57 has successfully accomplished the first stage of state trials and proved all of its designated flight characteristics. It proved its worth not only on testing grounds but also in real combat operations," Viktor Bondarev, chairman of the defense and security committee of Russia’s Federation Council upper parliament house, told journalists.

He recalled that Su-57 pilot prototypes were sent to Russia’s Hmeymim airbase in Syria six months ago.

The Su-57 "has a huge potential for modernization that will be enough for fifty years," he said, adding that the plane’s onboard radionics is built on the principles of open architecture.

"As a matter of fact, this fighter jet has everything necessary to be later developed into a fully automatic unmanned warplane," Bondarev said.

President of Russia’s United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) Yuri Slyusar said earlier in the day UAC and Russia’s defense ministry plan to sign a contract for the first batch of Su-57 fighter jets by the end of this summer, at the 2018 Army forum.

The Russian fifth-generation Su-57 fighter jet features stealth technology with the broad use of composite materials, is capable of maintaining supersonic cruising speed and is furnished with the most advanced onboard radio-electronic equipment, including a powerful onboard computer (the so-called electronic second pilot), the radar system spread across its body and some other innovations, in particular, armament placed inside its fuselage. The plane’s onboard control system is capable of following up to 60 targets and opening fire at 16 of them concurrently. These planes are expected to arrive for the troops in 2019. The pilot batch will comprise 12 Su-57 planes.

http://tass.com/politics/1017795


/Trumpets&Angels
__



I guess your opinion or B.S media sources trumps the words of the Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Air Force? Right ?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 22 Aug 2018, 19:28
by milosh
knowan wrote:With the new and very expensive strategic weapon programs on top of those shrinking budgets, it is becoming increasingly difficult to fund the Su-57; with India withdrawing funding, the odds of the program being completed are very low.


PAK-FA airframe is more less done. So now they are developing engines, sensors and weapons. All this they can later export to Flanker users as upgrade. So economically wise PAK-FA program isn't waste.

Also Russian economy after 2020 isn't easy to project. They are building couple of pipeline, invest heavily in agriculture.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 23 Aug 2018, 00:33
by popcorn
Flanker user? The Indians, maybe? :D

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 23 Aug 2018, 01:31
by Corsair1963
project458 wrote:

October summit between Modi and Putin will tell all.



Yeah, when Modi tells Putin he has decided to go with the F-35 over the Su-57..... :wink:

F35IN.jpg

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 23 Aug 2018, 04:21
by element1loop
project458 wrote:
TASS wrote: ... Russia’s fifth-generation Su-57 fighter jet has proved its worth during combat mission in Syria ...


I guess your opinion or B.S media sources trumps the words of the Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Air Force? Right ?


Well the T50 was a game-changer in Syria, it rocked, and I really can't deny the undeniable, it was the best propaganda-machine and the most immature unarmed 6th-gen prototype that visited there ... for 48 hours ... of rt photo-ops.

Based on that, I'd buy it! :P :mrgreen:

--

PS: Can we cut a deal with olive oil shipments, or fresh dates and almonds?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 23 Aug 2018, 19:39
by milosh
popcorn wrote:Flanker user? The Indians, maybe? :D


Indians already confirm they want Su-57 tech (engine and radar) for Super 30 program. They had offer for 117 engines and Fazotron AESA they decline.

Also don't forget Chinese they got Su-35 to be able to buy 117 in bigger numbers so type-30 is surely something they will like to get especially for J-20.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 23 Aug 2018, 20:51
by krieger22
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2018/08 ... oject.html

First official admission that India has left the FGFA program. By the head of the Russian Federal Service for Military and Technical Cooperation, no less.

Responding to a question from Livefist, Dmitri Shugaev, director of Russia’s FSMTC — which controls Moscow’s arms exports — said, “Yes it’s true India has temporarily stopped participation in the FGFA project. Russia has advanced far in the Su-57 tests and it has orders from the Russian MoD.”


Shugaev minced no words when he said he understood the ‘comprehensive issue from a financial standpoint’ but said he was hopeful still of a resolution.

“We have not shut any doors, and understand it is a comprehensive issue from a financial standpoint. If and when India is ready to return to this project, we are willing to negotiate terms and format. This project could see different forms of cooperation in the future — a JV or technological cooperation. The FGFA was a joint project for a joint product,” he told Livefist.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 25 Aug 2018, 03:12
by project458
^^^^^
B.S

In other news VKS just ordered two more Su-57, which brings the total number under contract to 15, with more expect in the near future.

http://www.interfax.ru/interview/626416
http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/5480249

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 25 Aug 2018, 04:32
by firebase99
Frankly, I wouldnt be surprised if any of the 10 SU-57's that can actually....I've lost the word Im looking for, FLY, thats it, fly never flew again. Its a failed museum piece at best.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 25 Aug 2018, 06:13
by mk82
project458 wrote:In other news VKS just ordered two more Su-57, which brings the total number under contract to 15, with more expect in the near future


Oh wow...15! :roll:

Wake me up when there are 100 SU 57s......

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 25 Aug 2018, 06:38
by charlielima223
project458 wrote:In other news VKS just ordered two more Su-57, which brings the total number under contract to 15, with more expect in the near future.


On the other end, a more successful and technologically advanced aircraft is at a production rate of 7 aircraft per month and has additional international facilities in Italy and Japan... also just this year back in June, the 300th aircraft was delivered to Hill AFB.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 25 Aug 2018, 14:13
by tphuang
milosh wrote:
popcorn wrote:Flanker user? The Indians, maybe? :D


Indians already confirm they want Su-57 tech (engine and radar) for Super 30 program. They had offer for 117 engines and Fazotron AESA they decline.

Also don't forget Chinese they got Su-35 to be able to buy 117 in bigger numbers so type-30 is surely something they will like to get especially for J-20.


China is not a lab mouse. You will notice that they did not order Su-35 until it entered service with RuAF. Good reason for that. China will not order anything from Russia under the assumption that it will be ready in 3 or 5 years because the Russians never develop anything on time. They'd only order Type 30 if it achieves some level of initial reliability and WS-15 isn't close to reaching that target yet. Based on WS-15 progress, I think that's fairly unlikely.

There is no point ordering an engine if it stalls in the air for every 100 hours of flight time.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 25 Aug 2018, 16:40
by knowan
Russia's plans for Su-57 production has them being built at a very slow rate of just a couple per year, with the last of 12 or 15 planes built in 2022.

By 2022-23, the F-35 will be onto Block 4 with at least 700-800 built.

And it is pretty damn unlikely the izdeliye 30 will be ready by 2023; engines like that take at least 10 years to go from first flight to being mature enough for service, so 2027-2028 is much more realistic.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 26 Aug 2018, 04:33
by element1loop
It ain't fast 'n easy creating the world's first 6th-gen fighter! ... fricken haters! :lmao:

Looks like the indignity of simply cancelling it was a bit too much ... so ... drip-feed it on to a junk-heap instead ... oh, and make a Kremlin vaporware video of something shinier and awesomer to come ... :mrgreen:

.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 27 Aug 2018, 03:55
by Corsair1963
knowan wrote:Russia's plans for Su-57 production has them being built at a very slow rate of just a couple per year, with the last of 12 or 15 planes built in 2022.

By 2022-23, the F-35 will be onto Block 4 with at least 700-800 built.

And it is pretty damn unlikely the izdeliye 30 will be ready by 2023; engines like that take at least 10 years to go from first flight to being mature enough for service, so 2027-2028 is much more realistic.



Which, is why that I have suggested many times. That Russia may have to consider "acquiring" the FC-31 (J-31) from China!

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 27 Aug 2018, 05:18
by charlielima223
Propaganda... not so much at its finest but they definitely try and play up the PAKFA in a few bits...


Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 27 Aug 2018, 05:33
by Corsair1963
project458 wrote:


I also suggested many times that's about as likely as Russia buying F-35s, not in this universe but your welcome to believe whatever you want lol



So, you admit that Russia is going to become a minor Military Power in the coming years. As without a Stealth Fighter that she can produce in numbers. That is in fact what she would become..... :shock:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2018, 03:50
by firebase99
Ruskies are playing this very smart. With so few of these Raptor Killers built, even fewer flying, the odds of one getting a Slammer or two in the snot locker are greatly diminished. Well played indeed.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2018, 06:30
by Corsair1963
The US has already produced over 300 F-35's and that number is rapidly climbing. So, Putin is going to have to get on the stick very soon or Russia is going to be left in the dust...... :wink:



Which, will become so obvious that even Sputnik and RT won't be able to spin that one! :shock:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2018, 08:32
by Corsair1963
This should put things into perspective..........



QUOTE: The map above shows the size of the Russian Economy (GDP) relative to Western European countries at nominal exchange rates.

On this basis the Russia economy is worth $1.4 trillion, making it the 12th largest in the world. Roughly equivalent to the GDPs of the Netherlands ($824 billion), Belgium ($492 billion) and Luxembourg ($64 billion) combined.



Yet, these 3 countries have a combined population of only 29 million compared to Russia’s 145 million.


https://merchantmachine.co.uk/russian-i ... rn-europe/

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2018, 11:44
by zero-one
Corsair1963 wrote:
Yet, these 3 countries have a combined population of only 29 million compared to Russia’s 145 million.


https://merchantmachine.co.uk/russian-i ... rn-europe/


I noticed that this was also written:

However, nominal GDP is not always the best measure of these things, as it values the economy based on the exchange rate with the US dollar, rather than what you can actually buy in local currency.

Therefore, a better measure is to use purchasing power parity (PPP). On this basis, Russia looks much better with an economy of $4 trillion, making it the 6th largest in the world.

This is far larger than the combined PPP GDPs of the Netherlands ($908 billion), Belgium ($529 billion) and Luxembourg ($64 billion), which don’t really change that much.


The way I undersand it is, nominal GDP is better used to measure your country's ability to buy from other countries
While PPP is a better to measure your country's ability to buy your own products.

Since Russia's armed forces are heavily self reliant. GDP (PPP) would be a more accurate barometer of their true financial capabilities.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2018, 11:54
by madrat
F-35 will have difficulty ever downing an Su-57. There simply are too few of them to mathematically suggest they'd ever meet in the air.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2018, 15:36
by botsing
zero-one wrote:The way I undersand it is, nominal GDP is better used to measure your country's ability to buy from other countries
While PPP is a better to measure your country's ability to buy your own products.

Since Russia's armed forces are heavily self reliant. GDP (PPP) would be a more accurate barometer of their true financial capabilities.

What I think is interesting is a comparison with cars.

There is little difference between the pricing of their popular Russian build Lada cars and foreign cars of the same class. So apparently to have any chance of competition versus foreign cars they need an investment big enough that their cars end up in the same price range.

I highly doubt this will be different for Su-57 where R&D will be even more expensive since they cannot buy competitive "off the shelf" technology from foreign countries like they do for their cars.

With this in mind it might actually be cheaper for the Benelux (Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg) to develop a new fighter than Russia. I guess we need to ask Fokker to build a new plane. :mrgreen:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2018, 20:25
by mixelflick
charlielima223 wrote:Propaganda... not so much at its finest but they definitely try and play up the PAKFA in a few bits...



It's "completely invisible to foreign radar systems...".

Who knew? :mrgreen:

She's awful pretty though, with sparkling eyes, flawless skin and long legs. So much so, you almost forget every word coming out of the pilots/company's lips is utter BS. And 15 total aircraft, not all of which are flyable? No problem comrade, have another shot of vodka...

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2018, 21:22
by vilters
See?

Put a fine woman in the picture.
All eyes turning to the lady. :devil:

And PAK FA becomes completely stealthy.

Stealth is easy, why did we take so long? :D

It's all about trick the eyes anyway. LOL.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Aug 2018, 04:43
by elvis1
I watched it three times before I even realized there were subtitles. . . . . or jets in the background for that matter.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Aug 2018, 05:07
by element1loop
madrat wrote:F-35 will have difficulty ever downing an Su-57. There simply are too few of them to mathematically suggest they'd ever meet in the air.


:lmao: :notworthy:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 31 Aug 2018, 15:24
by mixelflick
elvis1 wrote:I watched it three times before I even realized there were subtitles. . . . . or jets in the background for that matter.


LOL

Brilliant strategy for SU-57: Highlight pretty ladies, SU-57 becomes stealthy. 5 stars for creativity. Since they're so focused on getting to the merge though, I'd like to suggest one better: Topless Female Pilots.

No F-15, 16, 18, 22, 35 driver can resist staring at a nice, perky pair. Comrade bOObs simply selects an Archer or two, and presto - SU-57 prevails. They'll simply use our "situational awareness" against us... :mrgreen:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2018, 23:35
by nutshell
Send a handful of these girls in every AF base and russiam air superiority is achieved.

Sign me up for the loosing side

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 13 Sep 2018, 02:59
by weasel1962
That's a sneaky way to bring fighters into WVR. Hi-res sniper pods (or female pilots/eunuchs) to counter.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 24 Sep 2018, 22:48
by project458
peek a boo , I see the F-22 8)

Image

Image


Images from Su-35 IRST btw :mrgreen:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 24 Sep 2018, 22:50
by sprstdlyscottsmn
That's not an F-22

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 24 Sep 2018, 23:05
by project458
Yes, it is look at the wings, and don't be surprised if the rafale can do it, Su-35 sure as hell can :D

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 24 Sep 2018, 23:17
by sprstdlyscottsmn
I am looking at the wings, and the H-stabs. Looks more like a J-31 than an F-22.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 24 Sep 2018, 23:25
by project458
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:I am looking at the wings, and the H-stabs. Looks more like a J-31 than an F-22.



Well thanks for proving my point, its clearly an F-22, unless there are other 5th gen fighters operating in the Syrian Airspace that we don't know about, that also happens to look like a F-22 :lmao:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 24 Sep 2018, 23:40
by popcorn
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:I am looking at the wings, and the H-stabs. Looks more like a J-31 than an F-22.

At first glance doesn't look like a Raptor... Upon further examination, it looks even less like a Raptor. .. very poor quality and crude IRST tech

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 24 Sep 2018, 23:53
by citanon
project458 wrote:
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:I am looking at the wings, and the H-stabs. Looks more like a J-31 than an F-22.



Well thanks for proving my point, its clearly an F-22, unless there are other 5th gen fighters operating in the Syrian Airspace that we don't know about, that also happens to look like a F-22 :lmao:


You got to do better than that to earn your paycheck from the Ministry of Trolls, comrade Project.... :mrgreen:

Also, love the white box pasted onto a shot of the ground. Who did this guy get to Photoshop this? A middle schooler could have done a better job.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2018, 01:45
by project458

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2018, 02:09
by falcon.16
It´s a fake. Last year it was same story.

https://thenewsrep.com/96030/while-russ ... airy-tale/

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2018, 02:45
by project458
Last year there was no photos this time there is, and more probably will come to surface in the next few years.


and I don't get the denial? both Typhoon and Rafale have done it in the past, and Su-35 is roughly on same level as those two , and superior in some areas.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2018, 03:20
by popcorn
Having a really crappy IRST image of unknown provenance is the issue. The USAF has previously confirmed what jets were involved. If that came from the Su-35, the only conclusion is that Russia's most advanced jet has really crappy IRST capability.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2018, 05:45
by wrightwing
project458 wrote:Denial is the first step :D


https://defence-blog.com/news/russian-f ... syria.html


Believing that image is an F-22, is the first step of jackassery.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2018, 08:29
by charlielima223
project458 wrote:
Image

Image


Images from Su-35 IRST btw


Looking at this image one can clearly see that the image is of poor quality... like stuff you'd see on a supermarket tabloid bad. That or it is a photoshop image of some kind. Looking comparing that to other images taken from other IRST or FLIR systems, it proves the point that Russian imagery technology is well behind that of the West IF this is a real image

Image

Image

Last I checked the IRST for the Su-35 is mounted on top the nose. This image of the supposed F-22 appears that the backdrop is the ground. Wouldn't this mean that the Su-35 is pointing its nose down at the supposed F-22?

Also IF this were real (highly doubt it judging by the quality... and the individual who posted), it is mostly likely that the F-22 was already aware of the Su-35 and that another F-22 was already tracking the Su-35 and its partner. Also Russian state controlled media has been known to make some rather wild claims from time to time... like the PAKFA being developed as a 6th generation fighter or that Russian aircraft making precision strikes in Syria

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2018, 10:16
by element1loop
charlielima223 wrote:Wouldn't this mean that the Su-35 is pointing its nose down at the supposed F-22?


They were inverted ... keeping up 'international relations'. :mrgreen:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2018, 10:21
by element1loop
Image

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2018, 10:46
by falcon.16
project458 wrote:Last year there was no photos this time there is, and more probably will come to surface in the next few years.


and I don't get the denial? both Typhoon and Rafale have done it in the past, and Su-35 is roughly on same level as those two , and superior in some areas.


I think you did not understand what I meant.

I wanted to say that the visual contact could be produced, and from there they could take pictures between both planes, but what there was no interception as the link says.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2018, 14:40
by knowan
The extremely low quality of the IR picture suggests it is faked.

That sort of propaganda is only useful for fooling the 'useful idiot' fanboys that accept this sort of thing at face value.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2018, 14:51
by mixelflick
How do you say "desperate" in Russian? :mrgreen:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2018, 14:55
by mk82
Saw the “lock on” photos. Looks photoshopped.

Even if the Russian story is true and the supposedly sh*t hot SU 35 pilot is playing Top Gunski with a F-22.....did the SU 35 pilot notice the F-22’s wingman on a high perch.....ready to shove an AIM 9X or an AMRAAM up the SU 35’s/Babushka’s **** should the SU 35 do something really stupid and hostile? How F-22 number 3 and 4 flanking the oblivious SU 35? No..................too bad!!!!! :devil:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2018, 15:01
by mk82
mixelflick wrote:How do you say "desperate" in Russian? :mrgreen:


Cyka Bylat :mrgreen:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2018, 15:08
by marsavian
All these stories are just designed to help Flanker sales, look we can spot stealth fighters if they get close enough when shadowing us in an escort ! ;)

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 26 Sep 2018, 00:18
by Corsair1963
Russia has pretty much given the future Non-Western Fighter Market to the Chinese...... :shock:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 26 Sep 2018, 14:40
by mixelflick
Corsair1963 wrote:Russia has pretty much given the future Non-Western Fighter Market to the Chinese...... :shock:


Very true..

They should have pursued the LFMI project, not PAK FA. But as another pro Russian poster said here, they build big fighters with lots of gas to protect the motherland. That's all well and good, but big aircraft usually cost more than small, and doubly so when they're stealth. So you arrive at PAK FA, and maybe if there's any money left over a Mig-31 replacement. Neither of which are particularly attractive for export IMO (a mature PAK FA is going to be incredibly expensive, specially if made in small numbers).

So where does this leave Russia insofar as export orders? Flankers, Flankers and more Flankers. Fine airframe, but going to be a sitting duck for 5th gens which are now proliferating. Nobody knows what the J-31 will cost, but even if it's incrementally more expensive than an SU-35 it's justified IMO given its stealth/LO features. I think any air force investing in Flankers from this point forward is nuts. China and the SU-35 is the exception given they really want its engines.

Mig and LFMI was the golden opportunity, but that ship has sailed and there's nothing the Russians can do now. Frankly, I don't think Russia will be selling many combat aircraft beyond 2025, maybe even sooner. The Mig 35 is an even bigger joke than the Flanker, I'm surprised Russia is even ordering any. It's heyday has long passed...

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 26 Sep 2018, 18:44
by milosh
Corsair1963 wrote:Russia has pretty much given the future Non-Western Fighter Market to the Chinese...... :shock:


But how big that market is? If you look only India is big buyer on that market and I really doubt India will buy Chinese fighters.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 27 Sep 2018, 02:37
by Corsair1963
milosh wrote:
But how big that market is? If you look only India is big buyer on that market and I really doubt India will buy Chinese fighters.


The market would be modest in size no doubt. Yet, it would help drive down costs for China's own fighters. Plus, it would open the door in many cases to other Chinese Military Hardware!


Also, speaking of fighter market. I've often said the FC-31 (J-31) could be an option for Russia. Which, will need a respectable number of F-35 Class Strike Fighters in the coming 10-20 years. So, maybe such a market isn't so small after all???

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 27 Sep 2018, 04:40
by babybat{}.net
Corsair1963 wrote:Also, speaking of fighter market. I've often said the FC-31 (J-31) could be an option for Russia.


J-31 is too simple and imperfect for Russia. Even the late Soviet designs of light fighters surpass it in most key parameters. At the moment, even the Chinese Ministry of defense, known for being ready to buy prototypes under the guise of serial as a propaganda, did not show interest in the j-31.

Fortunately, China still does not have a strong independent aviation school. The best that they have, was designed by Russian and Ukrainian specialists on the basis of old Soviet projects.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 27 Sep 2018, 04:50
by Corsair1963
babybat{}.net wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Also, speaking of fighter market. I've often said the FC-31 (J-31) could be an option for Russia.


J-31 is too simple and imperfect for Russia. Even the late Soviet designs of light fighters surpass it in most key parameters. At the moment, even the Chinese Ministry of defense, known for being ready to buy prototypes under the guise of serial as a propaganda, did not show interest in the j-31.

Fortunately, China still does not have a strong independent aviation school. The best that they have, was designed by Russian and Ukrainian specialists on the basis of old Soviet projects.



So, what is Russia going to do for the Stealth Fighter over the next 20+ years???

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 27 Sep 2018, 05:05
by babybat{}.net
Corsair1963 wrote:So, what is Russia going to do for the Stealth Fighter over the next 20+ years???


From what you can find in open sources, it is:
"Smart skin" (a set of transmitter-receiver elements distributed over the surface);
Transition form radioelectrinic to radiophotonic locators;
Active "stealth" systems;
Integrated electronic warfare and counteraction compresses;
Group intelligence algorithms;
Algorithms of multi-static location.

You can try to combine this open information, and get some conception of the Russian vision of promising aviation complexes.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 27 Sep 2018, 06:47
by Corsair1963
babybat{}.net wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:So, what is Russia going to do for the Stealth Fighter over the next 20+ years???


From what you can find in open sources, it is:
"Smart skin" (a set of transmitter-receiver elements distributed over the surface);
Transition form radioelectrinic to radiophotonic locators;
Active "stealth" systems;
Integrated electronic warfare and counteraction compresses;
Group intelligence algorithms;
Algorithms of multi-static location.

You can try to combine this open information, and get some conception of the Russian vision of promising aviation complexes.


So, Russia isn't going to have any manned 5th Generation Fighters? While, the world has thousands! :?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 27 Sep 2018, 15:06
by babybat{}.net
Corsair1963 wrote:So, Russia isn't going to have any manned 5th Generation Fighters? While, the world has thousands! :?


Last I heard - simulations show the optimal ratio of manned to unmanned fighters 1:3

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 27 Sep 2018, 15:08
by botsing
babybat{}.net wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:So, Russia isn't going to have any manned 5th Generation Fighters? While, the world has thousands! :?


Last I heard - simulations show the optimal ratio of manned to unmanned fighters 1:3

Which simulations? What were the parameters and objectives of those simulations?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 27 Sep 2018, 15:18
by babybat{}.net
botsing wrote:Which simulations? What were the parameters and objectives of those simulations?


Sorry, but I did not participate in these works, so I do not have detailed information, and if I did, I would not have the right to disclose it(
This ratio was told by KRET employees at MAKS-2017.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 27 Sep 2018, 16:19
by marsavian
Russia is claiming the 300 km R-37M aam is in final stages of development and will ultimately equip the Su-57.

https://www.rt.com/news/439553-russia-l ... e-missile/

https://iz.ru/755046/aleksandr-kruglov- ... dlia-su-57

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 27 Sep 2018, 16:38
by botsing
babybat{}.net wrote:
botsing wrote:Which simulations? What were the parameters and objectives of those simulations?


Sorry, but I did not participate in these works, so I do not have detailed information, and if I did, I would not have the right to disclose it(
This ratio was told by KRET employees at MAKS-2017.

So in other words: just hearsay from a guy on the internet?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 27 Sep 2018, 16:43
by sprstdlyscottsmn
As an external weapon.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 28 Sep 2018, 03:39
by babybat{}.net
botsing wrote:So in other words: just hearsay from a guy on the internet?


Sorry, but you can use Google to find, what do MAKS and KRET mean.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 28 Sep 2018, 10:32
by element1loop
babybat{}.net wrote:
botsing wrote:So in other words: just hearsay from a guy on the internet?


Sorry, but you can use Google to find, what do MAKS and KRET mean.


babybat, I notice you've not made comment in this thread about the alleged Su35 IRST image of what is clearly not an F-22A.

Just curious, would you readily concede it's a fake?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 28 Sep 2018, 12:23
by babybat{}.net
element1loop wrote:Just curious, would you readily concede it's a fake?


Of course it's fake.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 28 Sep 2018, 16:14
by knowan
lrrpf52 wrote:Are you that gullible to believe such a retarded story from an ignoramus who posted it on his Instagram account?

Go ahead and do a search for "F-22 top view" and compare it with that photo.

Look closely at the clipped F-22 wings and Horizontal stabs, then look at this abortion of a terrible image editing.

What differences do you see?

A. I see no differences, the 2 are exactly alike!

B. This is obviously a model of a YF-22 or something else.


Nice work! I thought there was something iffy about the wings and horizontal stabs in the 'F-22 IRST' image, but couldn't quite place what was wrong.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 28 Sep 2018, 17:09
by mixelflick
It's no mystery what happened with this image the SU-35 captured. In fact, there's a rather logical explanation..

The USAF is flying YF-22A's over Syria.... :mrgreen:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Sep 2018, 20:06
by XanderCrews
project458 wrote:Denial is the first step :D


https://defence-blog.com/news/russian-f ... syria.html



When your propoganda is so crappy you accidently use the YF-22 prototype

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 30 Sep 2018, 06:32
by eloise
MFi7rlSNmk4%255B1%255D.jpg

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 30 Sep 2018, 13:00
by duplex
marsavian wrote:Russia is claiming the 300 km R-37M aam is in final stages of development and will ultimately equip the Su-57.

https://www.rt.com/news/439553-russia-l ... e-missile/

https://iz.ru/755046/aleksandr-kruglov- ... dlia-su-57


The vast majority of Russian claims are propaganda material for domestic consumption ..

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/21/russian ... ter%7Cmain

Big difference between what Russia claims and what it achieves !

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 30 Sep 2018, 14:04
by mixelflick
marsavian wrote:Russia is claiming the 300 km R-37M aam is in final stages of development and will ultimately equip the Su-57.

https://www.rt.com/news/439553-russia-l ... e-missile/

https://iz.ru/755046/aleksandr-kruglov- ... dlia-su-57


So they'll lug a big, heavy, external weapon around with a 300km range - effective against a stealth target (IF they can find it) at a MUCH shorter range. And in the process, degrade whatever little stealth the SU-57 has.

Brilliant...

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 30 Sep 2018, 15:16
by babybat{}.net
mixelflick wrote:So they'll lug a big, heavy, external weapon around with a 300km range - effective against a stealth target (IF they can find it) at a MUCH shorter range.


Don't read Russian tabloids)
LRAAM is a weapon against AWACS, JSTARS, Mercury, tankers etc.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 27 Oct 2018, 09:58
by marsavian
Came across quite a detailed appraisal of the Su-57 on Quora which I thought was worth sharing.

https://www.quora.com/Was-the-stealth-f ... ust-a-ruse

Mike McAuliffe -

There are a lot of elements which I would not include in the manner which UA/Sukhoi have in a stealth design. The IRST would have to be completely modified towards an EOSS level with likely placement in the wings to both accomodate supercruise and proper windscreen/nose blending.

You would not generally want to have a separate canopy break in a production stealth airframe.

Production quality overall seems to be going up on the later airframes (which I consider to still be a proper, FSD level, test fleet, unlike the F-35 equivalent which is LRIP Blk.0 production in an unstable testbed configuration…).

But if you note things like this-

At 0:14, you are seeing side look radar as a separate, inset, panel; onventional pitots for the AOA and airspeed system; use of puttied fasteners on the vortex flap as a general lack of design finesse in the LOX or fuel port which should ideally be inside the NLG or weapons bays. Even the chine and the radom shot signs of rough fitting as separate components which could theoretically effect both direct signature and leaks into sensitive RF bays. We literally cast thermoset resin parts which are blended to the airframe skeleton, early in the production process and required the APG-77 (as it’s URR precursor) to have incredible AESA antenna life for the simple reason that you have to cut the nose off to get access to the pressurized antenna volume.

If you move down the airframe, the boundary layer separator inlet and LEVCON fairing could be a little better designed (superior alignment controls, buried behind a splitter or even lost down the DSI intake). I am not a fan of moving structural surfaces on the LE of a stealth platform. It’s bad enough when you do it to the wings but when you put them in a multizone break between upper and lower fuselage chine boundaries, you invite all kinds of creeping/surface wave interactions from both directions up and down the fuselage. I understand their purpose in being there on a wing planform which has more in common with the YF-22 than the F-22 (speed over turn), but you can look at the A/FX and see that we managed to get similar ‘notch’ vortice generation without the potential disaster of an articulated surface in front of an inlet. I suppose it’s better than a canard…

Speaking of turbo paths… Those are some pretty healthy intakes with serious toe out to mask the downstream nacelles and provide decent ram recovery as boundary escape from the fuselage. The problem is that the tunnel inbetween is almost purely vertical which means that, unless you are operating exclusively over a friendly GCI environment, anything lookin up is going to get a multipath return that is simply too much of an inherent design compromise to the aiframe configuration to be ameliorated. Wide pancake for weapons bays = no room for RAM appliques. The YF-23 bypassed this by pushing the engines above the wing and pushing the weapons bays ahead of the airfoil but nothing with a ‘super agility +’ rating is going to be doing that with an almost pure delta sweep of 46.5`.

I would need to have a close look at the jet’s technical drawings to be sure but IMO, their is not enough serpentine in the inlet trunking to mask the engine face, even with the very long ducts and a probable blocker. By itself, this is a disaster for FQ VLO and indicates a serious bias away from VLO towards maximum aerodynamic and weapons system performance (long LRAAM like the Izdeliye 810).

Do the Russians know something about stealth engineering as BVR combat that we don’t? These are serious (MiG-31 level) configurationally permanent compromises which make very little sense when looked at from a pure VLO design standpoint, especially given all the specialist variants of ‘multirole’ (penetrating) ordnance that have been developed specifically for the jet.

The vertical tail fairings, engine nacelles and boat tail fairing are all very tightly packaged. I would expect a lot of edge glint and multi aspect (Mie _and_ Rayleigh) scattering from tunnel effects. I’m not an aerodynamicist but the jet has got a really broad, thick, a$$ end and that’s seldom good when it comes to wavedrag (note: The F-22 is a ‘triumph of thrust over drag’ so it’s not like we are perfect at this either).

Finally, coatings. My understanding is that it’s functionally impossible to unify impedance loadings along multiple panel boundaries and material types and so we paint our jets with a silver based conductive prime coat which treats the entire airframe as a surface duct for travelling waves and then ‘top coat’ over this with something that is nano engineered to have specific RF cancellation behaviors. It is this combination of base-metallic and top RAM coats which gives jets like the F-22 and F-35 their oddly reflective/dusky look.

The camouflage on the Su-57 looks like paint. It’s crudely applied in some areas and it’s very diversity of color patterning means it’s going to be subject to divergent thermal as well as RF behaviors, due to the size of pigment balls. Now, I know the Russians have been pushing really hard into molecular chemistry as their own pursuit of third generation stealth capabilities. There are documentaries covering the Su-57 on Youtube which highlight this ‘Secret Lab Work’ effort. But the jet at the moment does not look like it is using full spectrum integration of the shape-shape-shape+materials paradigm with careful surface designs integrated with optimized coatings specific to RF band (BVR) specific stealth as we now know it.

Quantum ‘Sunflower’ radar? Advanced Opto-Acoustic tracking networks? Or simply a different vision of how 21st Century Air Defense is to be executed in the future? When everyone and their mother’s uncle was maneuvering to end the F-22 program without making too big a deal about it, Michael O’Hanlon of Brookings Institute fame came up with a clever interpretation of number of F-15s ‘at the coal face’ of the 1991 air campaign as something like 90 jets in-theater and 60 available on any given day.

About five years earlier, LMTAS got a ‘note in the night’ which was so worrisome that the VP brought in the engineering staff on the weekend and told them to dump the faceted Su-27 design that was then Lockheed’s leading solution to the ATF problem and replace it with one which would eventually look like a cubist F-15.

IMO, something happened, in the intervening years, that changed the paradigm. It may have been an improved material or system. It may have been a vulnerability to a specific waveform or even something exotic like multistatics or quantum stuff, related to AESA. But stealth got turned on it’s head in that time frame and the idea of penetrating OCA as a HVA specialist sniping asset went with it, to be replaced by something with a more balanced design point as SC&M (Super Cruise & Maneuver) emphasis: the short lunge rather than the long jog.

I find it amazing that the Russians have had a similar epiphanic moment with similar numbers conclusions (60 now, 160 of the ‘second generation’). I do not believe that the AL-41F1 (MiG-1.44, vari-cycle) vs. AL-41 TVS-117 (AL-31FM, Su-35) engine has anything directly to do with it.

It could be economic. The Squeeze consequences to the Crimean and Donbass reactions to Western meddling in Ukrainian politics could really be beginning to effect Russian strategic theory, especially if they foresee a likely war before the 2025–2027 period when the production system is ready.

But I don’t believe that’s the case. The Russians are much better than we are at making quiet progress, using existing systems/upgrades as testbeds for a new design and then integrating established and new systems together without as much fuss as we ‘clean sheet’ always seem to encounter.

I think there has been a major change in the way the warfighter’s are expected to interact and while RFLO still has a considerable part to play in that, it may well be that manned systems are no longer seen as viable guarantors of ‘edge’ sufficient to ensure victory.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 28 Oct 2018, 00:43
by knowan
marsavian wrote:Came across quite a detailed appraisal of the Su-57 on Quora which I thought was worth sharing.

https://www.quora.com/Was-the-stealth-f ... ust-a-ruse


Quora is 99% sh*t, but there is the occasional post by people that actually know what they're talking about, like this one.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Oct 2018, 14:49
by mixelflick
Forget who here said it, but "F-22 is a triumph of thrust over drag"

Really?

It looks plenty sleek to me. Granted the fuselage is boxy but also flat, leading to improved lift. The F-35 is boxy as hell too, and that has plenty of thrust, just not so much relative to weight as the F-22.

I suppose like everything else the drag figures are classified. Thought the real game was lift to drag ratio though?? I could be wrong. Still, mach 1.8 supercruise ain't too shabby (and that's what's been admitted to, not what's classified..

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 19 Jul 2019, 01:52
by hythelday
I have to admit that I never scrutinized Su-"Flatfish"-57, but I have recently noticed that intakes are concave (at least on the T-50-9 they are)

Image

Any idea as to why?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 19 Jul 2019, 15:16
by mixelflick
So Vlad surprisingly has ordered 76 SU-57's, to be delivered by 2028 if I understand correctly.

Several possibilities..

1.) Flanker vs F-15C/F-22 dances didn't turn out so well over Syria
2.) Intelligence reports that the US 6th gen is moving faster than expected
3.) They plan to sell this thing to anyone and everyone with the money
4.) Intelligence reports of just how effective Israel's F-35's are..

Of those possibilities, I think #3 is most likely (although I also think 1 and 4 are also on the table). A token Russian order (on the cheap, supposedly after Putin negotiated the price down) for 76 would signal confidence to foreign buyers. Already there have been reports of Russia pushing it on Turkey, India and China. If I'm not mistaken, Vietnam and the UAE may be in the mix too.

They can't continue to sell Flankers forever, and I rather doubt anyone will be ordering the Mig-35, given it'll be a 4++ gen in a 5th gen world. I say China bites first, but the order will be small. India really needs it, but not if it isn't up to snuff being VLO. Turkey comes behind China, as they continue to look East.

May well in fact turn out to be quite a success for them...

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 19 Jul 2019, 15:30
by sprstdlyscottsmn
I doubt China will bite. Unlike India and Turkey they have a legitimate native 5th Gen in the J-20

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 19 Jul 2019, 16:08
by wrightwing
I can't imagine China being interested, unless they're still having issues getting engines developed. Even then it's doubtful.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 19 Jul 2019, 17:43
by milosh
wrightwing wrote:I can't imagine China being interested, unless they're still having issues getting engines developed. Even then it's doubtful.


J-20 is design to be pure A-A 5gen fighter, narrow weapon bay to be precise maybe even narrower then F-22 weapon bay. So Su-57 would be nice for China as stealth fighter bomber:

https://external-preview.redd.it/cfAxJw ... 057a7180ab

that is one big missile, around 800kg heavy and it can carry four of them.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 19 Jul 2019, 18:16
by fidgetspinner
https://tass.com/defense/1069215

Seems at the moment the turks are only getting offered the su-35s for now.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 19 Jul 2019, 20:06
by swiss
fidgetspinner wrote:https://tass.com/defense/1069215

Seems at the moment the turks are only getting offered the su-35s for now.


Also nice to see that Tass confirms the Su-35 has empty weight of 19 tons.

The Su-35S weighs 19 tonnes, has a service ceiling of 20,000 meters, can develop a maximum speed of 2,500 km/h and has a crew of one pilot. The fighter jet’s armament includes a 30mm aircraft gun, up to 8 tonnes of the weapon payload (missiles and bombs of various types) on 12 underwing hardpoints.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 20 Jul 2019, 13:41
by mixelflick
milosh wrote:
wrightwing wrote:I can't imagine China being interested, unless they're still having issues getting engines developed. Even then it's doubtful.


J-20 is design to be pure A-A 5gen fighter, narrow weapon bay to be precise maybe even narrower then F-22 weapon bay. So Su-57 would be nice for China as stealth fighter bomber:

https://external-preview.redd.it/cfAxJw ... 057a7180ab

that is one big missile, around 800kg heavy and it can carry four of them.


Why you'd want a fighter sized aircraft to carry these, I don't know. I thought the TU-160 was designed for this purpose, given it isn't stealth? Plenty of range to those missiles, so no need to get close to the target. Otherwise, the SU-57 I think is struggling to find a mission. The SU-35 can do 90% of what the SU-57 can, and do it considerably cheaper...

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 20 Jul 2019, 14:31
by milosh
mixelflick wrote:
milosh wrote:
wrightwing wrote:I can't imagine China being interested, unless they're still having issues getting engines developed. Even then it's doubtful.


J-20 is design to be pure A-A 5gen fighter, narrow weapon bay to be precise maybe even narrower then F-22 weapon bay. So Su-57 would be nice for China as stealth fighter bomber:

https://external-preview.redd.it/cfAxJw ... 057a7180ab

that is one big missile, around 800kg heavy and it can carry four of them.


Why you'd want a fighter sized aircraft to carry these, I don't know. I thought the TU-160 was designed for this purpose, given it isn't stealth? Plenty of range to those missiles, so no need to get close to the target. Otherwise, the SU-57 I think is struggling to find a mission. The SU-35 can do 90% of what the SU-57 can, and do it considerably cheaper...


I really don't see what is problematic with stealth fighter carrying stand off weapons. For F-35 you have couple of longer ranged weapons in development.

Btw Tu-160 was designed for one thing and that is nuclear war. And as it look like Tu-22 would have similar role with M3M upgrade, IMO Tu-22M3M would replace Tu-95 in strategic role. That is quite logical because even though they aren't stealth bombers they have lot smaller RCS then Tu-95 or B-52, and upgraded variants of 22s and 160s are geting PAK-FA coatings, paints and canopy glass.

So Russians will rely lot more for conventional missions on fighter bombers then on classic bombers in future.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 20 Jul 2019, 20:22
by XanderCrews
milosh wrote:I really don't see what is problematic with stealth fighter carrying stand off weapons. For F-35 you have couple of longer ranged weapons in development.

Btw Tu-160 was designed for one thing and that is nuclear war. And as it look like Tu-22 would have similar role with M3M upgrade, IMO Tu-22M3M would replace Tu-95 in strategic role. That is quite logical because even though they aren't stealth bombers they have lot smaller RCS then Tu-95 or B-52, and upgraded variants of 22s and 160s are geting PAK-FA coatings, paints and canopy glass.

So Russians will rely lot more for conventional missions on fighter bombers then on classic bombers in future.


terrible strategy if true

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 21 Jul 2019, 08:51
by knowan
milosh wrote:And as it look like Tu-22 would have similar role with M3M upgrade, IMO Tu-22M3M would replace Tu-95 in strategic role.


Unless Russia plans on violating yet another arms control treaty, that would be problematic within the context of the New START treaty and whatever treaty which will replace it.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 21 Jul 2019, 13:11
by milosh
knowan wrote:
milosh wrote:And as it look like Tu-22 would have similar role with M3M upgrade, IMO Tu-22M3M would replace Tu-95 in strategic role.


Unless Russia plans on violating yet another arms control treaty, that would be problematic within the context of the New START treaty and whatever treaty which will replace it.


Of course not. Nothing forbid Russia to replace old Tu95 with newer Tu22 what matters is number of bombers. If number of strategic bombers dont change it is irrelevant what type they are.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 21 Jul 2019, 13:21
by mixelflick
They'll have no problem violating it..

More at issue here is the fact that they're throwing everything against the wall, hoping something will stick.

Their 5th gen is "too good", so no mass production. Oh wait, we'll build 76 and sell it to whoever can afford it. No, that's not it. We'll keep building up rated Flankers. Wait, we really can't afford that too, can we? So we'll build the Mig-35. It's a step down from the SU-30/35 - but it'll beat the F-35. Hold on, the SU-57 really is sixth gen, so as our Flankers and Mig-35's are good enough, we can wait for the almighty SU-65 6th gen to get here.

Sounds to me like the Russians figured out all their super duper Flankers aren't as invincible as they thought. Since they more or less bet the farm on that, they're scrambling now to do something (anything) to catch up.

I don't know who's in charge of Russian procurement and strategy, but it's pretty clear they've been hitting the vodka, and hard...

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 21 Jul 2019, 15:25
by knowan
milosh wrote:Of course not. Nothing forbid Russia to replace old Tu95 with newer Tu22 what matters is number of bombers. If number of strategic bombers dont change it is irrelevant what type they are.


Russia would be substantially reducing their total number of bomber aircraft if they scrapped their Tu-95s, something I can't see happening.
And given Russia is modernizing their Tu-95s, it looks like they're going to be staying in service for some time yet.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 21 Jul 2019, 19:40
by milosh
knowan wrote:
milosh wrote:Of course not. Nothing forbid Russia to replace old Tu95 with newer Tu22 what matters is number of bombers. If number of strategic bombers dont change it is irrelevant what type they are.


Russia would be substantially reducing their total number of bomber aircraft if they scrapped their Tu-95s, something I can't see happening.
And given Russia is modernizing their Tu-95s, it looks like they're going to be staying in service for some time yet.


I really doubt they will modernize whole Tu-95 fleet, I expect they will retired oldest planes so they need something to replace them and Tu-22M3M is very good option.

@mixflick

Russia don't have CCCP military budget so they need to juggling with money. Another problem is they started many projects when oil was expensive and now they need to decide what to prioritized. They didn't want to buy PAK-FA if Sukhoi don't lower price, and as state company Sukhoi did that.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 22 Jul 2019, 14:55
by mixelflick
milosh wrote:
knowan wrote:
milosh wrote:Of course not. Nothing forbid Russia to replace old Tu95 with newer Tu22 what matters is number of bombers. If number of strategic bombers dont change it is irrelevant what type they are.


Russia would be substantially reducing their total number of bomber aircraft if they scrapped their Tu-95s, something I can't see happening.
And given Russia is modernizing their Tu-95s, it looks like they're going to be staying in service for some time yet.


I really doubt they will modernize whole Tu-95 fleet, I expect they will retired oldest planes so they need something to replace them and Tu-22M3M is very good option.

@mixflick

Russia don't have CCCP military budget so they need to juggling with money. Another problem is they started many projects when oil was expensive and now they need to decide what to prioritized. They didn't want to buy PAK-FA if Sukhoi don't lower price, and as state company Sukhoi did that.[/quote

So what's the plan then, build and deliver SU-57's for free/at a loss? Makes no sense, unless they plan to sell hundreds more to foreign operators. And let's be honest, it's going to take at least another 5 years (more like 10) for it to become a mature weapons system. Roll that out to foreign countries too early, and Sukhoi will be taking them back. I just don't get it man.

You say they started tons of new projects - on that much we agree. But they now need to decide what to prioritize? OK, that's logical. But they don't seem to be carrying any one project through. Do they build more SU-35's? And if not, what to build then, SU-30's or Mig-35's? Sounds like they're trying to do both. Add to that the Mig-41, Mig-31 upgrades, all of these hypersonic weapons in development, lasers etc.. It lacks credibility when they talk about all these projects as "real". Hell to real some pro-Kremlin news outlets, they're all in service, operational and have been for a decade.

Let's just focus on the SU-57 for a moment. Reading the newswires, it sounds like they'll flying off the production line right now. Where are the front line units flying it? Foreign deployments? Integrated into large scale war games/exercises? Flying with export customers? Logistical supply chain that spans all over the globe? Qualified to carry all air to air, air to ground and air to everything Russian super-missiles? Hell, the Russians can't even get an AESA in a production jet. 20 years after the first Western jet fielded one, the're talking about it being an "option" for the Mig-35.

Everything I just listed (everything!) and more is happening with the F-35 program. Is it perfect? No. But it's a REAL program delivering a REAL jet, flying in front line units. Deployed all over the world. Proven in large scale war games and flying with a half dozen other nations. Has been used in real combat, not the phony "2 day" deployment to Syria of a couple of prototypes. And soon, hundreds of F-35's will be thousands.

Russia is talking about building 76.

See what I mean?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 23 Jul 2019, 05:28
by fidgetspinner
"Hell, the Russians can't even get an AESA in a production jet. 20 years after the first Western jet fielded one, the're talking about it being an "option" for the Mig-35."


There are PESA radars that outperform AESA radars what is the intention of your goal post exactly? I would not give a sh*t if they started producing FICs earlier than us or fielded a ROFAR radar before us all I care about is the performance of what it can do. I do not even want to bother with the rest of this post.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 23 Jul 2019, 05:51
by knowan
fidgetspinner wrote:There are PESA radars that outperform AESA radars what is the intention of your goal post exactly?


I started to question if you were actually dumb enough to believe that, but then I realized already know the answer.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 23 Jul 2019, 12:51
by hythelday
Ah, yes, ROFAR.

wewuzkangz, you blew your cover :D

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 23 Jul 2019, 13:33
by knowan
hythelday wrote:Ah, yes, ROFAR.

wewuzkangz, you blew your cover :D


He blew his cover with his first post on his fresh account, by linking to one of his own quora posts. Not the sharpest tool in the shed.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 23 Jul 2019, 15:32
by fidgetspinner
viewtopic.php?t=3018

I can at least name one pesa radar that outmatches atleast one aesa radar. Also there has been a bunch of news lately about ROFAR(thought some people would get with the times here) which now the company proceeds to deal with the software.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 23 Jul 2019, 21:36
by tphuang
milosh wrote:
wrightwing wrote:I can't imagine China being interested, unless they're still having issues getting engines developed. Even then it's doubtful.


J-20 is design to be pure A-A 5gen fighter, narrow weapon bay to be precise maybe even narrower then F-22 weapon bay. So Su-57 would be nice for China as stealth fighter bomber:

https://external-preview.redd.it/cfAxJw ... 057a7180ab

that is one big missile, around 800kg heavy and it can carry four of them.


Not going to happen, the only fighter China would be interested from Russia at the moment is su35. Russia is incapable of running any project on schedule. You simply can't plan your national defense around a supplier like that.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2019, 02:50
by southerncross
mixelflick wrote:Their 5th gen is "too good", so no mass production. Oh wait, we'll build 76 and sell it to whoever can afford it. No, that's not it. We'll keep building up rated Flankers. Wait, we really can't afford that too, can we? So we'll build the Mig-35. It's a step down from the SU-30/35 - but it'll beat the F-35. Hold on, the SU-57 really is sixth gen, so as our Flankers and Mig-35's are good enough, we can wait for the almighty SU-65 6th gen to get here.

Sounds to me like the Russians figured out all their super duper Flankers aren't as invincible as they thought. Since they more or less bet the farm on that, they're scrambling now to do something (anything) to catch up.

I don't know who's in charge of Russian procurement and strategy, but it's pretty clear they've been hitting the vodka, and hard...


Russian procurement is based on small contracts. First Su-35 contract was 48 planes, equivalent for Su-57 is 76 units, from that point of view there is nothing too striking, apart from this contract being relatively big for Russia.

Some months after Borisov pointed out how the Su-35S was still adequate for their air force, price of Su-57 drops by 20% and a big contract is signed. All indicates that was a deliberate PR action to signal the industry that they were not in a hurry to buy. It seems it worked.

As to them not being able to buy Su-35, I guess this was not serious was it?

MiG-35 is, probably like the new F-15s in USAF, an industrial base issue and also linked to the export market. MiG has big losses and they want to recover them taking advantage of the big number of countries that operate the MiG-29. VKS has not an excess of planes, so they can be operated there too and eventually substitute the MiG-29 there.

There have been plans to create and deploy a 5th generation fighter in Russia since at least the eighties, so they are hardly "scrambling". PAK-FA is ongoing since the beginning of this century and it has always been referred to as the substitute of Flankers. If all the Su-35 would be a fallback plan intended to protect the air force in case of major crash of the PAK-FA program, that was a smart move.

Hope it helps trying to make sense of their procurement :wink:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2019, 03:06
by southerncross
mixelflick wrote:Let's just focus on the SU-57 for a moment. Reading the newswires, it sounds like they'll flying off the production line right now. Where are the front line units flying it? Foreign deployments? Integrated into large scale war games/exercises? Flying with export customers? Logistical supply chain that spans all over the globe? Qualified to carry all air to air, air to ground and air to everything Russian super-missiles? Hell, the Russians can't even get an AESA in a production jet. 20 years after the first Western jet fielded one, the're talking about it being an "option" for the Mig-35.


They are producing two units which were contracted last year and can be considered as a pre-series, pilot batch or whatever you may call it, it is an usual industrial practice to set up and test production line. The first unit will go to the air force until the end of this year, the second will be delivered in 2020.

Where will they go? Probably to the training center of the air force to prepare manuals and other training and operational documents. They will take their time, given they are still waiting for the definitive engine.

Everything I just listed (everything!) and more is happening with the F-35 program. Is it perfect? No. But it's a REAL program delivering a REAL jet, flying in front line units. Deployed all over the world. Proven in large scale war games and flying with a half dozen other nations. Has been used in real combat, not the phony "2 day" deployment to Syria of a couple of prototypes. And soon, hundreds of F-35's will be thousands.


Su-57 is pretty much "real" too, but it can't compete in numbers with the F-35. It is not a multinational project or a "numbers" plane. It will be sold to other countries, only not too soon probably. F-22 was "real" too but produced in very small amounts. Su-57 fits rather that profile as a heavy fighter.

Russia is talking about building 76.


That is only the first contract, they didn't disclose how many will be produced in total.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2019, 10:04
by Corsair1963
southerncross wrote:
That is only the first contract, they didn't disclose how many will be produced in total.



Sorry, the "spin" is no longer cutting it. As the Su-57 is frankly a failure anyway you slice it. As Russia can't find a "single" customer for the type. Even after almost weekly attempts to sell it to India. Their BIGGEST CUSTOMER! This is supported by the fact they themselves have committed to just 76 aircraft over the next "NINE" years.

Which, speaks volumes..... :shock:

I suggest some forget the propaganda from RT, TASS, and Sputnik and move into the real world. (just saying)


Respectfully 8)

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2019, 10:33
by mixelflick
I've followed this program since the prototypes first flight back in what, 2010?

The whole thing is spin. Ever since day 1 it was the Raptorski super-plane that was going to be in service no later than 2013. Probably sooner. Exept um, nope. 2015 now. Nope. 2016 and so forth until now we're being told 76 will be in service by 2028.

This new forecasting is much better, because it gives them slack to hide behind any further delays for another 9 years. The only reason India MIGHT buy it is... there's no other alternative. They're not getting the F-35 or J/C-31 so the SU-57 is it. And that's at least a good 10 years away.

In 10 years time I predict India will be much closer to the West. Perhaps by then the F-35 will be offered to them, and it'll probably be flying with an even more powerful engine.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2019, 10:44
by Corsair1963
mixelflick wrote:I've followed this program since the prototypes first flight back in what, 2010?

The whole thing is spin. Ever since day 1 it was the Raptorski super-plane that was going to be in service no later than 2013. Probably sooner. Exept um, nope. 2015 now. Nope. 2016 and so forth until now we're being told 76 will be in service by 2028.

This new forecasting is much better, because it gives them slack to hide behind any further delays for another 9 years. The only reason India MIGHT buy it is... there's no other alternative. They're not getting the F-35 or J/C-31 so the SU-57 is it. And that's at least a good 10 years away.

In 10 years time I predict India will be much closer to the West. Perhaps by then the F-35 will be offered to them, and it'll probably be flying with an even more powerful engine.


Your likely not far off from the truth..... :D

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2019, 11:09
by southerncross
Corsair1963 wrote:Sorry, the "spin" is no longer cutting it. As the Su-57 is frankly a failure...
I suggest some forget the propaganda from RT, TASS, and Sputnik and move into the real world. (just saying)


I was just trying to separate a bit the actual information about the program from all the hearsay, then everybody can decide by themselves if the plane is a failure or not etc. But there is remarkably little information available about it and a lot of space for speculation, that is true.

mixelflick wrote:The whole thing is spin. Ever since day 1 it was the Raptorski super-plane that was going to be in service no later than 2013. Probably sooner. Exept um, nope. 2015 now. Nope. 2016 and so forth until now we're being told 76 will be in service by 2028.


It enters service this year, finally. Are 76 units enough in almost ten years? Surely they are not impressive numbers but there was never talk about more than 200-250 units.

This new forecasting is much better, because it gives them slack to hide behind any further delays for another 9 years. The only reason India MIGHT buy it is... there's no other alternative. They're not getting the F-35 or J/C-31 so the SU-57 is it. And that's at least a good 10 years away.


Su-57 is for Russian air force. If anybody else buys it is a plus, they will receive a monkey model or a co-development with their own subsystems. Customer and author of the plane's set of requirements is the VKS.

India does not seem to be in a hurry in any case, they are still deciding whether they buy fighters of 4.5 gen and they don't know still under which requirements...

In 10 years time I predict India will be much closer to the West. Perhaps by then the F-35 will be offered to them, and it'll probably be flying with an even more powerful engine.


This is a bit of speculation but we will see. Last news have it that they will establish a mechanism with Russia to pay weapons in domestic currencies so you can say they definitely play both sides.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2019, 17:02
by milosh
mixelflick wrote:I've followed this program since the prototypes first flight back in what, 2010?

The whole thing is spin. Ever since day 1 it was the Raptorski super-plane that was going to be in service no later than 2013. Probably sooner. Exept um, nope. 2015 now. Nope. 2016 and so forth until now we're being told 76 will be in service by 2028.

This new forecasting is much better, because it gives them slack to hide behind any further delays for another 9 years. The only reason India MIGHT buy it is... there's no other alternative. They're not getting the F-35 or J/C-31 so the SU-57 is it. And that's at least a good 10 years away.

In 10 years time I predict India will be much closer to the West. Perhaps by then the F-35 will be offered to them, and it'll probably be flying with an even more powerful engine.


Well it look like you is late in PAK-FA program :D

Work on PAK-FA started in 2003 when Sukhoi won contract. In 2008 I (and others) saw how it would look like on Saturn site where was CGI model which was removed later.

I don't remember anyone said it would be ready in 2013?!? 2015 or 2016 was earliest and of course for first stage version, now it is 2019 so it isn't that behind.

Whole BSing with Su-57 was trying to get price as low as possible, they did it with Yasen sub earlier. While Sukhoi is state owned, state can't as in Stalin era to say it will cost that much, build it or gulag.

BSing as statement it is almost as 6gen so we don't need it so no serial production :roll:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 25 Jul 2019, 12:44
by mixelflick
Well, granted this is APA but... here's what they said in their write up on PAK FA:

"PAK-FA Low Rate Initial Production is planned for 2013, and Full Rate Production for 2015, with initial deliveries of the Indian dual seat variant planned for 2017"

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 27 Jul 2019, 19:25
by milosh
mixelflick wrote:Well, granted this is APA but... here's what they said in their write up on PAK FA:

"PAK-FA Low Rate Initial Production is planned for 2013, and Full Rate Production for 2015, with initial deliveries of the Indian dual seat variant planned for 2017"


APA modified official statements to present PAK-FA as something behind corner. What was said "first ten evaluation planes will be bought after 2012, and 60 serials after 2016" not so precise at all as APA reported. Also first ten can easily be prototypes while APA presented them as LRIP planes.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 28 Jul 2019, 15:22
by mixelflick
Look man, it's a nice looking bird. Beautiful lines, great airframe like the Flankers before it.

But it's being slow rolled for a reason; it's not ready. Several things still need to come together for it to be as good as the brochure looks. Engines, I suspect integrating the avionics and weapons. I dont' think they're doing themselves any favors by attempting it be air to everything either. That means millions and millions more lines of code, weapons integration and flight software modifications.

If they had just focused on it being an air to air silver bullet, they might have fielded say 100 by now. But all this mission creep is hell on the engineers, is likely adding more and more weight and you can only "test" so much of it on SU-35's.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Jul 2019, 03:12
by Corsair1963
Sounds like the biggest problem facing the Su-57. Is the aircraft relatively poor RCS. If, true it hardly matters. If, the issues with the Engines and/or Avionics are resolved or not.

This of course explain why the Indian Air Force totally lost interest in the program.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Jul 2019, 11:56
by southerncross
mixelflick wrote:But it's being slow rolled for a reason; it's not ready.


True, the definitive engine is not ready for serial production yet. But the moment they sign a big production contract they need certainties. So in all probability it has tested enough to know the technical solutions work. As for the plane itself, state tests were already finished last year if I remember well.

Russia is not producing any plane beyond 10-20 aircraft per year, not even when they air force was in tatters. Now it has been modernized to a great extent they are not in a hurry and will not go faster. There is simply no evidence that Russia is proceeding differently with Su-57 as to what they have done with other new planes.

If they had just focused on it being an air to air silver bullet, they might have fielded say 100 by now. But all this mission creep is hell on the engineers, is likely adding more and more weight and you can only "test" so much of it on SU-35's.


The plane is multirole from its inception, therefore there is no mission creep ongoing that we know of and no need to add more weight beyond the structural reinforcements done after 2015 and which are BTW a result of the designers doing their weight minimization job right.

Precisely for the air to air role the new engines are necessary, they are reported to allow for effective supercruise

Corsair1963 wrote:Sounds like the biggest problem facing the Su-57. Is the aircraft relatively poor RCS.


Only there is no evidence about its RCS. The events indicate it flew to Syria without anybody noticing so its RCS is certainly not that big.

If, true it hardly matters. If, the issues with the Engines and/or Avionics are resolved or not.


What issues? Developing an engine with higher specific performance than foreign equivalents is hardly an "issue" for Russia but for anybody else designing or fielding air superiority fighters.

This of course explain why the Indian Air Force totally lost interest in the program.


Only the head of the Indian air force was a few days ago in Russia testing planes and explaining that they needed to see the Su-57 going in service with Russia and then test it to make a decision on whether they buy it.

Sorry for having to point it out, but you guys keep making assertions that tell more about your beliefs than about the plane's facts.

This is a serious plane with a serious development program, as any other modern fighter it will keep being developed for many years, with new features and weapons being included and upgrades flowing into the design, every bit as F-35 for instance. It would be sensible to reconcile with the possibility that, one to one, it will be competitive with the F-22 and F-35, it has been designed for that.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Jul 2019, 14:06
by mixelflick
Well, it seems to be a very inefficent way of introducing airframes into service. If this follows the evolution of the Flanker (and it sure looks like it), Russia's armed forces will have half a dozen versions of a small number, meaning it'll be a logistical nightmare.

How they propose to be able to deploy, fly, fight and win is beyond me. The RCS is a big deal BTW, as if its sub-par in an F-22/35 world, it's not going to last very long. New engines or not. By the time this thing comes to fruition F-22's will be flying with the new long range air to air weapon under development, have a helmet mounted sight for the 9x block II and the F-35 will likely have a much more powerful engine, updated threat software and the new long range air to air weapon too.

Long story short: The SU-57 is always going to be playing catch up, and will be out-numbered at keast 10-1 vs. the number of F-22's and F-35's flying..

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Jul 2019, 16:42
by knowan
southerncross wrote:The events indicate it flew to Syria without anybody noticing so its RCS is certainly not that big.


That is a heavily biased assumption; you're assuming that no other country knew of the Su-57s in Syria until they were spotted on the ground with satellites.

The problem with that assumption? It assumes other countries would have said anything if they knew before it became publicly known.
It also assumes the Su-57s were not detected by radar while en-route to Syria, but were misidentified as other Russian aircraft types.


southerncross wrote:Sorry for having to point it out, but you guys keep making assertions that tell more about your beliefs than about the plane's facts.


You appear to be guilty of the exact thing you are accusing others of, as you are crafting assumptions that support your beliefs without considering alternatives that run counter to your beliefs.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Jul 2019, 18:19
by madrat
mixelflick wrote:Long story short: The SU-57 is always going to be playing catch up, and will be out-numbered at keast 10-1 vs. the number of J-20s flying, ignoring the J-31s...


See my correction above. It will be outnumbered 100:1 or more compared to F-22A and F-35's.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Jul 2019, 20:21
by wrightwing
southerncross wrote:[



This is a serious plane with a serious development program, as any other modern fighter it will keep being developed for many years, with new features and weapons being included and upgrades flowing into the design, every bit as F-35 for instance. It would be sensible to reconcile with the possibility that, one to one, it will be competitive with the F-22 and F-35, it has been designed for that.

The F-22 and F-35 had production representative engines, avionics/sensors, software, signature reduction/management, etc.... unlike the Su-57.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Jul 2019, 20:39
by sprstdlyscottsmn
wrightwing wrote:The F-22 and F-35 had production representative engines, avionics/sensors, software, signature reduction/management, etc.... unlike the Su-57.

With lifetime upgrade paths already lined out. Lessons learned from the F-16 IMO.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 29 Jul 2019, 23:47
by wrightwing
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
wrightwing wrote:The F-22 and F-35 had production representative engines, avionics/sensors, software, signature reduction/management, etc.... unlike the Su-57.

With lifetime upgrade paths already lined out. Lessons learned from the F-16 IMO.

Yep. There's no telling when a fully production representative Su-57 will be seen, with engines, sensor fusion software, AESA radar, OLS-50, additional refinements in shaping/RAM.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 30 Jul 2019, 02:57
by Corsair1963
southerncross wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Sorry, the "spin" is no longer cutting it. As the Su-57 is frankly a failure...
I suggest some forget the propaganda from RT, TASS, and Sputnik and move into the real world. (just saying)


I was just trying to separate a bit the actual information about the program from all the hearsay, then everybody can decide by themselves if the plane is a failure or not etc. But there is remarkably little information available about it and a lot of space for speculation, that is true.

mixelflick wrote:The whole thing is spin. Ever since day 1 it was the Raptorski super-plane that was going to be in service no later than 2013. Probably sooner. Exept um, nope. 2015 now. Nope. 2016 and so forth until now we're being told 76 will be in service by 2028.


It enters service this year, finally. Are 76 units enough in almost ten years? Surely they are not impressive numbers but there was never talk about more than 200-250 units.

This new forecasting is much better, because it gives them slack to hide behind any further delays for another 9 years. The only reason India MIGHT buy it is... there's no other alternative. They're not getting the F-35 or J/C-31 so the SU-57 is it. And that's at least a good 10 years away.


Su-57 is for Russian air force. If anybody else buys it is a plus, they will receive a monkey model or a co-development with their own subsystems. Customer and author of the plane's set of requirements is the VKS.

India does not seem to be in a hurry in any case, they are still deciding whether they buy fighters of 4.5 gen and they don't know still under which requirements...

In 10 years time I predict India will be much closer to the West. Perhaps by then the F-35 will be offered to them, and it'll probably be flying with an even more powerful engine.


This is a bit of speculation but we will see. Last news have it that they will establish a mechanism with Russia to pay weapons in domestic currencies so you can say they definitely play both sides.



:lmao:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 30 Jul 2019, 13:02
by mixelflick
Properly positioned, this about face insofar as "mass production" might be useful. If I was the USAF, I'd be in Congress's ear about how Russia is "accelerating their 6th gen fighter acquisition plans..". In fact, they are rolling off production lines as we speak. Which means..

1.) We need to ditch the F-15EX in favor of more F-35's; and..
2.) Accelerate our own 6th gen fighter acquisition plans

There is lots of speculation as to why Russia is doing this. One school of thought is that they recieved intelligence briefings that the US 6th gen program was farther along than first thought. I rather doubt that though, as even if it is true there's this matter of paying for it. More likely, they're trying to get a jump on the Chinese in the export market. With the J-20 staying in China and the F/C-31 still mired in developmental issues, the SU-57 could be pitched as "6th gen, ready today for your air force".

Of course that isn't true, but pleny of nations would likely fall for it. Hell, even Gripen has a few export orders LOL..

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 31 Jul 2019, 01:09
by Corsair1963
mixelflick wrote:Properly positioned, this about face insofar as "mass production" might be useful. If I was the USAF, I'd be in Congress's ear about how Russia is "accelerating their 6th gen fighter acquisition plans..". In fact, they are rolling off production lines as we speak. Which means..

1.) We need to ditch the F-15EX in favor of more F-35's; and..
2.) Accelerate our own 6th gen fighter acquisition plans

There is lots of speculation as to why Russia is doing this. One school of thought is that they recieved intelligence briefings that the US 6th gen program was farther along than first thought. I rather doubt that though, as even if it is true there's this matter of paying for it. More likely, they're trying to get a jump on the Chinese in the export market. With the J-20 staying in China and the F/C-31 still mired in developmental issues, the SU-57 could be pitched as "6th gen, ready today for your air force".

Of course that isn't true, but pleny of nations would likely fall for it. Hell, even Gripen has a few export orders LOL..


I don't see the US Military playing up the Su-57. As there is little respect for it among most Defense Experts. So, expect them to push the J-20 and/or J-31 as the real "elephant in the room". In order to keep the Military Industrial Complex fueled...

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 31 Jul 2019, 06:54
by milosh
mixelflick wrote:Well, it seems to be a very inefficent way of introducing airframes into service. If this follows the evolution of the Flanker (and it sure looks like it), Russia's armed forces will have half a dozen versions of a small number, meaning it'll be a logistical nightmare.


Dozen versions? What dozen version of Flanker exist?

Su-27, Su-30 and Su-35 that is what they have. Su-34 is based on Flanker but is noticable different. All use same engines, weapons and many share same electronics.

In case of Su-57 things are even more simpler. Only difference be in engine when new engine is ready. Su-57 v0.5 will get same engine when time for engine replacement came.

Su-57 will be used as upgrade to Flanker fleet domestic and worldwide which will cut cost. Imagine if F135 could be install in F-15, F-16 or F-22.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 31 Jul 2019, 07:13
by Corsair1963
milosh wrote:
Dozen versions? What dozen version of Flanker exist?

Su-27, Su-30 and Su-35 that is what they have. Su-34 is based on Flanker but is noticable different. All use same engines, weapons and many share same electronics.

In case of Su-57 things are even more simpler. Only difference be in engine when new engine is ready. Su-57 v0.5 will get same engine when time for engine replacement came.

Su-57 will be used as upgrade to Flanker fleet domestic and worldwide which will cut cost. Imagine if F135 could be install in F-15, F-16 or F-22.



Realistically, when can we expect to see a mature production ready izdeliye 30??? :?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 31 Jul 2019, 07:52
by milosh
Corsair1963 wrote:Realistically, when can we expect to see a mature production ready izdeliye 30??? :?


Eariler then WS-13 or what engine Chinese are planing for J-31, right now J-31 is flying with RD-93 which is same as 1980s RD-33:
Image

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 31 Jul 2019, 08:20
by Corsair1963
milosh wrote:
Eariler then WS-13 or what engine Chinese are planing for J-31, right now J-31 is flying with RD-93 which is same as 1980s RD-33:



Funny, that Russian Engines are good enough in Russian Aircraft. Yet, somehow are lacking when equipped in Chinese Aircraft. (funny on how that works) :lmao:



That said, while China is hardly a match for Western Engine Manufactures at this stage. They're making good progress nonetheless....The WS-10 is finally settling down and is becoming a mainstay of the PLAAF.

As for future designs like the WS-13 and WS-15 little is actually known? So, I guess we will have to wait and see...


Yet, I think it's safe to say that China will likely surpass Russia in the engine department in the next 10-20 years. Something the Russians are just going to have to learn to except....

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 31 Jul 2019, 10:25
by milosh
Corsair1963 wrote:Funny, that Russian Engines are good enough in Russian Aircraft. Yet, somehow are lacking when equipped in Chinese Aircraft. (funny on how that works) :lmao:


You really need to inform more.

Russians in MiG-29K and MiG-35 don't use that coal burning engine. They are using RD-33MK, more thurst and service life then RD-93 Chinese are buying from Russians for JF-17 and J-31 as we can see based on how much smoke it generate.

Btw Chinese are talking about WS-13 when JF-17 was presented, they are always couple years from production.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 31 Jul 2019, 13:17
by mixelflick
milosh wrote:
mixelflick wrote:Well, it seems to be a very inefficent way of introducing airframes into service. If this follows the evolution of the Flanker (and it sure looks like it), Russia's armed forces will have half a dozen versions of a small number, meaning it'll be a logistical nightmare.


Dozen versions? What dozen version of Flanker exist?

Su-27, Su-30 and Su-35 that is what they have. Su-34 is based on Flanker but is noticable different. All use same engines, weapons and many share same electronics.

In case of Su-57 things are even more simpler. Only difference be in engine when new engine is ready. Su-57 v0.5 will get same engine when time for engine replacement came.

Su-57 will be used as upgrade to Flanker fleet domestic and worldwide which will cut cost. Imagine if F135 could be install in F-15, F-16 or F-22.


Let's see...

You have the stock SU-27SM, the SU-27SM2, the SU-27SM3, SU-30SM, SU-30SM2, the SU-33, SU-34 (undeniably a Flanker) and SU-35. So not a dozen true, but nonetheless - 8. That' doesn't include the earlier SU-27's prior to the SM/SM2/SM3's coming online, which does bring it close to a dozen.

It's true the SU-57 is more straightforward, but likely only because its so early in its evolution. They'll have the current SU-57 with 1st gen engines, the follow on with so called "stage 2" engines and there's been talk that the tricked out "6th gen" version will be named SU-60. You could also make a very good case the SU-57 is an evolution of the Flanker design too, given they carried through the widely spaced engine nacelles, "tunnel" and other features. In fact, when viewed from the top, it looks like someone stepped on a Flanker..

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 31 Jul 2019, 13:24
by mixelflick
milosh wrote:
mixelflick wrote:Well, it seems to be a very inefficent way of introducing airframes into service. If this follows the evolution of the Flanker (and it sure looks like it), Russia's armed forces will have half a dozen versions of a small number, meaning it'll be a logistical nightmare.


Dozen versions? What dozen version of Flanker exist?

Su-27, Su-30 and Su-35 that is what they have. Su-34 is based on Flanker but is noticable different. All use same engines, weapons and many share same electronics.

In case of Su-57 things are even more simpler. Only difference be in engine when new engine is ready. Su-57 v0.5 will get same engine when time for engine replacement came.

Su-57 will be used as upgrade to Flanker fleet domestic and worldwide which will cut cost. Imagine if F135 could be install in F-15, F-16 or F-22.


Let's see...

You have the SU-27SM, the SU-27SM2, the SU-27SM3, SU-30SM, SU-30SM2, the SU-33, SU-34 (undeniably a Flanker) and SU-35. So not a dozen true, but nonetheless - 8. That' doesn't include the earlier SU-27's prior to the SM/SM2/SM3's coming online, which does bring it close to a dozen.

It's true the SU-57 is more straightforward, but likely only because its so early in its evolution. They'll have the current SU-57 with 1st gen engines, the follow on with so called "stage 2" engines and there's been talk that the tricked out "6th gen" version will be named SU-60. You could also make a very good case the SU-57 is an evolution of the Flanker design too, given they carried through the widely spaced engine nacelles, "tunnel" and other features. In fact, when viewed from the top, it looks like someone stepped on a Flanker..

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 31 Jul 2019, 14:06
by milosh
mixelflick wrote:Let's see...

You have the SU-27SM, the SU-27SM2, the SU-27SM3, SU-30SM, SU-30SM2, the SU-33, SU-34 (undeniably a Flanker) and SU-35. So not a dozen true, but nonetheless - 8. That' doesn't include the earlier SU-27's prior to the SM/SM2/SM3's coming online, which does bring it close to a dozen.


You can't count Su-27SM variants as different planes, in fact SM2 didn't happen because of Su-35. SM and SM3 are upgrades. Of course they are going to use Su-27 and upgrade when Su-27 is young and plane is quite capable and excellent for upgrades.

So if we stick with fighters in production right now you have only Su-30 and Su-35. Su-34 I don't nor Russians count as fighter. It is bomber which role is replace Su-24 and for some missions Tu-22.

Su-30 for russian AF will look more and more as two seater Su-35:
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... 0-flankers

So it will be more like one fighter in two versions.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 31 Jul 2019, 17:19
by sferrin
mixelflick wrote:Let's see...

You have the SU-27SM, the SU-27SM2, the SU-27SM3, SU-30SM, SU-30SM2, the SU-33, SU-34 (undeniably a Flanker) and SU-35. So not a dozen true, but nonetheless - 8. That' doesn't include the earlier SU-27's prior to the SM/SM2/SM3's coming online, which does bring it close to a dozen.


You forgot the original Su-35, SU-35UB and the Su-37.

"The first variant was designed during the 1980s as an improvement on the Su-27 and was known as the Su-27M. This derivative incorporated canards and a multi-function radar that transformed the aircraft into a multi-role aircraft, which was structurally reinforced to cope with its greater weight. The first prototype made its maiden flight in June 1988. The first prototype made its maiden flight in June 1988. As the aircraft was not mass-produced due to the Dissolution of the Soviet Union, Sukhoi re-designated the aircraft as Su-35 to attract export orders. The fourteen aircraft produced were used for tests and demonstrations; one example had thrust-vectoring engines and the resultant Su-37 was used as a technology demonstrator. A sole Su-35UB two-seat trainer was also built in the late 1990s that resembled the Su-30MK family."

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 01 Aug 2019, 06:56
by weasel1962
Export variants? Add a K and variant numbers multiply.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 01 Aug 2019, 12:47
by sferrin
weasel1962 wrote:Export variants? Add a K and variant numbers multiply.


Su-30MKI & MKK for starters.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 01 Aug 2019, 13:06
by southerncross
The amount of posts in this thread that proudly ignore facts and indulge in bashing the rival plane is alarming. This barely hidden caricaturing of the program can hardly produce any useful information, as it is indeed produced in many brilliant threads here. As a newbie I cannot post much, so summing it up:

- Izd. 30 is expected to be ready by 2023, this has been said several times. Of course, testing is done because uncertainties exist, so delays are possible. But none has been reported by now after 1.5 years of flight testing and the plans to re-engine early production planes are firm, so the technical solutions work.
- All systems on the plane, that we know, have been through state tests already. That is why it enters serial production / operation and a first batch has been contracted.
- Russia always produces planes the way they plan to do it with the Su-57. It is, BTW, very efficient in allowing to sustain a production line with minimal fluctuations through an extended period, reducing costs and maximizing quality. Same thing goes for crew training.
- No versions of the plane for VKS have been mentioned. Only retrofit that we know of is the 2nd stage engine when it is ready, on all airframes. Since it is 1:1 exchangeable with AL-41F1, chances are it can be used on other planes like Su-35 afterwards, so almost no costs will be incurred. Please check availability and concurrency costs associated to F-35's own early LRIPs before attacking other procurement practices.
- There is no way US can deploy thousands of F-35 and F-22 to Russia (without triggering a nuclear war in the process), and no chance that Russia will try to match such numbers for some global struggle for supremacy. Therefore such arguments about numbers are pretty much useless. Obviously Russia has no intention to outspend the country enjoying the exorbitant privilege of the dollar, no matter how much you taunt them.
- RCS of the plane continues to be unknown and impossible to eye-ball.
- USAF and USN are the ones apparently scrambling to develop 6G planes (as well as hypersonics and withdrawing from arms control treaties), demanding greatly increased budgets, shortened developmental cycles and imposing bans to disclose any detail about what they are up to. Illogical if current systems enjoy the overwhelming superiority that is claimed here. Deeds matter, not words.
- About the deployment to Syria: it is a no brainer that disclosing it in advance by the West would have instantly killed the plane's reputation in terms of LO with no backlash for US and damaged their export prospects much more efficiently than CAATSA. Hence why it is safe to assume nobody was aware.
- For those not understanding why Russia buys their own plane, which has just finished state tests and for which the need has been established already in the 80ies, well it is pretty obvious they want it isn't it?

In a nutshell: if you want to understand what the Russians are up to with this plane, the best is to stop presuming they are acting illogically. It really is that easy.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 01 Aug 2019, 13:24
by mixelflick
sferrin wrote:
weasel1962 wrote:Export variants? Add a K and variant numbers multiply.


Su-30MKI & MKK for starters.


You're right, I forgot those (and others). So it IS quite close to a baker's dozen Flanker variants. Must be a logistical nightmare, no matter how capable these jets are.

With respect to the SU-57... I don't think it's a bad plane. But I do think Russia's track record of IOC predictions, "deployed to Syria" stunts and helter skelter "we're not mass producing it/we're going to mass produce it" is bizarre. Even at its worst, the F-35 was slated for mass production in both the US and for NATO partner nations. There was never a question - thousands would be built and proliferate around the globe. That's actually happening now, vs. just talking about it. There will soon be enough of them to revolutionize air warfare and restore America's qualitative advantage in the air.

The same can't be said of the SU-57. Even assuming (current) plans come to fruition, 76 birds aren't going to cut it. You may argue they'll be follow on orders, but look at what happened to the F-22. Sukhoi isn't going to keep producing aircraft without making a profit. 34 or some odd million per airframe? C'mon... For a jet with all the capabilites they're talking about... to produce them for 30 something million would be an engineering accomplishment worthy of the moon landing.

Do I think it'll reach operational units? Yes. Do I think it'll be exported? Possibly. But more and more it looks like a vanity project, more an apple of Putin's eye vs. an operationally useful airframe. Time will tell, but every day that ticks by is another adding to its dated design. Frankly, I'll be surprised if all the bugs get worked out before the American 6th gen gets here...

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 01 Aug 2019, 13:51
by botsing
southerncross wrote:- There is no way US can deploy thousands of F-35 and F-22 to Russia (without triggering a nuclear war in the process), and no chance that Russia will try to match such numbers for some global struggle for supremacy. Therefore such arguments about numbers are pretty much useless. Obviously Russia has no intention to outspend the country enjoying the exorbitant privilege of the dollar, no matter how much you taunt them.

Why would the US deploy "thousands of F-35 and F-22" to Russia? Russian and NATO planes have other opportunities to meet each other outside Russia.

And exorbitant privilege of the dollar? Taunting?

southerncross wrote:- RCS of the plane continues to be unknown and impossible to eye-ball.

But we can sure make educated guesses by looking at the current state of each plane.

southerncross wrote:- USAF and USN are the ones apparently scrambling to develop 6G planes (as well as hypersonics and withdrawing from arms control treaties), demanding greatly increased budgets, shortened developmental cycles and imposing bans to disclose any detail about what they are up to. Illogical if current systems enjoy the overwhelming superiority that is claimed here. Deeds matter, not words.

Having superiority now doesn't mean you will have that forever, once your opponent starts to yield equiv-tech you better have the next generation ready.

And if deeds matter and not words then Russia can effectively stop their programs and the entire propaganda machines that goes with them. :roll:

southerncross wrote:- About the deployment to Syria: it is a no brainer that disclosing it in advance by the West would have instantly killed the plane's reputation in terms of LO with no backlash for US and damaged their export prospects much more efficiently than CAATSA. Hence why it is safe to assume nobody was aware.

Assumption is the mother of all f....... Why would we trust you and take your meager speculation above others?

southerncross wrote:In a nutshell: if you want to understand what the Russians are up to with this plane, the best is to stop presuming they are acting illogically. It really is that easy.

You have to reverse this. Of course they are acting logically, so with that in mind you can rationalize their motives.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 01 Aug 2019, 20:27
by southerncross
botsing wrote:Why would the US deploy "thousands of F-35 and F-22" to Russia? Russian and NATO planes have other opportunities to meet each other outside Russia.


Russia has no need to match USAF numbers unless the later deploys to their borders, since they essentially have no foreign military presence. All those fictional scenarios where Russia goes to war against US in some faraway land are just that, fictions completely detached from the realities of the lean force structure and defensive doctrine of Russian military.

And exorbitant privilege of the dollar? Taunting?

Yes, as global reserve currency it allows US military expenses above and beyond those of any other country. After claiming to have depleted soviet economy in an arms race, obviously US would be happy if Russia entered a new one now... not going to happen.

But we can sure make educated guesses by looking at the current state of each plane.


You cannot estimate properties and dimensions of inner layers of RAM and RAS which are critical to RCS with your bare eyesight. Thus you can't make educated guesses beyond the simplest shaping analysis and this will leave you potentially orders of magnitude away from where the real RCS is.

Having superiority now doesn't mean you will have that forever, once your opponent starts to yield equiv-tech you better have the next generation ready.


That would be pretty much the first assumption I read here that Su-57 is equivalent to US 5th gen, comments are rather that it is underpowered, its RCS on the Superhornet level and with soviet-like avionics, hence a glorified Flanker but not a 5th gen fighter.

It is also revealing to read that no deterrence is sought after, but superiority. That has some serious implications, but the discussion doesn't belong here.

You have to reverse this. Of course they are acting logically, so with that in mind you can rationalize their motives.


These motives being that Putin has a fixation with this plane, or something real, like wanting to defend their country and develop their technology / industry / economy? Their motives for developing and procuring an advanced fighter are as obvious as those of any other country, no need for cartoonish motivations like those imagined by some.

BTW, yours is a great signature and sadly very true!

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 01 Aug 2019, 21:13
by milosh
What many Flanker variants?!?

Su-30 which is most exported Flanker exist in two variants. One with N001 radar and one with N011M radar. N011M variant have canards and TVC. N001 variant don't have. N001 variant is lot cheaper though.

MKK, MKA, MKI, MKM, MKV etc, are markings which represent buyer!

Same thing as MK2 or MK2V that is upgrade for MKK or MKV.

Sukhoi for its own reason have such complicated marking system but it is really simple if you look equipment or even simplier if you look plane photos (no canards mean cheaper one)

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 02 Aug 2019, 01:19
by wooster
Russian philosophy is clearly becoming one of not needing to match or be superior to the US, but rather to be just good enough to pose a credible threat to "contain" the US and avoid war until we implode from liberalism and illegal immigration whose political leanings are socialist. It will be interesting to see what the Russians have in store for a stealth bomber: truly stealthy or just again good enough to pose a credible threat. Don't want to get political in an aviation forum, but I believe its politics and budgets that shaping Russian air power and why they didn't try to do too much with the su57. And then remember that stealth is 2 fold, active and passive. Maybe they are putting more emphasis into the electrical engineering path of stealth.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 02 Aug 2019, 01:23
by weasel1962
mixelflick wrote:You're right, I forgot those (and others). So it IS quite close to a baker's dozen Flanker variants. Must be a logistical nightmare, no matter how capable these jets are.


It is a logistical nightmare, more so for some operators. The Malaysians who bought the Su-30MKM got it particularly bad because they further integrated non-Russian avionics which the Russians refused to maintain, and justifiably so.

milosh wrote:Su-30 which is most exported Flanker exist in two variants. One with N001 radar and one with N011M radar.


The N001 itself has a few variants. The Russians start from the original baseline. The Indonesian & Vietnamese use the N001VEP. Chinese use the N001VE for the 1st batches and VEP for their Su-30MK2s. N011M also has a variant. The Indians and Algerians use the Bars. Myanmar uses the upgraded Bars-R for its SU-30SMEs.

Not all bars are the same. :pint:

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 02 Aug 2019, 05:26
by milosh
weasel1962 wrote:
milosh wrote:Su-30 which is most exported Flanker exist in two variants. One with N001 radar and one with N011M radar.


The N001 itself has a few variants. The Russians start from the original baseline. The Indonesian & Vietnamese use the N001VEP. Chinese use the N001VE for the 1st batches and VEP for their Su-30MK2s. N011M also has a variant. The Indians and Algerians use the Bars. Myanmar uses the upgraded Bars-R for its SU-30SMEs.

Not all bars are the same. :pint:


Yes but lot of parts are still N001 in any N001 variant. Same for N011M.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 02 Aug 2019, 13:01
by knowan
southerncross wrote:The amount of posts in this thread that proudly ignore facts


Just keep attacking long established posters, that's just totally not troll behavior.



southerncross wrote:- Russia always produces planes the way they plan to do it with the Su-57. It is, BTW, very efficient in allowing to sustain a production line with minimal fluctuations through an extended period, reducing costs and maximizing quality. Same thing goes for crew training.


Image



southerncross wrote:...without triggering a nuclear war in the process...
...as well as hypersonics...


One thing I've noticed with pro-Russian trolls; they'll always fall back to Kremlin propaganda by mentioning "but nukes!!! and hypersonics!!!".



southerncross wrote:- RCS of the plane continues to be unknown and impossible to eye-ball.


It is entirely possible to eyeball the RCS as being significantly higher than the F-22 or F-35.



southerncross wrote:- About the deployment to Syria: it is a no brainer that disclosing it in advance by the West would have instantly killed the plane's reputation in terms of LO with no backlash for US and damaged their export prospects much more efficiently than CAATSA. Hence why it is safe to assume nobody was aware.


That is a ridiculous assumption that could only come from someone heavily biased towards Russian propaganda; the West would reveal capabilities of their own intelligence and sensor systems by doing that.

It also assumes the West believes the Su-57's export prospects to be worth damaging to begin with.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 02 Aug 2019, 13:33
by knowan
Oh, what a coincidence.

Image
Image

Joined less than 2 hours after last activity from known wewuzkangz alt account. And first post of the new account is in same thread as last post of previous account.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 02 Aug 2019, 13:34
by mixelflick
Good read about the first Russian SU-57's..

https://theaviationist.com/2019/08/01/s ... ealth-jet/

I will say this: Of all the non-American stealth/quasi stealth birds, I find the SU-57 the most interesting. The airframe itself I find very pleasing, like a snake from the side. Supposedly, the Russian Air Force refers to it as, "the needle". The Levcons are unique, giving many of the benefits of canards without some of the drawbacks. It will undoubtedly be fast, especially when that 2nd stage engine gets here. And like almost all Russian birds, it carries a lot of gas.

Where I think they're falling down is trying to make it air to everything, along with too many unnecessary radars. All of that adds weight, complexity and so much weapons separation/testing that it just adds to timeline IMO. Honing its air to air mission to perfection, along with a rudimentary air to ground mission set (like the Raptor) would go a long way toward streamiling things. It would also allow the pilots to focus on air to air OCA/DCA, instead of splitting hairs by trying to master air to everything.

As a silver bullet force, I'm sure it'll be an important ace up Russia's sleeve. It will likely chew through anyone's F-15's, 16's, Typhoons and Rafale's. Only the F-22 and 35 will have significant advantages over it. Fortunately for us, there will be MANY F-35's flying with many nations, by the time all 76 come on line circa 2028.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 02 Aug 2019, 13:49
by knowan
mixelflick wrote:Fortunately for us, there will be MANY F-35's flying with many nations, by the time all 76 come on line circa 2028.


Letsee, here's the current orders for nations in Europe:
138 with UK
90 with Italy
52 with Netherlands
34 with Belgium
27 with Denmark

And Northern Pacific nations:
147 with Japan
72 with South Korea

That's 341 in Europe and 219 in the North Pacific, already 560 non-US military F-35s. And those numbers will go up further with probable orders from nations like Poland, Finland, Greece, Romania and Spain.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 02 Aug 2019, 22:36
by southerncross
wooster wrote:Russian philosophy is clearly becoming one of not needing to match or be superior to the US, but rather to be just good enough to pose a credible threat to "contain" the US and avoid war until we implode from liberalism and illegal immigration whose political leanings are socialist. It will be interesting to see what the Russians have in store for a stealth bomber: truly stealthy or just again good enough to pose a credible threat. Don't want to get political in an aviation forum, but I believe its politics and budgets that shaping Russian air power and why they didn't try to do too much with the su57. And then remember that stealth is 2 fold, active and passive. Maybe they are putting more emphasis into the electrical engineering path of stealth.


That is pretty much it, deterrence is the key requirement and all the rest is just a plus. That being said, I personally believe the Su-57 to be well beyond that level vs. other 5th gen fighters, but I very much perceive that to be a minority opinion here, logical to a certain point and also respectable, so no point in insisting.

Budget and politics always shape everything, don't know what you mean exactly in this context. Russia as any other country does not have all the money they would fancy for their military and some prioritization and tolerance for suboptimal solutions are needed all the time.

It is also true that stealth has an active part, related to EW. A plane that can be seen but no tracked can't be engaged. I don't know to what extent this plays a role in the plane's LO design and its compromises, but Russian military indeed place a great focus in this area and the plane has a radioelectrical suite comprising radars, ESM and jammers and integrating them for self defence. May play a role to explain why Sukhoi indulged in some apparent capital sins of LO design as the cylindrical nacelles of the engines.

@knowan:

Differently to you, I am not criticising posters but posts. I am going to ignore the hostility and paranoia of yours directed at me, but should you persist in such disrespectful and inquisitorial attitude I must and will report. Let us better discuss like civil people, please.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 03 Aug 2019, 08:16
by milosh
mixelflick wrote:Where I think they're falling down is trying to make it air to everything, along with too many unnecessary radars. All of that adds weight, complexity and so much weapons separation/testing that it just adds to timeline IMO.


F-22 would have side arrays but it was canceled because of budget. So I don't think it is unnecessary at all. Wing L-band isn't something which you don't have in US fighters. F-35 have L-band AESA wing array, it is smaller then Su-35/57 but still it is there.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 03 Aug 2019, 10:29
by juretrn
milosh wrote:F-22 would have side arrays but it was canceled because of budget. So I don't think it is unnecessary at all. Wing L-band isn't something which you don't have in US fighters. F-35 have L-band AESA wing array, it is smaller then Su-35/57 but still it is there.

Careful there, I don't think anyone ever claimed those arrays are anything else but IFF transceivers. Not enough elements to be useful as radars; same goes for the Su-35/-57, IMO.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 03 Aug 2019, 13:33
by milosh
juretrn wrote:
milosh wrote:F-22 would have side arrays but it was canceled because of budget. So I don't think it is unnecessary at all. Wing L-band isn't something which you don't have in US fighters. F-35 have L-band AESA wing array, it is smaller then Su-35/57 but still it is there.

Careful there, I don't think anyone ever claimed those arrays are anything else but IFF transceivers. Not enough elements to be useful as radars; same goes for the Su-35/-57, IMO.


Not just IFF there are some capabilities which aren't for radar function. For now X-band arrays are for radar function. In future L-band new modules could have noticable better range then X-band modules though so they can be used as some kind of 2D early warning radar which can que other sensors on plane where to look/focus energy.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 03 Aug 2019, 13:53
by mixelflick
At what point do they have to stop adding stuff to it though?

Every time I turn around, the SU-57 is getting new A2A, A2G weapons, new radars, lasers, avionics and missions. I have a hard time believing all of this has been tested and the bugs worked out. If it was me, I'd be simplifying - not perpetually adding things.

In any case, how likely do you think production birds will be deployed to Syria? The first time was obviously a publicity stunt, but I'd think a more meaningful/longer deployment would be the fastest way to get all the bugs out?

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 03 Aug 2019, 15:05
by southerncross
mixelflick wrote:Good read about the first Russian SU-57's..

https://theaviationist.com/2019/08/01/s ... ealth-jet/


Thanks for the link. I would just warn against sources that make claims about technical characteristics which are strictly classified. Most of them come from people that are respected like Piotr Butowsky but have no way of knowing or disclosing certain info. Cruising speed with the 2nd. stage engine drew my attention in particular. Izd. 30 is meant as a supercruising engine, that means, an engine of high specific thrust like F119. AL-41F1 is not that far from F119 in wet settings but what it clearly lacks is dry thrust, hence why it cannot fulfil the requirements and will be substituted. It would not make much sense that the F-22 can cruise at close to Mach 1.8 while Su-57 stays at 1.3, it is not technically justified or reasonable as design goal IMHO, much less when an engine is going to be designed specifically for supercruising.

Re. the further development of the Su-57, Sukhoi has their roadmap for continuous improvement, not unlike F-35. We just don't know at what time what will go into the series and when retrofits will happen, but their MO is to work steadily to create what they call technical reserve. The plane is stated as going to be the backbone of VKS for 40 or 50 years so this effort will continue unabated for decades to come, as it happened with the Flankers. We recently got wind of the new MRAAM with claimed range of 200 km and new aero layout for improved maneuverability which had been on the works for years without anybody saying a peep about it, this is business as usual for Russian MIC. Very active in design but not so much in procurement unless needed, probably to save as much money as possible.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 03 Aug 2019, 16:10
by milosh
mixelflick wrote:At what point do they have to stop adding stuff to it though?

Every time I turn around, the SU-57 is getting new A2A, A2G weapons, new radars, lasers, avionics and missions. I have a hard time believing all of this has been tested and the bugs worked out. If it was me, I'd be simplifying - not perpetually adding things.


Adding stuff?!?

Look man, sensor package is same as it was in 2010 when bird was presented. In fact some sensors aren't still developed, like target pod, even though it was showed on MAKS years ago.

New weapons? We really don't know what Su-57 can carry right now, it could be what you say and that is A-A package. I wouldn't be surprise if it can carry R-37M, R-73 or R-74, R-77M, KH-38, KH-58 and KH-59MK2.

Of all of those only KH-59MK2 and R-74 are new. Everything else are already developed weapons.

southerncross wrote:
mixelflick wrote:Good read about the first Russian SU-57's..

https://theaviationist.com/2019/08/01/s ... ealth-jet/


Text is wrong in part about engine, 117 isn't uprated 117S in Su-35. 117 is different engine with new turbine with better cooling, as here is nicely explained:
https://youtu.be/JVJny6UL6V8?t=272

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 04 Aug 2019, 14:51
by mixelflick
southern cross

"It would not make much sense that the F-22 can cruise at close to Mach 1.8 while Su-57 stays at 1.3, it is not technically justified or reasonable as design goal IMHO, much less when an engine is going to be designed specifically for supercruising."

OK... what are you trying to say here exactly?

Do you mean it's unacceptable the SU-57 can only make mach 1.3 vs. the Raptor's 1.8? And if so, can it do 1.3 with the current engines? Or can it not super-cruise at all with the current engines?

Or, do you mean to say it isn't reasonable the SU-57 can only get to mach 1.3 with the new, 2nd stage engine? That engine should be able to propel it to at least Mach 1.8??

Confused...

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 04 Aug 2019, 16:14
by southerncross
mixelflick wrote:OK... what are you trying to say here exactly?


Sorry, I was not clear.

IMHO it is possible that the Su-57 can marginally supercruise with the current engines, but the whole point of the second stage ones is at least to get in the same ballpark as the F-22. This high performance in supersonic flight is crucial in every analysis of 5th gen fighters I have seen from Russian sources, stated in the patent and present in the obvious aero traits of the plane.

In terms of thrust, izd. 117 should be around 9 tf dry, which falls clearly short of the stated 11-11.5 tf of the the F119 (could be more IMO). This is due to inherent design characteristics (bypass ratio more than pure technological differences), so this thrust gap cannot be bridged unless Russia changes the relatively high bypass ratio of the AL-31F family in the izd. 30 design. The later is quoted as having highest specific thrust of any comparable engine, which supports this assumption and, given a similar size to F119 and if intakes are an indication of airflow consumption, it should have at least same dry thrust. Such levels are very close to the 12-12.5 tf wet thrust of engines like AL-31F or F110 that propel Flankers and F-15 above 2 M. So it is consistent that F-22 and Su-57 can cruise reasonably close to such speeds, even when I am admittedly no engine expert and may be differences at high speed and high altitude between operating in AB and military settings I am not aware of.

Hope the point is clearer now

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 04 Aug 2019, 19:38
by milosh
Is Russians anywhere mentioned what super cruise speed they are wanting? I understand fanboys would love it match F-22 but to me it is more less pointless. What is wrong with Mach 1.3-1.5 but being able to fly most of mission on that speed.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 04 Aug 2019, 23:55
by southerncross
milosh wrote:Is Russians anywhere mentioned what super cruise speed they are wanting? I understand fanboys would love it match F-22 but to me it is more less pointless. What is wrong with Mach 1.3-1.5 but being able to fly most of mission on that speed.


Not that I know, and the only half-serious reference I know about the plane's speed is a claimed limitation to 2 M, which finds itself in serious conflict with objective design features like the adjustable intakes that only make real sense for planes travelling faster than such speed. Having said that:

1. It is rather obvious that the F-22 set the bar and everyone coming afterwards needs to meet that speed, in order not to start an uphill battle when confronting it, at least from a kinematic point of view. Reason are the smallish chances to defeat the adversary when they get free shots at you from outside of your engagement range, due to longer range of their missiles and weak starting position of the own ones when pursuing such a fast, high flying maneuvering target. You can see in the thread about Spurs' fighter analysis what a disproportionate effect the launch conditions have on the performance of the AAMs. To put it in short, it would make little sense to make such a huge effort developing a tool to kinematically confront the F-22 and then give it a cruising speed that puts it at a marked disadvantage in the fight.

2. As said above, if the engine has broadly the same size and higher specific thrust, it will have very close to or higher thrust in dry settings. Since frontal area is almost the same and drag coefficient should not be apart by big amounts in fighters designed both for supercruising, speed should be similar. This is rather a technical consideration and has little to do with fanboyism IMO, but I stand to be corrected by the people in the know here. In other words, I would struggle to see how Su-57 could be so much slower than F-22 when the circumstances above are considered.

3. Two "leaky" turbojets as F119 and izd. 30 will have, as far as I see it, not too different fuel consumptions when cruising in supersonic flight, so the difference in range would come mostly from internal fuel reserves. We assume the Su-57 will carry more fuel than F-22, but we have no hard data on that regard, apart from claims in the patent that the long range supersonic flight is indeed one of the design goals. Anything else is speculation, as far as I see it.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 07 Aug 2019, 13:39
by mixelflick
It's a pretty safe bet that the SU-57 will carry more internal fuel IMO.

This is largely a consequence of Russia being an enormous country, but even moreso Russia's rather small and rudimentary tanker fleet. It's also due to the fact most Russian engines are a lot more thirsty than their American counterparts. This is also the reason China deploys many a Flanker variant, never once even considering the Mig-29. They have an even smaller tanker fleet than Russia, and the SCS demands long legs.

I'd guess somewhere around 24-25,000lbs of fuel internal for the SU-57. And we've also seen big external tanks, although I doubt outside of some Chinese examples we'll see that configuration often..

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 07 Aug 2019, 15:28
by sprstdlyscottsmn
mixelflick wrote:I'd guess somewhere around 24-25,000lbs of fuel internal for the SU-57.

I have a lot of doubts about that. When I look at the layout, compared to the F-22, I just don't see where they are going to put all that fuel. I could be wrong though, it doesn't look like the F-16 could possibly have 7k but it does.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 07 Aug 2019, 16:17
by milosh
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
mixelflick wrote:I'd guess somewhere around 24-25,000lbs of fuel internal for the SU-57.

I have a lot of doubts about that. When I look at the layout, compared to the F-22, I just don't see where they are going to put all that fuel. I could be wrong though, it doesn't look like the F-16 could possibly have 7k but it does.


You are probable right, it I remember good they mentioned 10tons of fuel, which is ~22k lbs if my math is right.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 08 Aug 2019, 03:20
by southerncross
mixelflick wrote:It's a pretty safe bet that the SU-57 will carry more internal fuel IMO.


I would personally agree with you, but we don't have hard data as far as I know, only hints.

This is largely a consequence of Russia being an enormous country, but even moreso Russia's rather small and rudimentary tanker fleet.


Relying on tankers is a source of complexity and vulnerability and will IMO never be such a high priority for Russia as it is for US. They focus mainly in fighting against peer rivals that they know could down their tankers.

It's also due to the fact most Russian engines are a lot more thirsty than their American counterparts.


Can you name an American fighter engine with lower TSFC than that of the AL-31F?

I'd guess somewhere around 24-25,000lbs of fuel internal for the SU-57. And we've also seen big external tanks, although I doubt outside of some Chinese examples we'll see that configuration often..


I would tend to agree on that figure, based on what the Su-35 can carry it would be only logical that VKS demands from their newer plane to have legs at least as long as those of their current fighters. The patent explains the integral aerodynamic design (blended wing-body) as a way to get maximum internal fuel with minimum downsides, and they really took this design principle to great lengths in the PAK-FA.

About the tanks, they are in general only used in Russian Flankers, already today, for ferry flights. This saves them the cost of dropping them.

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:I have a lot of doubts about that. When I look at the layout, compared to the F-22, I just don't see where they are going to put all that fuel. I could be wrong though, it doesn't look like the F-16 could possibly have 7k but it does.


You have the professional competences to make a better estimation, but comparing with the Flanker design I think they could manage to get to similar fuel capacities:

- The Su-57 is slightly smaller in linear dimensions, but overall has bigger horizontal surface and lots of usable volume, like in the lifting body of greatly extended dimensions, the wings with lower aspect ratio that allow bigger thickness without negative effects on the supersonic drag (per patent's claim) and a big, tall dorsal tank
- Sukhoi managed to get 11.3 t (24.900 lb) fuel from the Su-35S, improving substantially from the previous Flanker models. Su-57 has even more advanced systems and avionics that will leave more free space for fuel.
- Weapons bays do undoubtedly detract from fuel, but Flankers didn't have a body of comparable thickness either. It is apparently possible (not officially stated AFAIK) to use the main WB to carry fuel on special tanks.
- The F-22 has IMHO several features that detract substantially from its internal fuel capacity, even when they are justified design decisions: 1) Big side bays, needed to carry the old Sidewinder models 2) S-shaped air ducts that go along the whole fuselage 3) A very compact design unlike the BWB, podded-engine layout of the Su-57 4) Short fuselage with the engines placed relatively forward, well hidden by the tail.

milosh wrote:You are probable right, it I remember good they mentioned 10tons of fuel, which is ~22k lbs if my math is right.


Do you have a source? I have never seen any official statement in this regard.

In the end, the really interesting topic about Su-57 and izd. 30 regarding range and fuel consumption is whether the engine will be a two-stream variable bypass engine like its "predecessor" the izd. 20. This seems supported by the manufacturer's claims that it will keep the TSFC of the AL-31F, which seems incompatible with the low-bypass layout defining of supercruising engines. That would make it capable both of long loitering time / long subsonic range and at the same time high MIL thrust required for highly supersonic cruise, a combination of characteristics which is IMO the crux of the whole matter.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 08 Aug 2019, 14:03
by mixelflick
AL-31F Specific fuel consumption:
0.790 lb/lbf/h (22.37 g/kN/s) dry
1.819 lb/lbf/h (51.53 g/kN/s) with afterburner

F100-PW-229
(MIL) 17,800lbs @ 0.726 lb/Hr/lb st
(MAX) 29,100lbs @ 2.060 lb/Hr/lb st

F110-GE-129
(MIL) 17,000lbs @ 0.745 lb/Hr/lb st
(MAX) 29,000lbs @ 1.900 lb/Hr/lb st

F414-GE-400
(MIL) 14,700lbs @ 0.840 lb/HR/lb st
(MAX) 22,000lbs @ 1.850 lb/HR/lb st

F119-PW-100
(MIL) 25,000lbs @ (~0.800?) lb/HR/lb st (Speculation varies between 0.600 - 0.860...)
(MAX) 37,000lbs @ (~1.950?) lb/HR/lb st

F135-PW-100
(MIL) 28,000lbs @ 0.886 lb/HR/lb st
(According to J@ne'$, but seems too high? 0.700 is more likely)

(MAX) 43,000lbs @ (~1.950?) lb/HR/lb st

So, 2 known with a lower SFC (F-100-229 and F-110 129) and 2 possible (F-119 and F-135). I'm using the mil power figures given the vast, vast majority of time aircraft will be operating in this realm (vs. supersonic, usually measured in minutes). Frankly, I'd be shocked if the F-119 and F-135 weren't lower than the AL-31F, given they came much later and are more advanced...

But I understand your point, there's at least 1 Russian engine that has a comparable SFC metric. Where things go awry for most Russian engines is the mean time between overhaul. Look at all of the problems the Indians have had with the AL-31 series in their Flankers. But that's another story for another day. I will give you this: Russian engine tech has come a long way...

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 08 Aug 2019, 15:38
by sprstdlyscottsmn
The AL-31 series was a quantum leap in thrust and fuel economy in the same way the F100 was for the US. We are just at a time where another leap has occurred in thrust and TBO in the US and another leap in TSFC is on the horizon.

Re: SU-57: On hold for a decade

Unread postPosted: 08 Aug 2019, 17:55
by milosh
mixelflick wrote:But I understand your point, there's at least 1 Russian engine that has a comparable SFC metric. Where things go awry for most Russian engines is the mean time between overhaul. Look at all of the problems the Indians have had with the AL-31 series in their Flankers. But that's another story for another day. I will give you this: Russian engine tech has come a long way...


Indians aren't only users of AL-31, others don't have similar problems which say something about Indians. Btw Indians try to maintain engines not fallowing official procedures, for example they replace oil for example which lead to engine damages.

@southerncross

You forget Su-35 have wet fins which Su-57 don't have, also Su-35 don't have weapon bays which take space which would be used for fuel. Su-35 sting is fuel only, while Su-57 sting have not so small radar or jammer.

My source is I think was some official person which said that in interview, Su-57 carry less fuel but that doesn't have impact on range in fact in combat configuration range of Su-57 is noticable better compared to