SU-57: On hold for a decade

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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XanderCrews

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Unread post09 Jan 2018, 00:02

mas wrote:
Lol, not defending anything, just having an open mind and calling it like I find it. As a general rule though and in between all the propaganda the Western press will tell the Russians stuff their government doesn't want them to know and the Russian press will tell the West stuff their government doesn't want them to know. Bear that in mind and you can read sources from all round the world to get a more complete picture of what's happening.


Don't have a mind so open your brains fall out. You're saying we need to give propoganda a chance because open mindedness requires we give equal weight to bullshit under the guise that it runs counter to convention. What if the convention is the truth?

"Hey wait a minute guys, this is a conman and a liar with his own agenda, but let's listen as if he was a virtuous truth teller about our government"

Once someone has been proven to be a liar, and a ruthless and cunning one at that, your foolish to give his words validity
Last edited by XanderCrews on 09 Jan 2018, 00:03, edited 1 time in total.
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XanderCrews

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Unread post09 Jan 2018, 00:03

arian wrote:"In service" can mean anything. Their definition of in service is different from ours. They can surely have 5 planes in some operational test unit "very soon" and call that operational.

As for RT's credibility in non-political stuff, I guess it's no worst than most of Western press. Total garbage. They literally have an article right next to the one mas posted saying the PAK-FA will be able to shoot down missiles with lasers. So there's your credibility. So basically like reading WaPo.



I'd say the key difference between Russian state run media vs the west, is the West is basically incompetant, and biased. But it's not a state run propoganda arm
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arian

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Unread post09 Jan 2018, 00:31

XanderCrews wrote:I'd say the key difference between Russian state run media vs the west, is the West is basically incompetant, and biased. But it's not a state run propoganda arm


You don't have to be a state run, when you run yourself as the propaganda arm of a political party. In that sense, it's a lot worst than RT.

Intentional lies look a lot like incompetence if one assumes they are interested in reporting "the truth". But as Future President Oprah told us, they're only interested in telling you "their truth".
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zero-one

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Unread post09 Jan 2018, 11:41

XanderCrews wrote:


At only $50 million too. Amazing stuff. I'm so impressed. Especially about that article right next to it about laser shooting out of it. There is absolutely nothing Russia can't do better and cheaper. Nothing.

Except refrigerators.

As a capitalist I'm terrified. These guys haven't even been in the capitalism game 30 years and now hear they are. Beating us. We simply can't compete. Winning at our game!

We will all be flying on Russian built airliners that are as good but made for pennies on the dollar.

Goodnight sweet, Boeing


Great, except all their military aviation projects were supposed to be better, faster, deadlier and at the same time cheaper, easier to produce and maintain than their western counterparts.

Except its not, when the west finally get their hands on these planes, they are always underwhelmed. Yes there are aspects that are impressive, but mostly, there are a lot of negatives.

The Mig-15, Mig-21, Mig-25, Mig-29 and Su-27 all have the same story.
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XanderCrews

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Unread post09 Jan 2018, 21:30

zero-one wrote:
XanderCrews wrote:


At only $50 million too. Amazing stuff. I'm so impressed. Especially about that article right next to it about laser shooting out of it. There is absolutely nothing Russia can't do better and cheaper. Nothing.

Except refrigerators.

As a capitalist I'm terrified. These guys haven't even been in the capitalism game 30 years and now hear they are. Beating us. We simply can't compete. Winning at our game!

We will all be flying on Russian built airliners that are as good but made for pennies on the dollar.

Goodnight sweet, Boeing


Great, except all their military aviation projects were supposed to be better, faster, deadlier and at the same time cheaper, easier to produce and maintain than their western counterparts.

Except its not, when the west finally get their hands on these planes, they are always underwhelmed. Yes there are aspects that are impressive, but mostly, there are a lot of negatives.

The Mig-15, Mig-21, Mig-25, Mig-29 and Su-27 all have the same story.



Well thats the rub isn't it? The funniest things about the Russian just doing it better, faster, cheaper, is that they aren't even flooding their own markets with better faster cheaper stuff. its same same.

And BTW 50 million for a PAKFA? If thats true, and you combine that with all the amazing Russia Stronk Capability I'm told it brings, there is no reason to purchase a single Flanker of any variant ever again. According to good old Wiki, 40-65 million is the cost for an Su-35S. Su-57 is next gen and now "sixth gen" in 10 years. Su-57 should be in Serial production RIGHT NOW.

So things aren't adding up at all, but we knew that. On what planet do you "save" 10 million dollars by buying a far inferior product?

So Russia, managed to get the super capitalist game changing airplane, and then those super capitalists made a very non capitalist decision?

It was pointed out a few years ago by people in the know that even a "Mistake jet" Early LRIP F-35 was going to be superior to what it was replacing. Mind numbing that the Russians havn't figured this out.
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botsing

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Unread post09 Jan 2018, 22:04

mas wrote:Lol, not defending anything, just having an open mind and calling it like I find it.

The thief and the serial killer are both in jail, so morally they are the same right? :doh:

Western "news" media like Fox are capitalist corporations that want to increase profit, targeting a big and relative naive/impulsive audience is key to selling more advertisements, so consider their content made to attract such audience.

Russian "news" media like RT are government run propaganda tools to target a non-Russian population, so consider their content propaganda.

Don't pretend western media is on the same level as Russian propaganda, since they are not.
"Those who know don’t talk. Those who talk don’t know"
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Unread post10 Jan 2018, 06:51

arian wrote:
XanderCrews wrote:I'd say the key difference between Russian state run media vs the west, is the West is basically incompetant, and biased. But it's not a state run propoganda arm


You don't have to be a state run, when you run yourself as the propaganda arm of a political party. In that sense, it's a lot worst than RT.

Intentional lies look a lot like incompetence if one assumes they are interested in reporting "the truth". But as Future President Oprah told us, they're only interested in telling you "their truth".



Do you guys realize your talking about your political views?
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XanderCrews

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Unread post10 Jan 2018, 15:20

tincansailor wrote:
Do you guys realize your talking about your political views?


Do you realize we are talking about media bias with a throwaway sarcastic line about Oprah?

Apparently not. Please go away now before you do to this thread what You always do
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charlielima223

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Unread post10 Jan 2018, 22:52

botsing wrote:
mas wrote:Lol, not defending anything, just having an open mind and calling it like I find it.

The thief and the serial killer are both in jail, so morally they are the same right? :doh:

Western "news" media like Fox are capitalist corporations that want to increase profit, targeting a big and relative naive/impulsive audience is key to selling more advertisements, so consider their content made to attract such audience.

Russian "news" media like RT are government run propaganda tools to target a non-Russian population, so consider their content propaganda.

Don't pretend western media is on the same level as Russian propaganda, since they are not.


Having a government run media program means that freedom of press (no matter the view/opinion/story/content) WILL NOT EXIST. Media outlets like RT, Sputnik, and Pravada all have a very very obvious Pro-Russia slant where they perpetuate and over inflate themselves while demonizing the west (United States and NATO countries). US Media for the most part IS NOT government controlled. However their propaganda is more politically (left and right) driven then anything else rather then "Merica F-YEAH!".

back to the PAKFA...

The pace of the PAKFA have been glacier. Big whoop they tested a new engine that is finally comparable to the F-119 that was developed more than 20 years ago. They don't even have an AESA radar yet or matured avionics let alone done any substantial weapons tests. Yet I've seen Kremlin trolls claim the PAKFA will be a gen 5+ "stealth killer". I've said it in a comment section that the PAKFA is late to the party. Also, why is the Su-35 always being referred to a gen 4.5++ when it doesn't have an AESA radar or something comparable (that I know of) to link-16.
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Unread post11 Jan 2018, 15:42

You bring up some valid points about the SU-35 and SU-57.

SU-35 is 4.75 gen without an AESA, probably supercruise as well as stealth. The SU-57 may be a super-cruiser, but marginal stealth and god knows what's in the nose/weapons bays. The way they're selling it it comes across as a modern day firefox, but that's to be expected. And lol at $50 million a copy! So they're pumping out 5th gen birds for less than the cost of 4+ gen jets?

Something is seriously wrong with the technology, marketing or both.
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XanderCrews

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Unread post11 Jan 2018, 15:52

charlielima223 wrote:
botsing wrote:
mas wrote:Lol, not defending anything, just having an open mind and calling it like I find it.

The thief and the serial killer are both in jail, so morally they are the same right? :doh:

Western "news" media like Fox are capitalist corporations that want to increase profit, targeting a big and relative naive/impulsive audience is key to selling more advertisements, so consider their content made to attract such audience.

Russian "news" media like RT are government run propaganda tools to target a non-Russian population, so consider their content propaganda.

Don't pretend western media is on the same level as Russian propaganda, since they are not.


Having a government run media program means that freedom of press (no matter the view/opinion/story/content) WILL NOT EXIST. Media outlets like RT, Sputnik, and Pravada all have a very very obvious Pro-Russia slant where they perpetuate and over inflate themselves while demonizing the west (United States and NATO countries). US Media for the most part IS NOT government controlled. However their propaganda is more politically (left and right) driven then anything else rather then "Merica F-YEAH!".


Something like 90 percent of reporters identify as liberal, or left leaning. What happened the last 8 years was the left was so in the presidents pocket, they basically became a defacto government propoganda arm. GW was slayed for gitmo by the press for years, Obama used drone strikes to kill kids, "terrorists" and even occasionally Americans and the press barely mentioned it. I guess noble peace prize winners just do things like that! Lol.


He spent 1 trillion on "infrastructure" . In 2013 (after he was reelected) the press said American infrastructure was falling apart. Where did the money go? Why wasn't this reported in 2012?

It's a joke and an obvious one. It's not a matter of if but how much when 90 percent of your work force identify as liberal in a business where objectivity is considered a corner stone

Obama deported more immigrants than any other president in US history. We get crickets.

It's the same old story if this made you mad when guy X does it, why aren't you mad when guy Y does it? If not doing it made you like guy X why does guy Y not doing it bother you?

The saddest thing about Obama and the press giving him a pass, was the security state became the new normal. Obama could have peeled back a lot of unconstitutional measures and everyone could have gone "wow things got a bit crazy there! Back to normal now" instead he made them worse, weaponized the IRS, and put programs like PRISM in place. It's the new normal now. It's bipartisan bad. It's ok when our guy does it.

Press better use their voice before they lose it, and it will be a beloved lefty they never question that will do it
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XanderCrews

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Unread post11 Jan 2018, 16:25

mixelflick wrote:You bring up some valid points about the SU-35 and SU-57.

SU-35 is 4.75 gen without an AESA, probably supercruise as well as stealth. The SU-57 may be a super-cruiser, but marginal stealth and god knows what's in the nose/weapons bays. The way they're selling it it comes across as a modern day firefox, but that's to be expected. And lol at $50 million a copy! So they're pumping out 5th gen birds for less than the cost of 4+ gen jets?

Something is seriously wrong with the technology, marketing or both.



Thats what I'm screaming. It should all be Pakfas now

They are better and they cost less and they aren't buying them?

How did the West trick them into this
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Unread post12 Jan 2018, 16:25

I wish to make a prediction re SU-57...

The Russians won't be the first to buy and fly it: The UAE will. They're trying like hell to get the F-35, but you just know that isn't going to happen. The Saudi's are too, but they're unlikely to buy Russian equipment. Even before India (who I believe is goiing to pull the plug soon - for good). And when the UAE sees what they get for the $, it wouldn't surprise me if they return them!

They seem to be on the super sampler pack acquisition plan: F-16E/F's, F-18E/F SH's, Mirage 2000-9's, Advanced F-15's, Typhoon's. Everything except a bona fide 5th gen that can strike sensitive targets and/or hold them at risk. Would love to be a pilot there. But not a logistics guy!
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Unread post13 Jan 2018, 19:33

Wiki data about Su-35 price is export price, domestic price is lot lower:
http://www.deagel.com/Combat-Aircraft/S ... 20005.aspx
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XanderCrews

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Unread post14 Jan 2018, 01:18

milosh wrote:Wiki data about Su-35 price is export price, domestic price is lot lower:
http://www.deagel.com/Combat-Aircraft/S ... 20005.aspx



22 million?


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