J-20 goes operational

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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milosh

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Unread post14 Feb 2018, 10:23

Corsair1963 wrote:
milosh wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:China already has the Su-35 is service. So, that would make a lot on sense. Assuming they can't overcome the issues with the WS-15??? That said, Russia needs money so badly. That I am sure they would be happy to sell China the izdeliye 30. When it's finally ready in about a decade. :wink:


Russians would be fools not to offer type 30 for export, it can be used in any Flanker and of course in J-20.




I am sure China would love that..... :wink:


It isn't easy to copycat engine only if you bought it. You need to know how most tricky parts are build. Russians sold them know how about Al-31 in past (so Chinese can maintain them) and that is how China got needed tech to copycat Al-31. But if you look their domestic WS-15 they have problems. They want mono crystal blades, old Al-31 didn't had them so Chinese need to find out how to mass produce them, and as we see they have troubles. So if Russia just sell them Type-30 I doubt they will be able to copycat it reasonable time frame. It is more logical to fix WS-15 and to use Type-30 as backup until WS-15 ready then to waste time and effort to copy something which is more advanced then WS-15.
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geforcerfx

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Unread post14 Feb 2018, 10:45

milosh wrote:
It isn't easy to copycat engine only if you bought it. You need to know how most tricky parts are build. Russians sold them know how about Al-31 in past (so Chinese can maintain them) and that is how China got needed tech to copycat Al-31. But if you look their domestic WS-15 they have problems. They want mono crystal blades, old Al-31 didn't had them so Chinese need to find out how to mass produce them, and as we see they have troubles. So if Russia just sell them Type-30 I doubt they will be able to copycat it reasonable time frame. It is more logical to fix WS-15 and to use Type-30 as backup until WS-15 ready then to waste time and effort to copy something which is more advanced then WS-15.


I don't know if I would use your example. Russia gave the engine info to the Chinese so they could maintain jets makes sense for 1990's China. Twenty teens china is becoming a engineering super power, the level of engineering experience and capabilities are 4-8 times what they were when China first got the flanker. If I was Russia I would see this as the cut off point for selling military tech to the Chinese. Russia might think the USA is some major threat, but we don't share a border, we don't out number Russia 10 to 1 and we have our own oil, China on the other hand.....
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madrat

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Unread post14 Feb 2018, 13:59

China is a burgeoning post-oil driver. Imagine what happens if China no longer needed their energy.
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milosh

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Unread post14 Feb 2018, 14:27

geforcerfx wrote:
milosh wrote:
It isn't easy to copycat engine only if you bought it. You need to know how most tricky parts are build. Russians sold them know how about Al-31 in past (so Chinese can maintain them) and that is how China got needed tech to copycat Al-31. But if you look their domestic WS-15 they have problems. They want mono crystal blades, old Al-31 didn't had them so Chinese need to find out how to mass produce them, and as we see they have troubles. So if Russia just sell them Type-30 I doubt they will be able to copycat it reasonable time frame. It is more logical to fix WS-15 and to use Type-30 as backup until WS-15 ready then to waste time and effort to copy something which is more advanced then WS-15.


I don't know if I would use your example. Russia gave the engine info to the Chinese so they could maintain jets makes sense for 1990's China. Twenty teens china is becoming a engineering super power, the level of engineering experience and capabilities are 4-8 times what they were when China first got the flanker. If I was Russia I would see this as the cut off point for selling military tech to the Chinese. Russia might think the USA is some major threat, but we don't share a border, we don't out number Russia 10 to 1 and we have our own oil, China on the other hand.....


East Siberia and Far East have small oil reserves in comparison with West Siberia and Urals. In south china sea you have same proven reserves as in E.Siberia (and much larger possible reserves).
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mixelflick

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Unread post14 Feb 2018, 20:35

If the Russians are ahead of the Chinese in engine tech, and they just started flying their 5th gen engine... gonna be a long road for the J-20 to truly be 5th gen.

What blows my mind is that 27 years ago we were flying the F-119/F-120 5th gen engines in the ATF prototypes. You never hear much about F-119 upgrades, but I have to believe its been happening? Why would we cede a 27 year lead in engine tech by standing still?

The J-20 looks more of threat than the SU-57, although I think it's going to be a good decade before they have the engines. By then, they'll be what, 1,000 plus F-35's? And PCA won't be far behind. Speaking of the F-35, you DO hear about an improved thrust/fuel efficient version coming down the pike.

But not the F-119? What am I missing here??
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botsing

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Unread post14 Feb 2018, 21:32

mixelflick wrote:Why would we cede a 27 year lead in engine tech by standing still?

Standing still? Jeez, you are on a roll again aren't you? :wink:

Let me spell a few acronyms for you (in alphabetical order) so you can get yourself educated:
* AATE
* ADVENT
* AETD
* ATEC
* EDE
* IHPTET
* ITEP
* LEAP
* VAATE

I also assume you have never heard of the F-135 engine? :devil:
"Those who know don’t talk. Those who talk don’t know"
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mixelflick

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Unread post15 Feb 2018, 15:39

Yes, yes. I'm aware of the F-135 and some of the enhancement programs you mentioned.

I was referring specifically to the F-119. Are these same upgrade/enhancement programs you're mentioning applicable to that engine?

If so, 'twasn't apparent to me...
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megui

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Unread post16 Feb 2018, 02:24

Hello you mean little guys across pacific ocean :)

Yep, J-20s are now in IOC
Yep, they're delivered to combat force
Nope, we're still way behind but chasing up

May the peace be with all of us :D
Cheerio

--from a mean little guy on chinese new year's day
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white_lightning35

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Unread post16 Feb 2018, 03:41

Hello you mean little guys across pacific ocean :)


How do you know where I am. :shock:

Yep, J-20s are now in IOC


Usain Bolt is faster than average. I am faster than average. Therefore I am as fast as Usain Bolt.

Yep, they're delivered to combat force


See above

Nope, we're still way behind but chasing up


Absolutely correct.

May the peace be with all of us :D
Cheerio


My local Chinese restaurant says I'm a rabbit, so I'm always peaceful. 8)

--from a mean little guy on chinese new year's day


Don't be so hard on yourself, and happy chinese new year.

P.S I think the only way your country will surpass my country is by us resting on our laurels. I have seen posters on here talk about how far behind you are, and how we don't need that much concern. I'll just say that thinking like that never ends well.
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mixelflick

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Unread post16 Feb 2018, 17:31

"Yep, J-20s are now in IOC

Usain Bolt is faster than average. I am faster than average. Therefore I am as fast as Usain Bolt..."

Brilliant!

:mrgreen:
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megui

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Unread post16 Feb 2018, 19:56

white_lightning35 wrote:P.S I think the only way your country will surpass my country is by us resting on our laurels. I have seen posters on here talk about how far behind you are, and how we don't need that much concern. I'll just say that thinking like that never ends well.


There's always one way or another like surpassing in domestic economy in foreseeable future. :mrgreen: Let's get a bit more serious, comparing R&D of aviation industry between superpowers is nothing like putting Usain Bolt and an average person in a sprint race. In the past Cold War Eagle was to Flanker as Usain is to the second place on podium. Now in the 5th gen club AVIC seems to be overtaking KnAAPO, it's not a big club after all. Considering they're making crappy 'MiG' J-7 and MiG-like J-8 in the late 90s, counterintuitive as it may seem, the Republic has gain enough defensive power(not offensive)-5th gen, CV(s), recently LRASM, GMD and so on- to prevent such humiliation as in Taiwan Strait two decades ago and others in the beginning of this century. :doh: Though optimistic I myself sometimes feel pessimistic when reading NASA's past researches on extreme AOA and vortex-ology, which have been done and implemented like thirty forty years ago. Not just Chengdu but Dassault, Saab, Sukhoi or MiG can replicate nothing but admire or even envy the complexity of FCS and aerodynamics on those US fighters. While minor details can be always absorbed quickly for example DSI yields same result with less effort with computer simulation, EODAS shares the same methodology as well. Lot of jabberish as I'm saying, hell yes it will still take years to decades for the rest of all to catch up, but promising still, at least for now.
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element1loop

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Unread post17 Feb 2018, 03:00

megui wrote:... hell yes it will still take years to decades for the rest of all to catch up, but promising still, at least for now.


Rushed into service with AL-31 proxy ... says it all.

Internet claimed figs:

Empty: 42,750 lb
Fuel Load: 25,000 lb
Empty + Full Fuel: 67,750 lb
Claimed Gross: 70,750 lb (i.e. 4,000 lb kit added)
MTOW: 80,000 lb
Implied Payload: 9,250 lb
Initial Engine Max Thrust: 64,000 lb (best case)

T:W @ MTOW = 0.80

Now, same starting condition @ 50% fuel burned:

T:W @ MTOW (- 50% Fuel load) = 0.944

Same start condition @ -50% fuel @ -50% payload:

T:W @ 50% payload (-50% Fuel load) = 1.02

That would be its approximately best T:W with an A2A loadout, at point of engagement.

(doubt there will be an F-35 tail-chase crisis)

They can re-engine, but I bet they need new-builds.

This is the prototype testing fleet.
Last edited by element1loop on 17 Feb 2018, 13:51, edited 1 time in total.
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vilters

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Unread post17 Feb 2018, 12:09

I hope for THEM that the above figures are incorrect.
IF they are true? They have a 3G airplane. (If the nose is pointing down. LOL.)
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juretrn

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Unread post17 Feb 2018, 20:22

megui wrote:In the past Cold War Eagle was to Flanker as Usain is to the second place on podium.

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say.
Russia stronk
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weasel1962

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Unread post28 Feb 2018, 04:35

weasel1962 wrote:Rather than seeing this from a western prism, it might actually help understand how the Chinese actually do it. This is not the first time a new aircraft is inducted. For example, the J-10 was first flown in year 1998. First production units was sent to 13th regiment in 2003 which was a test unit and then declared operational that same year. When “operational”, the planes are then transferred to a combat unit (in the J-10’s case, I think that was a regiment the 44th Division). How this is identified are thru serials (2 digit serials followed by 5 digit serials in test/combat units). The explanations of “insiders” in various forums further explain that once in the combat units, combat tactics are further developed and then become effectively combat ready which is roughly the western concept of IOC. I understand the combat readiness preparation process for the J-10 took about 2 years for the 1st unit and I note posters who mention that is repeated for the next unit etc (at much shorter times). It can also be noted that operational units start with initial versions with later units being equipped with later versions e.g. JH-7 then JH-7A (as well as the J-10 to J-10C units).

For the J-20. The first flight was noted in 2011. This was followed by 2 digit then 4 digit serials representing initial test units. The first production units (LRIP) were noted at end of 2016 with 5 digit serials (78xxx) = 176 brigade (since PLAAF has converted from regiments to brigades known as the “brigadization” process), That is where we are today and estimations are from 10-20 units have been produced. It is still unclear whether brigades are the same size as the previous regiments but regiments used to have 28 aircraft (doesn’t seem that the PLAAF operate using BAI/PAI concepts). The timeline does roughly correlate to what happened with the J-10. It is noted that the “operational” announcement was made in March this year. If it follows the J-10 timeline, it does suggest that the first combat unit could be noted in 2017-2018 and unit IOC by 2020.


Consistent with the above timeline, I just wanted to highlight that the J-20 is now noted this month by scramble in 9th brigade which is a combat unit.
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