SU-57: On hold for a decade

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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project458

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Unread post29 Jul 2018, 23:08

juretrn wrote:
SpudmanWP wrote:
juretrn wrote:What's this? A "what if" of a single-engine MiG-29?

What if.... the Soviets made a reliable engine :mrgreen:

Hey now... 400 hour engine life is fine! :mrgreen:



AL-41F1C on the Su-35 clocks 4,000 hours, but hey you "aviation experts" are welcome to think that Russia''s tech is still stuck in 80s :mrgreen:
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juretrn

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Unread post29 Jul 2018, 23:22

project458 wrote:AL-41F1C on the Su-35 clocks 4,000 hours, but hey you "aviation experts" are welcome to think that Russia''s tech is still stuck in 80s :mrgreen:

No, now it's mostly stuck in the 90's. Except for their semiconductor industry, which is stuck in a gulag somewhere.
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cobra321

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Unread post30 Jul 2018, 03:29

^ That's brave posting that video. That guy explains something that de-rated su 30 Indian piloted jets can do in maneuverability realm comparable to a certain Lockheed fighter jet. :

Mig 29 kill caught on tapeImage
Last edited by cobra321 on 30 Jul 2018, 06:30, edited 1 time in total.
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element1loop

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Unread post30 Jul 2018, 04:54

Image


This is actually a rare single-engine MiG32 'Steppe-Dart', which despite first appearances is claimed to be a very reliable ground-attack aircraft, shown here displaying its characteristic nose-down attitude. Also nick-named the 'Gopher', for not entirely clear reasons.

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project458

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Unread post30 Jul 2018, 07:19

lrrpf52 wrote:
juretrn wrote:AL-41F1C on the Su-35 clocks 4,000 hours, but hey you "aviation experts" are welcome to think that Russia''s tech is still stuck in 80s :mrgreen:


It turned out Russian fan blade, high pressure compressor, fuel pump, DEEC, actuator, and critical engine component technology was nowhere near the US or UK, but I guess that was all fixed overnight with the Su-35 motors.

Russian internal sources specifically state the Mean Time Between Overhaul for the AL-41F-1S is 1000hrs, with an engine planned life of 4,000 hours.




Overnight? There is full decade gap between AL-31 and Saturn AL-41F1S, and when it comes engine tech Russia has significantly closed the gap with the West, with izdeliye 30 they will mach the US and surpass everyone else, and China despite its bragging and boasting to this day still buys our engines in significant quantities.



Same thing with the PESA radar. MTBF nowhere near stated specs, along with many other avionics systems. Russia offered one-for-one replacements at full cost. This is typical Russian marketing 101, and all other prospective customers are watching how they will be treated by looking at the example of how Russia treats one of its largest FMS customers.


Russia already has two functioning AESA designs, both currently in flight testing and 1-3 years from mass production.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post30 Jul 2018, 08:05

If, I had a dollar for every Russia prediction that they got wrong. I could have retired 20 years ago......... :?
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knowan

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Unread post30 Jul 2018, 09:31

I'm always amused by people taking Russian claims at face value.

And lol at a UAV being counted as a 'kill'. What's next, counting MH17 as a 'kill' for the Buk for the purpose of claiming weapon effectiveness?
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popcorn

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Unread post30 Jul 2018, 10:37

Russia jumping a generation from 4++ to 6G? Magical. :mrgreen:
Too bad the US never learned that trick, could've gone from the Phantom to the Raptor and F-35. No need for all those Teen jets. :doh:
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
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Corsair1963

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Unread post30 Jul 2018, 10:38

popcorn wrote:Russia jumping a generation from 4++ to 6G? Magical. :mrgreen:
Too bad the US never learned that trick, could've gone from the Phantom to the Raptor and F-35. No need for all those Teen jets. :doh:




LOL
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Unread post30 Jul 2018, 16:09

"Are you surmising that development of the su 57 is going to stop ? We will cease to get updates from the program ? No more new pictures of the jet ? The new engine is going to be mothballed ??

No, but it's interesting that's where your mind went. Regardless of what the plan now is, come talk to me when you have a meaningful production run (50 or more airframes). Until then, you have an experiment, not a combat capable aircraft..


And if we do continue to get updates and evidence shows that development of the su 57 is continuing , what do you think is going on ?

That's a big IF. But IF they do produce such evidence, it still doesn't mean the result in a combat capable 5th gen fighter (oops, I mean 6th gen). We all watched the Mig I.44 go from paper airplane to prototype, first flight etc but where is it today? Likely the same place the SU-57 is going to wind up.. the sh!tter

Just another one of those narratives. Theres just as many countries with Mig 29's in service as F-16's yet the Mig 29 and 35 is dead. Just b/c ppl say it is

You got thoroughly exposed on this laugh line, so much so there's nothing I can add to it. I'll second the notion the Mig-29 was what amounted to manned target drones for our F-15, 16 pilots etc.. In before you claim they were all 2nd rate pilots flying downgraded versions...

Why can't you just state the truth about the SU-57? Russia has encountered major problems with it, as evidence by the only people that really know what's going on inside the program - the Indians (pulled out). Or did they do that because the SU-57 was a super stealthy Raptor killer, same as Russia is advertising it to be..?
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Unread post30 Jul 2018, 16:21

popcorn wrote:Russia jumping a generation from 4++ to 6G? Magical. :mrgreen:
Too bad the US never learned that trick, could've gone from the Phantom to the Raptor and F-35. No need for all those Teen jets. :doh:


LOL, indeed.

Having Raptors and F-35's would have been so cool in the mid-80's. If only the Russians would let us in on how they do it. I'm fairly certain is has a lot to do with smoke, mirrors and vodka - just unsure as to the amounts. Likely heavy on the vodka though, so I'll be starting there..
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Unread post30 Jul 2018, 18:38

lrrpf52 wrote:
juretrn wrote:Su-30MKIs with AL-41FP at Red Flag had such FOD sensitivity, that they had to schedule the sortie launch rates with consideration for the Su-30MKIs more than any other aircraft.


Al-31 is in Su-30MKI not Al-41 and Indians don't maintain their engines (at least back then) they send them in Russia so they didn't want any possible FOD to happen. Flanker have anti FOD mesh in intake btw but still they didn't want to risk. China on other hand got maintenance facility for Al-31, and later they invest half of billion dollars in facility so they extend engine life 1.5x times . Al-31 is cheap engine somewhere below 2 million per engine is what China is paying. Similar price India pay that is why they said new Al-41 is expensive, they would like minimum 4000h service life for less then 2 million?!?
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Unread post31 Jul 2018, 14:22

Those numbers are staggering...

The Mig-29 wasn't a bad design, certainly much better than the Mig-21's and 23's that it replaced. I thought the airframe was rather brilliant, but you need a lot more than an efficient airframe to make an effective point defense fighter. More than any other jet, the pilot/plane/weapons interface is dismal in the Mig-29, and even well trained pilots will be hamstrung by it.

In contrast the US teen series jets have it all: Efficient airframes, superior radar, much better weapons system/computer/pilot interface. The result is what you see here - every time F-15's and 16's fly, Mig-29's die. I'm no fan of the Super Hornet, but it's doubtful the situation would be any different there.

Russian jets look "as good". But once you peak under the hood serious deficiencies show up. And although the SU-27/Flanker series has yet to be combat tested, I'd lay good money they'd end up on the losing end of the fight as well. Great airframe, mediocre engine and falls down in avionics/weapons system integration.

If you really think about it, Russia hasn't produced a "total package" fighter in... a long time (Mig-15?). There's always something lacking, and it usually shows up at the worst time - in combat. The SU-57 is just the latest chapter in this sordid history, and to be honest it's coming up short in more areas than the Mig. Marginal stealth, in dire need of a 5th gen engine and questionable integrated avionics/situational awareness/weapons. But it's going to be a 6th gen wonder-bird, or so we're told. I won't be holding my breath. India sure isn't..

Perhaps they'll use it to down Cessna's too. "Combat proven" and all...
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Unread post01 Aug 2018, 00:35

Su-27's untested?
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Unread post01 Aug 2018, 13:53

madrat wrote:Su-27's untested?


There are a couple of way at looking at this IMO.

On the one hand, the robust numbers of the F-15/16 detailed here stand in stark contrast to the few air to air kills the Flanker holds over the Mig-29. On the other hand, the F-22 doesn't have any air to air kills.

But the Flanker has been in service since what, 1986? As well, its list of foreign operators is a long one..

1. Russia (USSR)
2. Algeria
3. Angola
4. Belarus
5. China
6. Eritrea
7. Ethiopia
8. India
9. Indonesia
10. Kazakhstan
11. Malaysia
12. Uganda
13. Ukraine
14. Uzbekistan
15. Venezuela
16. Vietnam

So it's hard to put a "combat proven/tested" label on it, at least in the air to air arena. A few Mig-29 kills over Africa isn't enough IMO. Now if it had put up a good showing in something like Desert Storm or Bosnia, etc... that's a different story. I don't think there's any question its a capable design. But the number of air to air engagements its partaken in is... amazingly low for an airframe that's been in service for the past 30 plus years, and in the air arms of well over a dozen countries.
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