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Re: J-20 goes operational

Unread postPosted: 10 Feb 2018, 16:45
by mixelflick
tsl256 wrote:China declares that the J-20 is now actively deployed, and combat capable.

http://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomac ... ombat-duty


Ummm... is that really possible? It seems like they moved real fast from testing to "combat capable". Either they're rushing things or it sailed through testing with few bugs. Then again, perhaps my perspective is tainted due to seeing the F-22 and -35 suffer from protracted and painful development periods..

Re: J-20 goes operational

Unread postPosted: 10 Feb 2018, 19:18
by rheonomic
mixelflick wrote:Ummm... is that really possible? It seems like they moved real fast from testing to "combat capable". Either they're rushing things or it sailed through testing with few bugs. Then again, perhaps my perspective is tainted due to seeing the F-22 and -35 suffer from protracted and painful development periods..


They don't have the same testing standards we do. I'm pretty sure the JSF program included the most extensive test program for a fighter aircraft to date.

The Chinese are also willing to accept more risk than we are.

Re: J-20 goes operational

Unread postPosted: 10 Feb 2018, 19:57
by count_to_10
rheonomic wrote:
mixelflick wrote:Ummm... is that really possible? It seems like they moved real fast from testing to "combat capable". Either they're rushing things or it sailed through testing with few bugs. Then again, perhaps my perspective is tainted due to seeing the F-22 and -35 suffer from protracted and painful development periods..


They don't have the same testing standards we do. I'm pretty sure the JSF program included the most extensive test program for a fighter aircraft to date.

The Chinese are also willing to accept more risk than we are.

I’m still impressed that the F-35 hasn’t killed any pilots yet.
Would we even know if the Chinese test program produced casualties?

Re: J-20 goes operational

Unread postPosted: 10 Feb 2018, 21:29
by rheonomic
count_to_10 wrote:I’m still impressed that the F-35 hasn’t killed any pilots yet.


Hopefully with the eventual Auto GCAS and Auto ACAS integration we can keep it that way as long as possible.

count_to_10 wrote:Would we even know if the Chinese test program produced casualties?


Almost certainly not.

Re: J-20 goes operational

Unread postPosted: 11 Feb 2018, 20:32
by popcorn
An unflattering assessment of the J-20 focusing on troublesome WS-15 gestation. Opinion that it may take another 8 year's to debug the engine and mass produce.
Also speculation on Japan's interest in F-35B for Izumo-class to counter J-15s which are deemed 10X less capable than the JSF.

http://m.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy- ... ed-service

Re: J-20 goes operational

Unread postPosted: 12 Feb 2018, 01:08
by nn8734
popcorn wrote:An unflattering assessment of the J-20 focusing on troublesome WS-15 gestation. Opinion that it may take another 8 year's to debug the engine and mass produce.
Also speculation on Japan's interest in F-35B for Izumo-class to counter J-15s which are deemed 10X less capable than the JSF.

http://m.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy- ... ed-service


So by time the Chicoms get their sh*t together with the WS15, the J20 will have to deal with not just F35s by the gross but F22s and Penetrating Counter Air and the Navy’s sixth gen. That said, hopefully Pratt and GE have taken the necessary steps to prevent Chinese thievery of classified engine tech info/data.

Re: J-20 goes operational

Unread postPosted: 12 Feb 2018, 07:30
by Corsair1963
popcorn wrote:An unflattering assessment of the J-20 focusing on troublesome WS-15 gestation. Opinion that it may take another 8 year's to debug the engine and mass produce.
Also speculation on Japan's interest in F-35B for Izumo-class to counter J-15s which are deemed 10X less capable than the JSF.

http://m.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy- ... ed-service



Honestly, I don't see it as a big issue at least not short-term. As the J-20 can use the WS-10B or WS-10 IPE or AL-31F or possibly even the AL-41F-1S (i.e. 117S) Which, should be adequate to the task.......

Re: J-20 goes operational

Unread postPosted: 12 Feb 2018, 12:14
by hornetfinn
weasel1962 wrote:
hornetfinn wrote:LOL at the idea that Germany would need jet engine technology from China. They have company like MTU Aero Engines AG, which is producing major parts for pretty modern engines like EJ200 and F414. Chinese companies have not produced anything better than copies of 1970s AL-31 and RD-33 really. It doesn't sound very plausible that they could offer anything for the Germans in this field. Maybe Chinese should try to sell their technology to P&W, GE and RR also? :wink:


Not really an issue. China has been manufacturing engine parts for quite some time. Chinese parts end up even in US aircraft over the years...

https://www.rt.com/news/us-air-force-co ... onics-879/
https://www.cnbc.com/2014/01/03/us-put- ... ogram.html


Some magnets and counterfeit electronics components are not really high tech. There are probably Chinese made parts (genuine and counterfeit) in very many military (and civilian) products, mainly because they tend to be cheap and good enough in many cases.

weasel1962 wrote:In this German case, its blades.
http://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/ ... gy-germany


But that's exactly the kind of technology that German manufacturers are very good at and Chinese companies have struggled for decades. Even the Chinese Comac C919 airliner uses engines from CFM and not Chinese engines (I know that they might start using those at some point as they are in development). Chinese operational (military or civilian) engines are not very impressive compared to engines that German manufacturers work with. Also German companies could easily buy proven technology from USA, France and UK for example.

weasel1962 wrote:Its a bit eye popping because one part that China was not known to have was good metallurgy (including Russian) leading to a shorter engine life. However, its easy to underestimate Chinese R&D but when the stats are analysed, its not really that surprising.

https://chinapower.csis.org/china-resea ... pment-rnd/
http://bruegel.org/2017/08/china-is-the ... owerhouse/


Sure, I don't dismiss China at all and they are getting better and better. However they still have a long way to go before they are really competitive with Western technology.

Re: J-20 goes operational

Unread postPosted: 12 Feb 2018, 12:45
by popcorn
Corsair1963 wrote:
popcorn wrote:An unflattering assessment of the J-20 focusing on troublesome WS-15 gestation. Opinion that it may take another 8 year's to debug the engine and mass produce.
Also speculation on Japan's interest in F-35B for Izumo-class to counter J-15s which are deemed 10X less capable than the JSF.

http://m.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy- ... ed-service



Honestly, I don't see it as a big issue at least not short-term. As the J-20 can use the WS-10B or WS-10 IPE or AL-31F or possibly even the AL-41F-1S (i.e. 117S) Which, should be adequate to the task.......


Would you feel the same if the Raptor had to make do with F100/F101 engine tech?

Re: J-20 goes operational

Unread postPosted: 12 Feb 2018, 19:45
by milosh
Corsair1963 wrote:
popcorn wrote:An unflattering assessment of the J-20 focusing on troublesome WS-15 gestation. Opinion that it may take another 8 year's to debug the engine and mass produce.
Also speculation on Japan's interest in F-35B for Izumo-class to counter J-15s which are deemed 10X less capable than the JSF.

http://m.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy- ... ed-service



Honestly, I don't see it as a big issue at least not short-term. As the J-20 can use the WS-10B or WS-10 IPE or AL-31F or possibly even the AL-41F-1S (i.e. 117S) Which, should be adequate to the task.......


I wouldn't be surprise we see some Salyut engine developed for Chinese based on Al-41F3.

Re: J-20 goes operational

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2018, 04:08
by Corsair1963
milosh wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:
popcorn wrote:An unflattering assessment of the J-20 focusing on troublesome WS-15 gestation. Opinion that it may take another 8 year's to debug the engine and mass produce.
Also speculation on Japan's interest in F-35B for Izumo-class to counter J-15s which are deemed 10X less capable than the JSF.

http://m.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy- ... ed-service



Honestly, I don't see it as a big issue at least not short-term. As the J-20 can use the WS-10B or WS-10 IPE or AL-31F or possibly even the AL-41F-1S (i.e. 117S) Which, should be adequate to the task.......


I wouldn't be surprise we see some Salyut engine developed for Chinese based on Al-41F3.


China already has the Su-35 is service. So, that would make a lot on sense. Assuming they can't overcome the issues with the WS-15??? That said, Russia needs money so badly. That I am sure they would be happy to sell China the izdeliye 30. When it's finally ready in about a decade. :wink:

Re: J-20 goes operational

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2018, 12:38
by milosh
Corsair1963 wrote:China already has the Su-35 is service. So, that would make a lot on sense. Assuming they can't overcome the issues with the WS-15??? That said, Russia needs money so badly. That I am sure they would be happy to sell China the izdeliye 30. When it's finally ready in about a decade. :wink:


Russians would be fools not to offer type 30 for export, it can be used in any Flanker and of course in J-20.

Re: J-20 goes operational

Unread postPosted: 14 Feb 2018, 06:11
by Corsair1963
milosh wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:China already has the Su-35 is service. So, that would make a lot on sense. Assuming they can't overcome the issues with the WS-15??? That said, Russia needs money so badly. That I am sure they would be happy to sell China the izdeliye 30. When it's finally ready in about a decade. :wink:


Russians would be fools not to offer type 30 for export, it can be used in any Flanker and of course in J-20.




I am sure China would love that..... :wink:

Re: J-20 goes operational

Unread postPosted: 14 Feb 2018, 06:59
by element1loop
Corsair1963 wrote:
milosh wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:China already has the Su-35 is service. So, that would make a lot on sense. Assuming they can't overcome the issues with the WS-15??? That said, Russia needs money so badly. That I am sure they would be happy to sell China the izdeliye 30. When it's finally ready in about a decade. :wink:


Russians would be fools not to offer type 30 for export, it can be used in any Flanker and of course in J-20.


I am sure China would love that..... :wink:



We are the CHICOM - You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile. Your engine and its technological distinctiveness will be added to our own.

Re: J-20 goes operational

Unread postPosted: 14 Feb 2018, 07:47
by Corsair1963
element1loop wrote:We are the CHICOM - You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile. Your engine and its technological distinctiveness will be added to our own.



:lmao: