Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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disconnectedradical

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Unread post10 Jan 2020, 15:20

So, on Secret Projects forums they found a December 2019 JASDF paper which showed the latest F-3 design.

https://www.mod.go.jp/j/yosan/yosan_gai ... 191220.pdf

Looks quite like YF-23.
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sferrin

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Unread post10 Jan 2020, 15:53

Aside from a butterfly tail and looking gray it looks nothing like a YF-23. Looks more like LM's 6th-gen concept and Dassault's knockoff.

https___api_thedrive_com_wp-content_uploads_2017_09_hdhdh1414.jpg


h_55277846-800x450.jpg
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disconnectedradical

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Unread post10 Jan 2020, 16:06

Another aspect that it's similar to YF-23 is the intakes seem to be under the fuselage, instead of at the side like the Lockheed 6th generation fighter and Dassault NGF.

But the F-3 concept does seem to combine a lot of different features together.
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Unread post11 Jan 2020, 14:26

disconnectedradical wrote:Another aspect that it's similar to YF-23 is the intakes seem to be under the fuselage, instead of at the side like the Lockheed 6th generation fighter and Dassault NGF.

But the F-3 concept does seem to combine a lot of different features together.


It's quite interesting how some of the YF-23A's features have lived on in aircraft like the SU-57, some 6th gen US aerospace designs and these foreign sixth gen concepts. I personally feel we're going to see is bigger, badder version of the YF-23A when the PCA designs are finalized.

If you've watched any documentaries on the YF-23A's losing bid, you saw people working on the project that were absolutely crushed. They were apparently spending almost 1 million/day as the program drew toward the USAF decision date, and many of the engineers were spending every waking hour on making it the best it could be. Then, came the devastating phone call - you lose.

Hopefully, some of those engineers that worked on the YF-23A see this as some sort of vindication...
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Unread post12 Jan 2020, 06:34

mixelflick wrote:
If you've watched any documentaries on the YF-23A's losing bid, you saw people working on the project that were absolutely crushed. They were apparently spending almost 1 million/day as the program drew toward the USAF decision date, and many of the engineers were spending every waking hour on making it the best it could be. Then, came the devastating phone call - you lose.

Hopefully, some of those engineers that worked on the YF-23A see this as some sort of vindication...


Both teams had put their heart and soul into their product. If the YF-23 was selected over the YF-22, you would hear the Lockheed team say and feel the same way.

I dont take concept designs with much seriousness. Concept designs/art is usually attempting to make the most futuristic or eye catching design they can. I am sure they had some input from actual aeronautic engineers at some point but they are attempting to sell a product that isnt even built and is all in theory right now. Anyone remember this?
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Unread post12 Jan 2020, 16:35

charlielima223 wrote:
mixelflick wrote:
If you've watched any documentaries on the YF-23A's losing bid, you saw people working on the project that were absolutely crushed. They were apparently spending almost 1 million/day as the program drew toward the USAF decision date, and many of the engineers were spending every waking hour on making it the best it could be. Then, came the devastating phone call - you lose.

Hopefully, some of those engineers that worked on the YF-23A see this as some sort of vindication...


Both teams had put their heart and soul into their product. If the YF-23 was selected over the YF-22, you would hear the Lockheed team say and feel the same way.

I dont take concept designs with much seriousness. Concept designs/art is usually attempting to make the most futuristic or eye catching design they can. I am sure they had some input from actual aeronautic engineers at some point but they are attempting to sell a product that isnt even built and is all in theory right now. Anyone remember this?
Image


I sure do! Built 2 models that looked like this: One was Testor's "F-19", and another that looked a lot more like this concept art. Can't recall who made that one but they were fun to build, especially after seeing ads appear in Aviation Week at the time..

I didn't mean to imply the YF-22 team didn't put their heart and soul into it too. Fortunately for them, they won and then won again with what is today their real money-maker, the F-35. Precisely how long LM keeps winning fighter contracts is anyone's guess tho..

EDIT: Testors did in fact make the "F-19" stealth fighter, albeit there are important differences in appearance here vs. your pic. Monogram made a "stealth fighter" not long after that better resembles this pic.

Some interesting commentary on each here! https://hushkit.net/2018/05/25/the-f-19 ... eal-world/
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Unread post13 Jan 2020, 04:05

"disconnectedradical"

So, on Secret Projects forums they found a December 2019 JASDF paper which showed the latest F-3 design.




Just a concept............ :bang:
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disconnectedradical

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Unread post14 Jan 2020, 04:03

Corsair1963 wrote:"disconnectedradical"

So, on Secret Projects forums they found a December 2019 JASDF paper which showed the latest F-3 design.




Just a concept............ :bang:


It can still show clues on where their design is going. For a long time they have been switching back and forth between V-tail and conventional tail from 23DMU to 25DMU, so it’s interesting to see where they go next.
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Unread post14 Jan 2020, 04:46

disconnectedradical wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:"disconnectedradical"

So, on Secret Projects forums they found a December 2019 JASDF paper which showed the latest F-3 design.




Just a concept............ :bang:


It can still show clues on where their design is going. For a long time they have been switching back and forth between V-tail and conventional tail from 23DMU to 25DMU, so it’s interesting to see where they go next.



Yes, but odds are Japan will join with a partner or partners to develop a future 6th Generation Program. Which, likely will include the US....
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sferrin

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Unread post16 Jan 2020, 14:46

mixelflick wrote:
disconnectedradical wrote:Another aspect that it's similar to YF-23 is the intakes seem to be under the fuselage, instead of at the side like the Lockheed 6th generation fighter and Dassault NGF.

But the F-3 concept does seem to combine a lot of different features together.


It's quite interesting how some of the YF-23A's features have lived on in aircraft like the SU-57, some 6th gen US aerospace designs and these foreign sixth gen concepts. I personally feel we're going to see is bigger, badder version of the YF-23A when the PCA designs are finalized.

If you've watched any documentaries on the YF-23A's losing bid, you saw people working on the project that were absolutely crushed. They were apparently spending almost 1 million/day as the program drew toward the USAF decision date, and many of the engineers were spending every waking hour on making it the best it could be. Then, came the devastating phone call - you lose.

Hopefully, some of those engineers that worked on the YF-23A see this as some sort of vindication...


Probably - in China's new JH-XX:

https://www.airforcetimes.com/flashpoin ... r-project/

Daf_9IVW4AA6HaT.jpg
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Unread post16 Jan 2020, 15:56

sferrin wrote:
Probably - in China's new JH-XX:


That is CGI superimposed on the real photo of a model:

https://www.airway1.com/wp-content/uplo ... 50x500.jpg
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Corsair1963

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Unread post30 Jan 2020, 03:40

disconnectedradical wrote:So, on Secret Projects forums they found a December 2019 JASDF paper which showed the latest F-3 design.

https://www.mod.go.jp/j/yosan/yosan_gai ... 191220.pdf

Looks quite like YF-23.



Man this get's old....Honestly, how many times do we have to repeat this???? The X-2/F-3 is "DEAD" and has been dead for sometime now.


Japan will develop a future "6th Generation Fighter" with a partner or partners. With the US being the most likely option...


QUOTE:

US or UK? Japan Nears Decision On Partner For Next-Gen Fighter

By Rieko Miki


TOKYO --- Japan plans to choose a partner as early as this summer for development of its successor to the F-2 fighter jet, weighing a proposal from the U.S., its closest ally, against a British offer that would give Tokyo greater control.

The Defense Ministry prefers to have Japan take the lead on the project -- something it has not done with fighter jet development since World War II -- to maintain the foundation of the country's defense industry and fortify the Self-Defense Forces' capabilities.

The ministry aims to have the majority of the jet developed domestically, including core components such as the engine, and envisions deployment in the mid-2030s. The proposed defense budget for the fiscal year starting in April earmarks 11.1 billion yen ($102 million) for work on the new plane.

Tokyo looks to "advance international cooperation" with the project while also "ensuring a degree of freedom for future upgrades and performance improvements," Defense Minister Taro Kono said.

Working with another country would do more than provide access to crucial technological expertise. With development costs for a single plane model potentially running into the tens of billions of dollars, a partnership would give Tokyo a built-in overseas marketing channel to help with the large-scale production and sales needed to ensure the project is financially viable.

The U.S. is now seen as the more likely option, given the importance placed on the bilateral alliance. The Air Self-Defense Force fleet now consists largely of U.S.-developed planes, including the F-35 stealth fighter, in part because compatibility with American equipment has been seen as a priority.

Lockheed Martin has sounded out Tokyo about creating a hybrid of the F-22 and the F-35, and Boeing has expressed interest as well.

But partnering with the U.S. may not fit well with Tokyo's desire for Japanese-led development.

While Japan and America worked together on the F-2, design details for key parts have not been disclosed to the Japanese side. And Tokyo cannot upgrade the planes freely, which has limited their usability.

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Aerosp ... en-fighter
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Unread post30 Jan 2020, 04:29

What the TS doesn't realize is that the F-3 designation that most people commonly use for the next gen stealth fighter program that Japan is pursuing because that designation has not been officially dropped by the Japanese....one could of course use F-X but that's the same as every other F-X out there...No one is talking about the X-2 which is merely a technical demo.

Its like claiming there is no F-35 because Boeing lost the comp. Some in Boeing might still feel that way....
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Unread post30 Jan 2020, 04:35

The F-3 is dead regardless how some want to spin it....



The future 6th Generation Fighter Program is nothing but general concepts. While, looking for partner or partners. To jointly develop a fighter down the road.


BTW The X-2 was a "Demonstrator" for future technologies to be incorporated into the F-3.
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Unread post30 Jan 2020, 16:03

Corsair1963 wrote:The F-3 is dead regardless how some want to spin it....



The future 6th Generation Fighter Program is nothing but general concepts. While, looking for partner or partners. To jointly develop a fighter down the road.


BTW The X-2 was a "Demonstrator" for future technologies to be incorporated into the F-3.


Agree 100%.

These countries just don't have the $, expertise or manufacturing tolerances to mass produce a 5th gen fighter, nevermind a 6th gen. It's as if other nations have caught SU-57 fever. How on earth do you mass produce a 5th/6th gen fighter, without ever even producing sub-generations of aircraft? Crazy.

I realize China is mass producing a "5th gen" in the J-20. But noone anywhere has proven it has the supercruise, VLO all aspect stealth, integrated avionics etc. that truly define the F-22. To my eye, it may have some but not all of those. Sure, they stole a lot of info on the F-35 (and maybe others), but stealing and copying are poor substitutes for real expertise that can be taught, replicated and improved upon by other brilliant minds.

These other "6th gen" proposals... very few will proceed past the mock up/model stage. A few will produce airworthy vehicles, but sticker shock and endless coding issues will kill them every time... long before any enemy aircraft will.
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