J-20 goes operational

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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milosh

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Unread post16 Nov 2017, 17:18

I really don't see any significant acceleration of J-31, look J-20, dozen prototypes were build, and they delivered dozen J-20 to unit, while J-31 had only two prototypes very different to be clear. So they need to speed it up a lot to match J-20 development phase.

And there is engine problem.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post17 Nov 2017, 00:36

milosh wrote:I really don't see any significant acceleration of J-31, look J-20, dozen prototypes were build, and they delivered dozen J-20 to unit, while J-31 had only two prototypes very different to be clear. So they need to speed it up a lot to match J-20 development phase.

And there is engine problem.



The have produced several developmental (prototypes) J-31's. Including two of the recently redesign models pictured in the above postings. In addition what engines problems???
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disconnectedradical

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Unread post17 Nov 2017, 04:06

Isn't J-31/FC-31 made by Shenyang and not AVIC (Chengdu)?

Who said China has same requirements and goals as US?
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weasel1962

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Unread post17 Nov 2017, 06:43

There are only 2 J-31s sighted, both of which flew. The first sighted in 2012 was numbered “31001” which is not a unit but was suggested as a cheeky reference to 31 Oct. The second was sighted in late 2016 in LRIP yellow. No other units have been sighted (table top units for airshow displays excluded). As Milosh has pointed out, by this time of the J-20 development, there were a lot more J-20s already sighted.

There aren’t actually any engine issues associated with the RD-93. China bought quite a number for the JF-17 production and certainly no issues encountered since JF-17s are already into Block 3. Milosh is probably referring to the WS-13 Taishan engine development. It has taken quite a while and was slated for JF-17 use but Pakistan has not adopted this just yet. I think the 2nd J-31 is using the WS-13 engine which may explain the long timing difference between the 1st and 2nd J-31. The LRIP J-20s are using the AL-31F engines, not the indigenous engine so it might be a case of the Government prioritizing the J-20 program.

@DR - Shenyang aircraft corporation is a subsidiary of AVIC. So is Chengdu.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post17 Nov 2017, 07:08

disconnectedradical wrote:Isn't J-31/FC-31 made by Shenyang and not AVIC (Chengdu)?

Who said China has same requirements and goals as US?



YES


NOBODY
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Corsair1963

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Unread post17 Nov 2017, 07:34

weasel1962 wrote:There are only 2 J-31s sighted, both of which flew. The first sighted in 2012 was numbered “31001” which is not a unit but was suggested as a cheeky reference to 31 Oct. The second was sighted in late 2016 in LRIP yellow. No other units have been sighted (table top units for airshow displays excluded). As Milosh has pointed out, by this time of the J-20 development, there were a lot more J-20s already sighted.

There aren’t actually any engine issues associated with the RD-93. China bought quite a number for the JF-17 production and certainly no issues encountered since JF-17s are already into Block 3. Milosh is probably referring to the WS-13 Taishan engine development. It has taken quite a while and was slated for JF-17 use but Pakistan has not adopted this just yet. I think the 2nd J-31 is using the WS-13 engine which may explain the long timing difference between the 1st and 2nd J-31. The LRIP J-20s are using the AL-31F engines, not the indigenous engine so it might be a case of the Government prioritizing the J-20 program.

@DR - Shenyang aircraft corporation is a subsidiary of AVIC. So is Chengdu.



China has built two prototypes of the First Generation and Second Generation.


1st Generation (31001)

J-31E.jpg





2nd Generation (V2)*

j31L.jpg


*Note: Some sources have reported that another second generation J-31 has flown. Yet, I haven't see any credible sources to support that??? Nonetheless, V2 was powered by the WS-13E and a number of eyewitnesses state that it was totally smokeless...... :D
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Corsair1963

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Unread post17 Nov 2017, 07:41

BTW I never stated that the J-31 as far along in development or as mature as the J-20. I just simply stated that the J-31 is critical to the future of the PLAAF and PLAN....."IMHO"
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hornetfinn

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Unread post17 Nov 2017, 11:49

weasel1962 wrote:There aren’t actually any engine issues associated with the RD-93. China bought quite a number for the JF-17 production and certainly no issues encountered since JF-17s are already into Block 3. Milosh is probably referring to the WS-13 Taishan engine development. It has taken quite a while and was slated for JF-17 use but Pakistan has not adopted this just yet. I think the 2nd J-31 is using the WS-13 engine which may explain the long timing difference between the 1st and 2nd J-31. The LRIP J-20s are using the AL-31F engines, not the indigenous engine so it might be a case of the Government prioritizing the J-20 program.


I think there are several engine issues with the RD-93 specifically with J-31. Not that the engine itself is bad, but it's just a 1970s basic design with some modernization. It's not a 5th gen engine for 5th gen fighter. It has no stealth features and also gives J-31 rather poor T/W ratio, especially on dry thrust. While empty weight of J-31 is not known, it seems rather unlikely that it's lighter than F-35 for example.
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weasel1962

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Unread post17 Nov 2017, 12:09

hornetfinn wrote:
weasel1962 wrote:There aren’t actually any engine issues associated with the RD-93. China bought quite a number for the JF-17 production and certainly no issues encountered since JF-17s are already into Block 3. Milosh is probably referring to the WS-13 Taishan engine development. It has taken quite a while and was slated for JF-17 use but Pakistan has not adopted this just yet. I think the 2nd J-31 is using the WS-13 engine which may explain the long timing difference between the 1st and 2nd J-31. The LRIP J-20s are using the AL-31F engines, not the indigenous engine so it might be a case of the Government prioritizing the J-20 program.


I think there are several engine issues with the RD-93 specifically with J-31. Not that the engine itself is bad, but it's just a 1970s basic design with some modernization. It's not a 5th gen engine for 5th gen fighter. It has no stealth features and also gives J-31 rather poor T/W ratio, especially on dry thrust. While empty weight of J-31 is not known, it seems rather unlikely that it's lighter than F-35 for example.


Same goes for the AL-31F on the J-20. Its not easy to design a fifth gen engine.
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milosh

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Unread post18 Nov 2017, 17:12

weasel1962 wrote:Same goes for the AL-31F on the J-20. Its not easy to design a fifth gen engine.


But you can replace AL-31 with 117 or future Izd.30 engine that luxury you don't have with fighter which use RD-33 based engine.
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zoomie289

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Unread post09 Feb 2018, 10:17

Interesting tidbit on engine tech from China
https://sg.news.yahoo.com/china-talks-s ... 44775.html?

"China is in talks to sell Germany state-of-the-art machinery and technology critical in the manufacture of high-performance jet engines,"

I'm shocked to see them sell to Germany and not the other way around

Article also mentions a WS-15 engine thats planned for the J20
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sferrin

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Unread post09 Feb 2018, 14:26

zoomie289 wrote:Interesting tidbit on engine tech from China
https://sg.news.yahoo.com/china-talks-s ... 44775.html?

"China is in talks to sell Germany state-of-the-art machinery and technology critical in the manufacture of high-performance jet engines,"

I'm shocked to see them sell to Germany and not the other way around

Article also mentions a WS-15 engine thats planned for the J20


What's the last fighter turbine engine Germany produced? Exactly.
"There I was. . ."
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hornetfinn

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Unread post09 Feb 2018, 14:45

LOL at the idea that Germany would need jet engine technology from China. They have company like MTU Aero Engines AG, which is producing major parts for pretty modern engines like EJ200 and F414. Chinese companies have not produced anything better than copies of 1970s AL-31 and RD-33 really. It doesn't sound very plausible that they could offer anything for the Germans in this field. Maybe Chinese should try to sell their technology to P&W, GE and RR also? :wink:
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tsl256

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Unread post09 Feb 2018, 19:46

China declares that the J-20 is now actively deployed, and combat capable.

http://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomac ... ombat-duty
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weasel1962

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Unread post10 Feb 2018, 04:52

hornetfinn wrote:LOL at the idea that Germany would need jet engine technology from China. They have company like MTU Aero Engines AG, which is producing major parts for pretty modern engines like EJ200 and F414. Chinese companies have not produced anything better than copies of 1970s AL-31 and RD-33 really. It doesn't sound very plausible that they could offer anything for the Germans in this field. Maybe Chinese should try to sell their technology to P&W, GE and RR also? :wink:


Not really an issue. China has been manufacturing engine parts for quite some time. Chinese parts end up even in US aircraft over the years...

https://www.rt.com/news/us-air-force-co ... onics-879/
https://www.cnbc.com/2014/01/03/us-put- ... ogram.html

In this German case, its blades.
http://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/ ... gy-germany

Its a bit eye popping because one part that China was not known to have was good metallurgy (including Russian) leading to a shorter engine life. However, its easy to underestimate Chinese R&D but when the stats are analysed, its not really that surprising.

https://chinapower.csis.org/china-resea ... pment-rnd/
http://bruegel.org/2017/08/china-is-the ... owerhouse/
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